School Bus Driver Fired for Praying on Bus

[c.d.]

I have the feeling that this argument will soon turn ugly so out of my respect for you and your contributions to the boards, I will bow out.

c.d.

[Errata]

That's not what I said. i said in public schools there's only been open Christian prayer. As for freedom of religion, that apparently went out the window when people became brainwashed to believe that prayer is bad and think it's awesome when a man loses his job over it. The other big religion over here, which is the Jewish faith, would largely agree with me on that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Judaism actually isn't the "other big religion". We are number 3. Islam outnumbers us, and Buddhism probably does too, but they respond differently to religious surveys so it's hard to tell. Our population has dropped dramatically in the last 10 years.

And it isn't true that people aren't hurt by Christian prayer. I can't tell you how many times I have been stared at, mocked, threatened, bullied, and even been beaten because I would not participate in the praise of someone I think is just some dude. Evidently a lot of Christians have made themselves feel better by telling themselves that we think Jesus is a prophet. We don't. Never did. Muslims do. Jesus is just some dude. And even beyond that, Jews don't have the same relationship with their god as Christians do. We don't pray the way you pray, we don't ask for the things you ask for, we don't want personal attention the way you do. We don't even have the same god. Logically we should, but we don't. Our god is not all loving, all knowing, and omnipresent. Our god doesn't interfere. Ever. And asking him to do so is a sign that you really don't get it. We aren't supposed to ask for help. We're supposed to do it ourselves. God is not our father. Unless by "our father" you mean an insanely strict, dictatorial, occasionally abusive absentee father. He's our boss. He's not our family, he's not our buddy, he's not our confidante. We have a deal. We don't have a relationship. We praise him. We don't pray to him.

Your assertion that largely Jews would be in favor of more prayer is based on your ideas of what prayer is. Jews don't want more prayer. We want more study. We want more people to do what they are supposed to do. We don't want little groups on a schoolbus, or at a football game, and since the 40s we absolutely do not want it classrooms since that turned out spectacularly badly for us. And still does. We have times we are supposed to pray. They don't interfere with school or work. So while we may agree on the general idea that there is some sort of moral collapse happening, we don't want what you want.

Actually what we'd really love is for you prayer guys to get it through your thick skulls that whether you intend to or not, you are HURTING people. Muslims never waited for me outside a basketball game to pin me against a wall and draw a swastika on my forehead for not saying the lord's prayer before the game. Your problem isn't a lack of prayer. You lack control over your own people. So until prayer people are willing to punish those who punish us for not praying your way, until they are willing to explain that it's the destination that matters, not the mode of transportation, until you stop teaching people that Jews killed Jesus, until you manage to finally teach your children that it's okay for people to not believe what you believe, we have a problem. A big one. Especially here in the south. Because we are getting physically hurt by those who insist on prayer. Because they aren't praying for OUR well being. They are praying for our destruction or conversion.

At least Jews make it easy. We don't want you. We don't want anyone. You do whatever it is that you do, and if you find favor in god's eyes, great. But we don't need you, we don't want you, and we aren't going to threaten or bully you in the hope that you see things our way. You know my synagogue gets swatiskas spray painted on it several times a year? Always for our high holidays. That I understand. We get it at Hanukkah too, which I understand less but I guess it's a public perception thing. But we also get vandalized Christmas Eve, Christmas Day Eve, and Easter eve. Which begs the question, what the hell are you telling people on your High Holidays that their natural reaction is to spray swastikas on our building? If someone wants to pray for me, I'll take it no matter the form. But until you people can control yourselves, lets keep the prayer out of the public eye. You don't see the problem because you aren't the one taking a scrap board to your back when you get to your car after Yom Kippur services. Thanks but no thanks.

[Robert]

"Our god doesn't interfere. Ever."

Hi Errata

I'm staying out of this thread, except that I just don't get this. What about the various destructions visited on the Jews for not helping the widows and orphans, or the issuing of the ten commandments, or the leading to the promised land? Isn't this interference?

[Tom_Wescott]

Errata,

Those who paint swastikas or beat you up because you're Jewish are not Christians nor people who pray. That should be obvious. So no, I can't agree. And I'd be surprised if Buddhists outnumbered Jews in the U.S., but I won't call you wrong. Despite your intolerance for Christianity, I'm happy to say I don't believe most Jews are that way and Christians and Jews exist harmoniously. 99.9% of Christians would not stand for the behavior you describe and I think you know that. However, it's the dominant religion in the U.S. so visible signs of it should be expected just as visible signs of Judiasm would be expected in Israel, which in spite of what you think the U.S. supports. Not Obama, mind you, but the U.S. And Jews wrote the Old Testament in case you've forgotten.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Errata]

"Our god doesn't interfere. Ever."

Hi Errata

I'm staying out of this thread, except that I just don't get this. What about the various destructions visited on the Jews for not helping the widows and orphans, or the issuing of the ten commandments, or the leading to the promised land? Isn't this interference?

