School Bus Driver Fired for Praying on Bus

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac,

I am not going to get into an argument about the founding fathers. Some have argued that they were indeed Christians but others argue that they were in fact Deists. But the fact remains, that they did not include Christianity in the founding documents of the U.S.

You are correct that during the Civil War the South did believe that they were defending U.S. ideals. But lets not forget that they were slaveholders and that they defended the practice by turning to the Bible. So much for Christian ideals.

And as for Dawkins, look how ugly this thread has turned. Why? Simply because of religion.

Last year where I live (Washington, D.C.) a group put up posters in the subway system at Christmas time saying that there might not be a God so be good to your neighbors for goodness sake. And some religious people got all jacked out of shape. Imagine being kind to your neighbors without being ordered to do so by God. What a concept.

c.d.

Hello c.d.,

Well maybe it's for another thread. Perhaps the founding fathers made no mention to Christianity because there was no need to: it was a given.

This thread ugly? You Americans are far too civil and courteous. By English standards ugliness hasn't got going yet!

As for slaveholding, again for another thread but it seems to me that they were continuing along a path that was well trodden by the North and by Europeans, so perhaps they felt the goal posts had been shifted rather than unique in their position on the matter.

Anyway, the bus driver. Good on him. This world is turning into a P.C. mess where we must be the same and that is everyone beholden to all things secular and woe be tied you if you step out of line.

[Errata]

Hello c.d.,

Well maybe it's for another thread. Perhaps the founding fathers made no mention to Christianity because there was no need to: it was a given.

I'm just going to ignore the fact that you have addressed no point that I have made regarding prayer from an outsiders perspective. I can't make you think that's important. But for the love of god...

The reason no mention was made of Christianity and the freedom of religion was in the very first amendment was because Thomas Jefferson wrote to the committee and argued for it very convincingly. And continued arguing against it in every federal document. And the Continental Congress agreed with him. It wasn't simply some slip, or an assumption. It was an active rejection.

Which is something that can be discovered through spending less than 5 minutes time Googling it. I'm just saying, this is not one of those mysteries lost in the haze of time. This is known. At which point you can either accept or reject the opinions of the founding fathers, but arguing that their feelings were not known when I saw the letters on an 8th grade Washington trip is just disingenuous. Especially when you don't even try to find out.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I'm just going to ignore the fact that you have addressed no point that I have made regarding prayer from an outsiders perspective. I can't make you think that's important. But for the love of god...

The reason no mention was made of Christianity and the freedom of religion was in the very first amendment was because Thomas Jefferson wrote to the committee and argued for it very convincingly. And continued arguing against it in every federal document. And the Continental Congress agreed with him. It wasn't simply some slip, or an assumption. It was an active rejection.

Which is something that can be discovered through spending less than 5 minutes time Googling it. I'm just saying, this is not one of those mysteries lost in the haze of time. This is known. At which point you can either accept or reject the opinions of the founding fathers, but arguing that their feelings were not known when I saw the letters on an 8th grade Washington trip is just disingenuous. Especially when you don't even try to find out.

Well, Errata, I wasn't aware you'd posted on the thread. It wasn't a conscious choice to ignore you. Believe me, you are important and I would never discard anything you say.

It was hardly earth shattering news, anyway. John Locke had successfully argued for religious tolerance and this was put into practice in England a century earlier, so merely an idea built upon an idea. But, a good idea all the same.

But none of this negates the sentiments of Americans, and in my limited experience I was left with the impression that the United States believes itself to be a Christian country. Could be wrong though and you'd know better. What's that expression: "In God We Trust". Out of sheer curiosity, which God?

[Limehouse]

Take a point and argue the case. Who would have thought it eh? The self-proclaimed rational left-wing types full of love and charity resorting to petty squabbling.

Julie, you're not exactly winning hearts and minds here.

Seriously? The person who finds it difficult to write a single post (on almost any topic) without using the term 'left-wing' in a derogatory way?

Listen to yourself!!

[Fleetwood Mac]

Seriously? The person who finds it difficult to write a single post (on almost any topic) without using the term 'left-wing' in a derogatory way?

Listen to yourself!!

Ha! You left-wing types always start off with your noses in the air full of your own superiority. Give it five minutes and the whole thing unravels and you're in the gutter slinging any old mud you can get hold of.

It makes for good entertainment!

But, yes, I'm not a fan of the left. For good reason.

[Tom_Wescott]

I suppose things in England might be different. As an American, I'm frankly tired of both the Democrat and Republican parties. They can no longer be taken seriously. I would absolutely love to see an independent voted into office and frankly, at this point, I couldn't care less if they're left or right as long as they're not representing big corporations. Our government has been a mess since Kennedy died. From 1963 to 1973 it was one snafu after another and caused our country to lose all faith in government. I was born in 1973, so I grew up in that world and remain nostalgic for a time I didn't personally experience.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fleetwood Mac]

I suppose things in England might be different. As an American, I'm frankly tired of both the Democrat and Republican parties. They can no longer be taken seriously. I would absolutely love to see an independent voted into office and frankly, at this point, I couldn't care less if they're left or right as long as they're not representing big corporations. Our government has been a mess since Kennedy died. From 1963 to 1973 it was one snafu after another and caused our country to lose all faith in government. I was born in 1973, so I grew up in that world and remain nostalgic for a time I didn't personally experience.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Similar. I wouldn't go as far as to say dominated by big business, but the two main parties pander to interest groups; which pretty much boils down to the same thing as your sentiment.

I would rather hack indiscriminately at my testicles with a scythe than witness a left-wing party in government, because in my opinion they are not good for this country - so we differ there.

In truth, though, neither party represents my interests. The Conservative Party are too big on defence and too socially conservative for my liking, and everything is wrong with the Labour Party.

