Election

[Tab]

No one is forcing anyone to eat Halal meat, there is no FORCING involved as some claim, if it is difficult to find non-Halal meat, it is probably your problem to deal with, not a muslims problem.



The Baron

I case it wasn't clear, I agree with you.

All the best,
Tab

[Herlock Sholmes]

It is clear to everyone here that you have. Muslims make up 25% of the population, and you have called them ALL fundies, and you have condemned what they ALL believe in - no matter how diverse - a danger and a threat.

I have said no such thing. Dishonesty comes from every post you make.

You keep jumping back and forth between to completely separate talking points: either there are elements within the group that are dangerous - in other words, the danger is not Islam but rather these fringe elements - and that's what you claim to be saying here.... Or, the danger is Islam itself, which creates these elements, in which case ALL Muslims are ticking bombs. And that, I dare say, is more in line with your way of thinking. But it that's your poison, then you absolutely cannot claim that you never condemned 25% of the population.

I can. Because you are not telling the truth again.

Yes, of course they believe that - but THEY don't believe the Quran says what YOU believe it says. That's just the thing. Like I pointed out, even pro LGBTQ+ Christians believe the Bible is inerrant, the absolute word of God... they just interpret it differently from the fundies. When YOU read the Quran, all you read is BLOOD BLOOD BLOOD. That's because you cherry pick the very worst of the worst, and interpret the surahs in the worst possible light. Muslims, on the other hand, cherry pick in a completely different way: they interpret the surahs in the best possible light, and pick the best of the best.

"But if they believe it's ALL true..."

Of course they do. But the Quran, just like the Bible, is full of contradictions. So in order to make it all fit, you have to interpret some verses to mean something different than the text would imply on its own. Either it should be read in such and such context, or it's a metaphor, or... something. There is more than plenty - in the Quran and Bible alike - for bellicose people to find justification for war and hate, but there is also more than plenty for peaceful people to find comfort in the fact that their god wants peace and love. Religion is what you make it.

I’ve explained. Get someone to explain it to you if it’s too complex because I’m not going through it again.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No one is forcing anyone to eat Halal meat, there is no FORCING involved as some claim, if it is difficult to find non-Halal meat, it is probably your problem to deal with, not a muslims problem.



The Baron

It should be closed down immediately and without discussion. If someone goes into Tesco’s and wants to get a joint of meat cut then he has to either buy Halal or go elsewhere. In England.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Anyone who has seen anything of the processes of the meat industry, whether via documentaries, news outlets, YouTube or first hand, know the horrible conditions the vast majority of animals go through whilst alive, let alone when they are slaughtered. Whether or not the animal is stunned via gas or electricity before a bolt to the head, their throat is cut and they are hung upside down to bleed out. Whether the stunning itself is used to kill them before their throat is cut and hung upside down. Or whether their throat is simply cut and they hung upside down to bleed out. It's all horrific. They all involve the animal sometimes still being alive when their throat is cut or head cut off in the case of some chickens. The twitching and convulsing as Herlock described. Are there levels of how 'humane' inhumane is, maybe. For me personally, it is a distinction without a difference. There is already an enormous amount of cognitive dissonance involved for the meat eater. I know what the animals I eat go through, I still choose to eat meat.

I should also point out that for somewhere between 60% and 90% of Halal meat sold in the UK, the animal was stunned first before having their throat cut. The animals used for Tesco's own brand Halal meat for example were all stunned before being killed.

Now before I get jumped on, I understand Herlocks point that if you do actually have a moral concern about how these animals are killed, then being forced to eat meat killed in this way is not okay. Now, do I think that anyone is being forced, not for a second. Do I think that there is anyone who has genuine concern over how the animals for Halal meat are killed as opposed to these more "humane" methods - quite possibly, and these people should not be forced to eat Halal meat. Are there people who simply object to Halal meat based solely on the fact that it has something to do with Muslims - quite possibly. These people should also not be forced to eat Halal meat, even if their reasons are questionable.

All the best,
Tab

If Tesco wish to sell Halal meat then it should be sold in a certain areas of the store. In every store there is a section selling Asian quisine items, or Italian quinine items or Mexican quisine items. The main, in fact the only, butcher in my Tesco is a purely Halal butcher. It shouldn’t be. I object because of the cruelty and simply because it’s Halal. How could this occur? As soon as someone even suggested it the answer should have been a resounding ‘no.’ No discussion required.

[Wickerman]

do you know anything about the ethnicity and motivation of the perpetrators?

As I've said before, I don't think it is an ethnic problem, Islam is a religion not a race.
It is more of an attitude problem, and more common with radical followers of Islam.
As I was able to watch the riot in colour, it was obvious there were no Jews involved, or Hindu's involved, few if any Christians involved.
Ah, let me think, who's left?

As for motivation, we have no clue yet.
Nothing to affect Muslims directly that I heard.

