New Atheist Billboards in California:"I Believe in Humanity, Not god"

[Fleetwood Mac]

I agree with FM: it is indeed a DULL world when we look to science for all the answers.

If we had looked to God instead, just think how many of us would now be savouring the same unending joys of raging toothache - to name but one example - that our ancestors did?

Love,

Caz
X

When God said the meek shall inherit the earth, I think he was talking of a far greater proposition than tooth comfort.

And, Dawkins is a far worse affliction to bestow upon anyone, and this why there probably isn't a God: he wouldn't have created Dawkins and it follows thus the untold suffering among millions of people having to listen to his bottomless pit of shite.

Personally, I hope there is a God. I hope he's sat in a Jacuzzi full of angels and looking down laughing at Dawkins.

[Sam Flynn]

he wouldn't have created Dawkins and it follows thus the untold suffering among millions of people having to listen to his bottomless pit of shite.

Corrections & Clarifications

"bottomless pit of shite" should have read "authoritative opinion backed by decades of scholarship and empirical research"

[Fleetwood Mac]

Corrections & Clarifications

"bottomless pit of shite" should have read "authoritative opinion backed by decades of scholarship and empirical research"

He's a biologist.

More to the point, the greatest minds in history have searched for the answers and haven't found them: greater minds than Dawkins.

[Ally]

Does anyone else notice the faith-based make vague, generalized and completely unsupported statements and attempt to pass that off as reasoned discourse?

Such as "the greatest minds in history have searched for the answers and haven't found them". Which is a statement so vague as to be nonsensical.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Does anyone else notice the faith-based make vague, generalized and completely unsupported statements and attempt to pass that off as reasoned discourse?

Such as "the greatest minds in history have searched for the answers and haven't found them". Which is a statement so vague as to be nonsensical.

Are you sure?

First off: I'm not "faith based". I really don't care whether or not there's a God, nor whether or not Dawkins is God.

Secondly, are you remotely anywhere near a human being with a fully functioning mind? You would be the first person on the entire planet to suggest that we fully understand ourselves and the world around us.

[Ally]

I have never said that we fully understand the world around us. What I don't do is make generalizations like great minds have searched for "the answers" and haven't found them. The answers to what? Specificity is helpful if you actually intend to have a reasoned discussion. The greatest minds in history have found "the answers" to quite a lot of things actually, so your statement is not only puzzling, but completely inane.

For example do you know that scientists have proven that the sun is not a flaming chariot drawn across the sky by a dude in a toga? And that the earth is not in fact the center of our solar system around which everything revolves. And what makes people sick is not in fact demons that possess your body bent on doing evil but in fact little tiny microorganisms that in some cases can be successfully defended against.

The greatest minds in history have come up with quite a bit of answers actually. You seem to think that because they are still looking for answers to some questions instead of giving up and calling it voodoo, it's indicative of failure as a whole.

A very unrealistic position. Especially when you take into account the great leaps science has made in a relatively brief window of time.

[Sam Flynn]

He's a biologist.

Biology is a science and, as such, it advances by means of scholarship and objective research. Dawkins, as a leading biologist, is well-practiced in both capacities.

the greatest minds in history have searched for the answers and haven't found them

True, but some have got closer than others. One might compare Ptolemy of Alexandria and Johannes Kepler and their theories of planetary motion; or Newton and Einstein on gravity. I'm sure nobody would criticise Ptolemy or Newton, both brilliant men, for somehow "failing to find the answer".

[Tom_Wescott]

Biology is a science and, as such, it advances by means of scholarship and objective research. Dawkins, as a leading biologist, is well-practiced in both capacities.
True, but some have got closer than others. One might compare Ptolemy of Alexandria and Johannes Kepler and their theories of planetary motion; or Newton and Einstein on gravity. I'm sure nobody would criticise Ptolemy or Newton, both brilliant men, for somehow "failing to find the answer".

I saw Sam on TV last night for the first time. He talks cool.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Errata]

Sorry, that's not in the Bible. Therefore, that's pure speculation.
You would think that god or Jesus would forsee the problem with the master plan himself and put forth the solution in his treatise on salvation. Of course Jesus also thought he was coming back in a few decades, so maybe he didn't plan to save the whole world regardless and really was a dick condemning everyone on the planet not in his small pocket to everlasting damnation. Or maybe he was just a really, really bad planner.

Well the omniscient, omnipresent all merciful god is one theory. It sure gets a lot of play. On the other hand god could be my Uncle Mark who is so out of touch that he apologizes profusely to doors when he runs into them without even attempting to open them. Last time I saw him he asked the door if it needed to sit down.

They say that great power comes with great responsibility, but that's not true at all. It should... but it often doesn't. People think that a god should be everything but thats really a modern notion. The Greek Pantheon were gods in that they were immortal, but they were characterized as shallow ill tempered humans who pack a hell of a punch. You didn't pray to Zeus. You bribed him to leave you alone. And the Norse, Celtic, Babylonian, etc. gods are the same way. And that was the running theory on godhood until Christianity. Judaism was a little different, but it wasn't about love and benevolence. It was an alliance. So this modern idea of a god who is everything to all people is pretty new.

