New Atheist Billboards in California:"I Believe in Humanity, Not god"

[Fleetwood Mac]

I'm not sure I understand the last two posts. If a comparison is sought, then look no further than the Kingdom of Heaven, which is supposed to be a blessed place without suffering. And if one needs evil in order to have good, then is god capable of evil? Most Christians would say not.

Actually I do believe that virtue isn't worth much without evil - as did Nietzsche. But then Freddie and I aren't Christians.

Robert,

I reckon the argument would go that in order to appreciate what is good in this world then you must have acts/incidents that are termed 'evil'.

[Robert]

I'm not sure I understand the last two posts. If a comparison is sought, then look no further than the Kingdom of Heaven, which is supposed to be a blessed place without suffering. And if one needs evil in order to have good, then is god capable of evil? Most Christians would say not.

Actually I do believe that virtue isn't worth much without evil - as did Nietzsche. But then Freddie and I aren't Christians.

[Ginger]

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able
Then He is not omnipotent.

If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.

If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?

If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?

Epicurus is pretty easily answered. A god who makes it impossible for his creatures to do evil also makes it impossible for them to do good. The choices we make, and the intentions behind those choices, rather than their outcomes, determine our moral natures. That's a logical answer whether one believes in a god or not.

A much harder question for believers to answer is why God would allow apparently needless pain. When you break your arm, for instance, the disabling pain serves an obvious purpose. How, though, may one account for chronic pain that has no protective purpose?

[Fleetwood Mac]

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able
Then He is not omnipotent.

If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.

If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?

If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?

Don't be so sure. It would be lackadaisical to think we have the answers. To which world do we compare ourselves with? Any option can only be evaluated by comparison. And, how do we know what is good unless we have evil? A false dichotomy to many, but I think you get my point.

[Wickerman]

Riddle of Epicurus - ca. 300 BCE

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able
Then He is not omnipotent.

If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.

If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?

If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Ally,

It was an attempt at humour. Not my best effort by a long chalk, but please, now and again, discern the literal from the light hearted.

I've already laid it out but for the benefit of the hard of hearing I'll go round the houses again.

I think there probably isn't a God; I tend to be a 'seeing is believing' type of person. Having said that, I have no problem with religion. I hold no truck with the 'religion is the root of all evil' philosophy, and I use the word 'philosophy' liberally here because it really is base animal ignorance to suggest such a thing.

Christian virtues hold merit. It's a philosophy that allows people to dream; it instructs that it's nice to be nice; it tacitly and explicitly encourages order in this world. Now, these are all qualities and beliefs that I myself practice in the real world away from a keyboard. It follows thus I can appreciate the values of Christianity. Someone will pipe up on about the 'untold destruction at the hands of Christianity' and to be frank I couldn't even be bothered to counter such a notion. In the event that is your opinion, then no bother; it's not mine.

And, yes, in all seriousness I prefer people who follow a religion to atheists. It's only a preference I have and certainly not worth into going into a decline over, nor fighting with all the other dogs.

[Magpie]

Here's my person "War on Xmas" story from a couple of years ago.

I was involved in a (I though minor) issue at work concerning religious holidays. Each year my employer releases a list of religious holidays from various religions, and adherents are permitted to take up to two "discretionary" days to observe their holidays. Glancing over the list, I noticed that will even minority religions like Scientology, Wicca, etc. were included, Taoism was not. So I went to my supervisor, who is also my union rep (and coincidentally a devout Catholic) to ask why such an extensive list had such an obvious omission, and was promptly blown off. So I went to my manager and asked the same thing, and she didn't know, told me she'd look into it. Many weeks and several frustrating discussions with HR later, my employer came up with a compromise solution--they wouldn't change the official list, but if any Taoists requested the time, it would be treated as if it were on the list. No biggie, score one for diversity and move on.

Shortly after this, in the midst of Xmas season, I'm working merrily away, and I look up and everyone's missing. Then they start reappearing with heaping plates of food and start noshing away in their cubies. I ask my supervisor what's going on and she informs me that today was the annual pot-luck lunch. I quickly check my email--nothing--and I ask if there was a memo sent out. Her reply "Oh, I didn't send you a copy--I didn't think you'd be interested."

I've known this woman for about 15 years. I've never refused to participate in the Xmas potluck (or any Xmas activity that doesn't require me to dress up as anything or sing). And while my atheism was hardly a secret, my religion had never come up at work until that summer's issue (which wasn't that much of an issue). Even that was so low-key that if I hadn't be required to take it to her first, she'd never have known about it.

From that day I was more or less shut out of virtually all Xmas activities at work (excepting those that involve extorting money in the name of charity).

[Ally]

First off: I'm not "faith based".

Whereas God says: "Come with me, there's milk and honey, and angels sat in bath tubs half naked; happiness abounds, pleasures for everyone, no petty squabbling and bickering, and there are no scientists because small extinct creatures are resurrected and there's no need for their humourless kind".

It's God for me, any day of the week.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I'm sorry you feel that you or anyone else is 'having' to listen to Dawkins. No wonder there's never a dull moment for you, with Dawkins inside your head, filling it with shite whenever God looks the other way.

Love,

Caz
X

It is a blight, Caz, and thanks for the concern. I haven't heard nor seen of him for a while so things are looking up. Maybe he's found God and is keeping his head down for a while before announcing the unthinkable.

Anyway, it's just that God is far more interesting than Dawkins.