Early news reports said a Romany child had been taken to hospital with a "non-accidental head injury".
Unconfirmed reports suggested a child had been thrown from a window.
Unconfirmed reports also said the father claimed the child had fallen over.
Child care had shown up to remove four other children from the house.....that's when the riot kicked off.

What has that to do with Muslims?

[The Baron]

Anyone who has seen anything of the processes of the meat industry, whether via documentaries, news outlets, YouTube or first hand, know the horrible conditions the vast majority of animals go through whilst alive, let alone when they are slaughtered. Whether or not the animal is stunned via gas or electricity before a bolt to the head, their throat is cut and they are hung upside down to bleed out. Whether the stunning itself is used to kill them before their throat is cut and hung upside down. Or whether their throat is simply cut and they hung upside down to bleed out. It's all horrific. They all involve the animal sometimes still being alive when their throat is cut or head cut off in the case of some chickens. The twitching and convulsing as Herlock described. Are there levels of how 'humane' inhumane is, maybe. For me personally, it is a distinction without a difference. There is already an enormous amount of cognitive dissonance involved for the meat eater. I know what the animals I eat go through, I still choose to eat meat.

I should also point out that for somewhere between 60% and 90% of Halal meat sold in the UK, the animal was stunned first before having their throat cut. The animals used for Tesco's own brand Halal meat for example were all stunned before being killed.

Now before I get jumped on, I understand Herlocks point that if you do actually have a moral concern about how these animals are killed, then being forced to eat meat killed in this way is not okay. Now, do I think that anyone is being forced, not for a second. Do I think that there is anyone who has genuine concern over how the animals for Halal meat are killed as opposed to these more "humane" methods - quite possibly, and these people should not be forced to eat Halal meat. Are there people who simply object to Halal meat based solely on the fact that it has something to do with Muslims - quite possibly. These people should also not be forced to eat Halal meat, even if their reasons are questionable.

All the best,
Tab

No one is forcing anyone to eat Halal meat, there is no FORCING involved as some claim, if it is difficult to find non-Halal meat, it is probably your problem to deal with, not a muslims problem.



The Baron

[Karl]

And you need to learn to read. I have not condemned 25% of the world’s population…ever; a fact which should be clear to all.

It is clear to everyone here that you have. Muslims make up 25% of the population, and you have called them ALL fundies, and you have condemned what they ALL believe in - no matter how diverse - a danger and a threat.

What I have done is to point out a problem that exists within that 25% (which I can’t put a figure on) That it exists is too obvious to require explanation so either you are massively misunderstanding the obvious or you are doing the usual thing - you are deliberately turning a blind eye.

You keep jumping back and forth between to completely separate talking points: either there are elements within the group that are dangerous - in other words, the danger is not Islam but rather these fringe elements - and that's what you claim to be saying here.... Or, the danger is Islam itself, which creates these elements, in which case ALL Muslims are ticking bombs. And that, I dare say, is more in line with your way of thinking. But it that's your poison, then you absolutely cannot claim that you never condemned 25% of the population.

The quotes that I used in the above post were simply examples of the opinions of ordinary, everyday Muslims from different walks of life (the ones that you suddenly don’t want to listen to), which showed that they believed that the Quran should not be questioned because it is the perfect word of god.

Yes, of course they believe that - but THEY don't believe the Quran says what YOU believe it says. That's just the thing. Like I pointed out, even pro LGBTQ+ Christians believe the Bible is inerrant, the absolute word of God... they just interpret it differently from the fundies. When YOU read the Quran, all you read is BLOOD BLOOD BLOOD. That's because you cherry pick the very worst of the worst, and interpret the surahs in the worst possible light. Muslims, on the other hand, cherry pick in a completely different way: they interpret the surahs in the best possible light, and pick the best of the best.

"But if they believe it's ALL true..."

Of course they do. But the Quran, just like the Bible, is full of contradictions. So in order to make it all fit, you have to interpret some verses to mean something different than the text would imply on its own. Either it should be read in such and such context, or it's a metaphor, or... something. There is more than plenty - in the Quran and Bible alike - for bellicose people to find justification for war and hate, but there is also more than plenty for peaceful people to find comfort in the fact that their god wants peace and love. Religion is what you make it.

[Tab]

From The Guardian, 2 May 2023

"Campaigners say the pictures – the first of their kind to be obtained in a UK abattoir – show the “utterly inhumane” nature of using CO₂ to stun pigs before being killed"

“The pigs in the video react to the first inhalation of carbon dioxide with fear and obvious discomfort,” said Donald Broom, an animal welfare professor at the University of Cambridge. “They try to escape but cannot. The gasping can be seen in all pigs where the mouth is visible. Gasping indicates poor welfare. The period of poor welfare continues until the pig loses consciousness.”


One way to avoid eating Halal meat is to stick to pork!