The political landscape here is dull because nothing has changed since the year dot: pretty much the same parties with the same message. You know what you'll get from the Conservative Party for the next millennium: "Tough on Crime; Tough on Welfare; Tough on everything except slogans". And the Labour Party: "Poverty is Our Enemy". A few elections ago the conservatives had posters put on bill boards which consisted of Tony Blair with red eyes. That's it. That was the extent of their political nous and policies - a reference to Tony Blair being the devil!

The world has changed so I feel we need something new, but people in this country move forward into the future with their luggage in tow so we're a world away from that.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Fleet. It probably reflects poorly on me, but I imagine I'm more familiar with British politics circa 1888 than I am 2013. Left-wing there might be different from here. Here in the states, you have Republican and Democrat. Neither of them represent my interests fully. I agree and disagree with both. Progressively, they're becoming the same party. I was offended in 2008 when the Republicans decided the best man for the job was John McCain. I mean, really? And the Democrats offered up Obama simply because he was the total antithesis of George Bush. It was all I could do to keep from puking. I really didn't think Obama had much of a chance because he had so little political experience. Zero accomplishments. And of course he's black. However, I saw him on TV talking about how he's a bad bowler and when he bowls it's like the 'special olympics'. Of course, the nation feigned offense, because that's what we're supposed to do these days, right? But I wasn't at all offended and in fact the 'realness' of it made me warm to him. So when he won I was like 'Okay, let's see what happens'. And plus one of my buggaboos is our seriouly crappy health system and unlike the Republicans, Obama seemed concerned about it. Well, talk about a lackluster presidency. Obama-nation has been an abomination. So, while I'd prefer a conservative independent as president...someone who'd represent my interests as a heterosexual white male in a world that seems to have forgotten what an important resource we are...the reality is that at this point I'd settle for a liberal president as long as he was an independent and was ready to make serious changes INSIDE the big machine.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Fleet. It probably reflects poorly on me, but I imagine I'm more familiar with British politics circa 1888 than I am 2013. Left-wing there might be different from here. Here in the states, you have Republican and Democrat. Neither of them represent my interests fully. I agree and disagree with both. Progressively, they're becoming the same party. I was offended in 2008 when the Republicans decided the best man for the job was John McCain. I mean, really? And the Democrats offered up Obama simply because he was the total antithesis of George Bush. It was all I could do to keep from puking. I really didn't think Obama had much of a chance because he had so little political experience. Zero accomplishments. And of course he's black. However, I saw him on TV talking about how he's a bad bowler and when he bowls it's like the 'special olympics'. Of course, the nation feigned offense, because that's what we're supposed to do these days, right? But I wasn't at all offended and in fact the 'realness' of it made me warm to him. So when he won I was like 'Okay, let's see what happens'. And plus one of my buggaboos is our seriouly crappy health system and unlike the Republicans, Obama seemed concerned about it. Well, talk about a lackluster presidency. Obama-nation has been an abomination. So, while I'd prefer a conservative independent as president...someone who'd represent my interests as a heterosexual white male in a world that seems to have forgotten what an important resource we are...the reality is that at this point I'd settle for a liberal president as long as he was an independent and was ready to make serious changes INSIDE the big machine.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

Similarly, I don't know much about US politics. We're probably similar nations at least in one respect: we don't tend to know much about the outside world, which isn't poverty of education although many would like to think it is.

My view of the US from the Americans I've spoken with is that they tend to be politically astute, and usually sceptical of what the government can achieve which in my opinion is a wise option.

In terms of the left over here, it's pretty much the same thing: the government has the answers and you're not to blame for your life (although you probably have more social anarchists over there - the spectrum of our left and right is quite narrow which comes with being a moderate country and a densely populated nation). Many of the left over here are from suburban life; people who go to outer-Mongolia and come back with a band on their arms proclaiming they're with the poor and they return to their suburban life completely ignorant of the realities of poverty and its causes.

I can put my hand on my heart and say I was born and bred in County Durham, which is traditionally coal mining territory. The pits were closed down during the mid-80s and so I was growing up in that era of 50% unemployment in County Durham. I've lived in and among poverty. Seen its affects. The frustrations and alcoholism among some people. But, the way out of it is not to blame everyone else; nor is it to believe the left who would have you believe that only the government can save you; it is to get your nut down and scrap your way out of it. This is the main reason I can't for a second accept a left-wing government because they will spread poverty of ambition.

In terms of the health system. Were I an American knowing what I know of our health system and knowing very healthy American principles of being wary of what the government can achieve, I would find the whole healthcare system issue a really tough call. I would say that our healthcare system is a success on the whole. Yes, you will pay for people who don't take care of themselves at all - that is an inevitable downside. But, I've watched my Grandmother in hospital for three weeks before dying and they took care of her like she was their own Grandmother - and it would be very difficult to argue that the NHS is a bad idea when you've personally experienced the benefits. On the other side of the coin, it is absolutely right to think that when you give an inch to the government and the people who support government planning, they'll want more. So, as I say, a tough call.

In terms of white heterosexual males, that is a sentiment that many of us on this island can understand. Not so much the male, or heterosexual, or even the white; but being English was something not to shout about for a long time. The Irish are loveable rogues when they shout about Ireland; the Scottish are bagpipe playing Celts when they shout about Scotland (even though that is an image of themselves created by an upper-class Englishman that they took on as their identity); but to shout about England was almost seen as racist. Now, shooting 148 people in Amritsar for the crime of protesting in public is not nice by anyone's standards, but this country has achieved so much and left such a legacy on the world that we should be shouting from the rooftops about it. Now, though, the left-wing message has worn thin and people are immensely proud of this country again.