Dawkins says: "There is no God and anyone who believes in God is a lunatic, come with me and we'll analyse a 3,000 year old pebble in an attempt to find traces of a stick insect that lived a billion years ago. There won't be a trace of humour; just me relentlessly ranting about God, small stones and pointless extinct creatures".

Whereas God says: "Come with me, there's milk and honey, and angels sat in bath tubs half naked; happiness abounds, pleasures for everyone, no petty squabbling and bickering, and there are no scientists because small extinct creatures are resurrected and there's no need for their humourless kind".

It's God for me, any day of the week.

[Sam Flynn]

I saw Sam on TV last night for the first time. He talks cool.

Thank'ee, Tom.

[Robert]

I like it.

[Errata]

Hi Errata

I hear what you're saying about the Jewish god, but surely the Jews draw a line? For instance, I bet they would reject the following propositions :

The Holocaust happened while Jehovah was laid up with a 12 year dose of flu. By the time he got out of bed it was too late.

In the beginning Jehovah created the world, but he got it wrong and had to scrap it. He got through several worlds and wasn't happy with any of them, but finally plumped for the current one because he was too exhausted to try any more.

When Einstein came up with his General Theory of Relativity, Jehovah said, "Oh, so that's the answer! I was on the wrong track completely!"

Well, when I asked a very similar question in my youth I was told specifically "Your guess is as good as mine".

We don't know. We don't particularly try to know. While Jews certainly have a mystical thread running through them, we tend to be pretty practical. We don't really ask, and we certainly don't expect an answer. Whatever god was back in the day, he is not that now. We don't say things like "The Lord works in mysterious ways." We only have the old Testament, so god works in loud and obvious ways. Bit of a drama queen really.

Maybe after the destruction of the second Temple he decided that he had lived up to his bargain and clocked out until the end of days. Maybe he never had the power to effect our lives in small ways. Maybe he could only do the big showy stuff. Maybe he doesn't care. Never really cared. Maybe he's dead. Maybe he found a nice goddess, settled down somewhere, has godlets that he's raising and doesn't have time for pets.

We think he's probably a shoot first and ask questions later kind of god, which is why the destroying the earth thing got a little out of hand. I would be surprised if he had the flu during the Holocaust, but I can't swear it didn't happen. Some people think we offended him somehow,and that why he didn't do anything. Some people think he didn't care enough to save those people. Some people think that he sent armies to save us, but didn't count on their total lack of concern for the fate of the Jews. Some people think that he was powerless to save us. Some people see it as proof he doesn't exist. Some people think he just wasn't around to save anybody.

And maybe one day he looked down at all he had made, and sort of wondered how he did it, and he gave us Einstein to give him some answers. Or maybe he got tired of our persistent inability to figure it out, and came to us as Einstein to get the ball rolling. Or maybe god laughed uproariously at Einstein and thought to himself "Wait til you see the guy I've got coming in 200 years. He' going to make you look like an alchemist"

Jews have a little more rigid view of god than I do. My mom read us Joseph Campbell and world myths at the same time we were learning Judaism, so my Sister and I ended up a little more flexible in our imaginings than out peers. Jews picture his current behavior in the context of the old testament. I picture him in just about every context if that makes sense. Would Jews reject your premises? Emotionally, yes. They just wouldn't believe that. But intellectually they would likely accept it as a good a reason as any. It's not like we know after all. In the absence of any evidence of any reason, every reason is as likely as the next. Including the idea that there is no god, and never was.

Which is why many Jews are atheists, and see no contradiction in that. In fact despite my being the least observant Jew in the family, I'm the only one who believes in some kind of god. As my father says, it doesn't say anywhere that we have to believe in a god. Just that if we do believe in one, it has to be this particular god. Which is an attitude that probably explains why many Jews are lawyers.

[caz]

When God said the meek shall inherit the earth, I think he was talking of a far greater proposition than tooth comfort.

The fact that you believe this to be a direct quote from God himself is really quite worrying, FM. But you appear to concede that it's the scientists - not God - who cared enough to address the horrors of toothache, TB etc, however dull you find that thought.

And, Dawkins is a far worse affliction to bestow upon anyone, and this why there probably isn't a God: he wouldn't have created Dawkins and it follows thus the untold suffering among millions of people having to listen to his bottomless pit of shite.

I'm sorry you feel that you or anyone else is 'having' to listen to Dawkins. No wonder there's never a dull moment for you, with Dawkins inside your head, filling it with shite whenever God looks the other way.

Love,

Caz
X

[Robert]

Hi Errata

I hear what you're saying about the Jewish god, but surely the Jews draw a line? For instance, I bet they would reject the following propositions :

The Holocaust happened while Jehovah was laid up with a 12 year dose of flu. By the time he got out of bed it was too late.

In the beginning Jehovah created the world, but he got it wrong and had to scrap it. He got through several worlds and wasn't happy with any of them, but finally plumped for the current one because he was too exhausted to try any more.

When Einstein came up with his General Theory of Relativity, Jehovah said, "Oh, so that's the answer! I was on the wrong track completely!"

[Ally]

Yes, but I specifically asked Christians of the protestant sort, who believe that a) everyone is not only capable of reading the Bible and interpreting it for themselves but that they are required to and B) in that merciful omniscient, all-powerful god. Which is why I said Christians not Catholics and those who believe in Jesus as the sole and direct line to salvation, as opposed to the intercedence of the church.

So what other people's interpretations/views on god are isn't really relevant.