Wait... Pigs suffer this "utterly inhumane" killing, go vegetarian!



The Baron

Anyone who has seen anything of the processes of the meat industry, whether via documentaries, news outlets, YouTube or first hand, know the horrible conditions the vast majority of animals go through whilst alive, let alone when they are slaughtered. Whether or not the animal is stunned via gas or electricity before a bolt to the head, their throat is cut and they are hung upside down to bleed out. Whether the stunning itself is used to kill them before their throat is cut and hung upside down. Or whether their throat is simply cut and they hung upside down to bleed out. It's all horrific. They all involve the animal sometimes still being alive when their throat is cut or head cut off in the case of some chickens. The twitching and convulsing as Herlock described. Are there levels of how 'humane' inhumane is, maybe. For me personally, it is a distinction without a difference. There is already an enormous amount of cognitive dissonance involved for the meat eater. I know what the animals I eat go through, I still choose to eat meat.

I should also point out that for somewhere between 60% and 90% of Halal meat sold in the UK, the animal was stunned first before having their throat cut. The animals used for Tesco's own brand Halal meat for example were all stunned before being killed.

Now before I get jumped on, I understand Herlocks point that if you do actually have a moral concern about how these animals are killed, then being forced to eat meat killed in this way is not okay. Now, do I think that anyone is being forced, not for a second. Do I think that there is anyone who has genuine concern over how the animals for Halal meat are killed as opposed to these more "humane" methods - quite possibly, and these people should not be forced to eat Halal meat. Are there people who simply object to Halal meat based solely on the fact that it has something to do with Muslims - quite possibly. These people should also not be forced to eat Halal meat, even if their reasons are questionable.

All the best,
Tab

[Karl]

Not a good example, Jews knew their fate if they did not do what they were told.

Jews were never told to join the NSDAP, and verily the vast majority did not.

With a gun to your head, wouldn't you bury your sympathies?

There were quite a number of Jewish members early on, before Hitler became chancellor. They felt that the anti-semittic elements was just fluff to attract more of the right wing, something that wouldn't really matter in the long run. No guns were held to their heads - until they were herded into camps.

That aside, today there are Jews supporting the Hamas led pro-palestine protestors, but again that is not ethnic, it is polical.

Indeed. Important distinction, though: they are protesting against their own government, and sympathise with the Palestinian population. It's not Hamas they sympathise with.

[Wickerman]

There is nothing on the BBC home page and nothing on the 'more top stories' page either. There is a story about it being the hottest day of the year though so that is something.

Exactly, there are some who will refuse to believe the BBC are averse to anything that might reflect poorly on the govt. - who are they kidding?
Well, we know who.....

[Wickerman]

Councillor Salma Arif was interviewed last night, being from the area she declined to identify the perpetrators saying: "..I wouldn't like to demonize any particular group until the investigation is complete, but I would like to say it was a group of young Muslims who brought buckets of water to try put the fire out".

She knows exactly who was responsible, or she wouldn't have felt inclined to point out young Muslims doing something positive.

Isn't it a shame that the rest of the Muslims didn't carry buckets of water, instead of cigarette lighters, then they may not have been able to set fire to the bus in the first place!
Just a thought...

So, why did hundreds of Muslims inject themselves into the Romany vs Authorities dispute anyway?

Answers on a postcard please.....

[The Baron]

From The Guardian, 2 May 2023

"Campaigners say the pictures – the first of their kind to be obtained in a UK abattoir – show the “utterly inhumane” nature of using CO₂ to stun pigs before being killed"

“The pigs in the video react to the first inhalation of carbon dioxide with fear and obvious discomfort,” said Donald Broom, an animal welfare professor at the University of Cambridge. “They try to escape but cannot. The gasping can be seen in all pigs where the mouth is visible. Gasping indicates poor welfare. The period of poor welfare continues until the pig loses consciousness.”


One way to avoid eating Halal meat is to stick to pork!

Wait... Pigs suffer this "utterly inhumane" killing, go vegetarian!



The Baron

[Geddy2112]

do you know anything about the ethnicity and motivation of the perpetrators?

Leeds seems to have had something to do with a family having children removed, you can see on the videos their ethnicity. Same with the Whitechapel, 'Two groups of men faced off, throwing projectiles at each other, in an episode the Met believes is linked to protests in Bangladesh.'

[Svensson]

The boards are remarkably quiet after those shocking "interracial" riots in Leeds & Whitechapel last night.

Has the chicken come home to roust?

do you know anything about the ethnicity and motivation of the perpetrators?

[Geddy2112]

The boards are remarkably quiet after those shocking "interracial" riots in Leeds & Whitechapel last night.

Has the chicken come home to roust?

There is nothing on the BBC home page and nothing on the 'more top stories' page either. There is a story about it being the hottest day of the year though so that is something.