So in essence, yeah. God could have the foresight of a lemming.

[Ally]

Yes, but I specifically asked Christians of the protestant sort, who believe that a) everyone is not only capable of reading the Bible and interpreting it for themselves but that they are required to and B) in that merciful omniscient, all-powerful god. Which is why I said Christians not Catholics and those who believe in Jesus as the sole and direct line to salvation, as opposed to the intercedence of the church.

So what other people's interpretations/views on god are isn't really relevant.

[Robert]

Hi Errata

I hear what you're saying about the Jewish god, but surely the Jews draw a line? For instance, I bet they would reject the following propositions :

The Holocaust happened while Jehovah was laid up with a 12 year dose of flu. By the time he got out of bed it was too late.

In the beginning Jehovah created the world, but he got it wrong and had to scrap it. He got through several worlds and wasn't happy with any of them, but finally plumped for the current one because he was too exhausted to try any more.

When Einstein came up with his General Theory of Relativity, Jehovah said, "Oh, so that's the answer! I was on the wrong track completely!"

[caz]

When God said the meek shall inherit the earth, I think he was talking of a far greater proposition than tooth comfort.

The fact that you believe this to be a direct quote from God himself is really quite worrying, FM. But you appear to concede that it's the scientists - not God - who cared enough to address the horrors of toothache, TB etc, however dull you find that thought.

And, Dawkins is a far worse affliction to bestow upon anyone, and this why there probably isn't a God: he wouldn't have created Dawkins and it follows thus the untold suffering among millions of people having to listen to his bottomless pit of shite.

I'm sorry you feel that you or anyone else is 'having' to listen to Dawkins. No wonder there's never a dull moment for you, with Dawkins inside your head, filling it with shite whenever God looks the other way.

Love,

Caz
X

[Errata]

Hi Errata

I hear what you're saying about the Jewish god, but surely the Jews draw a line? For instance, I bet they would reject the following propositions :

The Holocaust happened while Jehovah was laid up with a 12 year dose of flu. By the time he got out of bed it was too late.

In the beginning Jehovah created the world, but he got it wrong and had to scrap it. He got through several worlds and wasn't happy with any of them, but finally plumped for the current one because he was too exhausted to try any more.

When Einstein came up with his General Theory of Relativity, Jehovah said, "Oh, so that's the answer! I was on the wrong track completely!"

Well, when I asked a very similar question in my youth I was told specifically "Your guess is as good as mine".

We don't know. We don't particularly try to know. While Jews certainly have a mystical thread running through them, we tend to be pretty practical. We don't really ask, and we certainly don't expect an answer. Whatever god was back in the day, he is not that now. We don't say things like "The Lord works in mysterious ways." We only have the old Testament, so god works in loud and obvious ways. Bit of a drama queen really.

Maybe after the destruction of the second Temple he decided that he had lived up to his bargain and clocked out until the end of days. Maybe he never had the power to effect our lives in small ways. Maybe he could only do the big showy stuff. Maybe he doesn't care. Never really cared. Maybe he's dead. Maybe he found a nice goddess, settled down somewhere, has godlets that he's raising and doesn't have time for pets.

We think he's probably a shoot first and ask questions later kind of god, which is why the destroying the earth thing got a little out of hand. I would be surprised if he had the flu during the Holocaust, but I can't swear it didn't happen. Some people think we offended him somehow,and that why he didn't do anything. Some people think he didn't care enough to save those people. Some people think that he sent armies to save us, but didn't count on their total lack of concern for the fate of the Jews. Some people think that he was powerless to save us. Some people see it as proof he doesn't exist. Some people think he just wasn't around to save anybody.

And maybe one day he looked down at all he had made, and sort of wondered how he did it, and he gave us Einstein to give him some answers. Or maybe he got tired of our persistent inability to figure it out, and came to us as Einstein to get the ball rolling. Or maybe god laughed uproariously at Einstein and thought to himself "Wait til you see the guy I've got coming in 200 years. He' going to make you look like an alchemist"

Jews have a little more rigid view of god than I do. My mom read us Joseph Campbell and world myths at the same time we were learning Judaism, so my Sister and I ended up a little more flexible in our imaginings than out peers. Jews picture his current behavior in the context of the old testament. I picture him in just about every context if that makes sense. Would Jews reject your premises? Emotionally, yes. They just wouldn't believe that. But intellectually they would likely accept it as a good a reason as any. It's not like we know after all. In the absence of any evidence of any reason, every reason is as likely as the next. Including the idea that there is no god, and never was.

Which is why many Jews are atheists, and see no contradiction in that. In fact despite my being the least observant Jew in the family, I'm the only one who believes in some kind of god. As my father says, it doesn't say anywhere that we have to believe in a god. Just that if we do believe in one, it has to be this particular god. Which is an attitude that probably explains why many Jews are lawyers.

[Robert]

I like it.

[Sam Flynn]

I saw Sam on TV last night for the first time. He talks cool.

Thank'ee, Tom.