I mean he doesn't stop a house from burning down, he doesn't get people a raise at work, he doesn't cure cancer, he doesn't even save homeless people during a freeze. That's our job. And to pray for god to do it is to say that you don't think it's your job, which it is. That's all.

Yes. He was very interfering in the old Testament. But really after he led us to the promised land his end of the deal was done. All he had to do after that was led us all into the kingdom of Heaven whatever that looks like when the end times are here, and not destroy the earth. So I imagine it doesn't take a lot of work to NOT kill us all again, and as for the afterlife bit... we got some time. So as far as the deal goes, he's done for now. We aren't.

[Errata]

Errata,

Those who paint swastikas or beat you up because you're Jewish are not Christians nor people who pray. That should be obvious. So no, I can't agree. And I'd be surprised if Buddhists outnumbered Jews in the U.S., but I won't call you wrong. Despite your intolerance for Christianity, I'm happy to say I don't believe most Jews are that way and Christians and Jews exist harmoniously. 99.9% of Christians would not stand for the behavior you describe and I think you know that. However, it's the dominant religion in the U.S. so visible signs of it should be expected just as visible signs of Judiasm would be expected in Israel, which in spite of what you think the U.S. supports. Not Obama, mind you, but the U.S. And Jews wrote the Old Testament in case you've forgotten.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

The people who paint swastikas on the synagogue absolutely are religious Christians, and absolutely pray. You may not like what they have twisted your beliefs into, but that doesn't mean they aren't representing your brand out there. You may think they are hideous people for doing what they do, I would think you would, but that doesn't mean they aren't Christians. If they weren't so very Christian in fact, the existence of Jews wouldn't bother them in the slightest. Just like the existence of Christians doesn't bother me. They are fanatics. And they consider themselves far more Christian and far more saved that they consider you.

Why is it every time I criticize Christianity I get accused of being intolerant? Is it so hard to believe that a religion that encompasses 70% of the US is also the largest home of bigots in the nation? Really where is the harm in policing your own? When the Southern Baptist Convention handed down the judgement that nobody has been admitted to heaven, and none will be until the Jews are converted to Christ, you know who stood up for us? Muslims. Do you have any idea how uncomfortable it is for someone to tell you that their sainted mother is trapped in a stinking hole until you accept Christ as your savior? It took six months of Jews and Muslims and one representative of the Catholic Church to get them to retract that statement. And in the meantime our Synagogue looked like a bathroom stall in Nazi headquarters. And in a way I think it's charming that you honestly think these people don't represent your faith. But you need to know what people are doing in the name of your god. You can't just brush it off with "well they aren't mine." Because I promise you, we don't know that they aren't yours. So whether you accept them or not, they are giving you a bad name. And it's not our job to learn to differentiate between a thousand different kinds of Christian, nor is it our job to learn your beliefs so thoroughly that we will be able to tell who is a "real" Christian and who isn't. It's your job to stand up and tell other Christians "Hey. Stop it. You're being a dick.". Because I gotta say, the SBC thing could have been resolved a lot quicker if other Christians jumped in. And you can probably understand why it worries me that they didn't.

I'm saying it's hard enough out there for non Christians. Isn't part of Christian charity the duty to not make someone's life worse than it is? I love that you are a man of faith and a man of principle. And I think it's great that you want to pray. And I encourage you to do so. But don't single out that one Jewish kid in class and make him more of a target than he already is. I mean kids are already psychopaths without having to throw religious stuff in it as well. I already feel alienated, especially with the new three months of Christmas rule in stores, and none of it is for me. I am in fact all for you praying, even praying in groups. But not where someone is going to feel bad about it. Not when some kid then has to be afraid of being targeted. That's not fair.

Why would I forget that Jews wrote the Old Testament? Or the Torah as we like to call it.

[Tom_Wescott]

It's well-known that verifiable lunatics like that group you're talking about, who I believe are the same ones who picket funerals for soldiers, in absolutely no way represent Christianity. In fact, I don't go to church because I'm not sure a single one of them properly represents the word of Christ or what He stood for. There's probably some out there that do, but they're not in my neighborhood. So, I'm not a big fan of organized religion as a whole. The set up of the Catholic Church baffles the mind. But that has nothing to do with Christ. Jesus never said go kill as many non-Christians as you can and you'll be rewarded with lots of brides in the afterlife. That's pure lunacy and is beyond defense.
As for these people who spray paint graffiti, have you interviewed them as to their religious practices? You seem awfully certain that they're doing what they're doing in the name of Christ and not in the name of mischief, which is really what it sounds like. I've seen an awful lot of offensive graffiti in my time and don't recall any of it having been done by good church-going Christians.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. I have to assume you're a non-practicing Jew? You capitalize 'Christian', as well you should, but do not capitalize the name of 'God'.

[Robert]

Hi Errata

Well, it doesn't sound like much of a deal to me. What about volcanoes that erupt, burying a town? Or tsunamis? Or plagues? Who made those? Homelessness maybe he can get off the hook for - but what about cancer? I know you said he isn't all loving and all knowing. But how does that make him worthy of praise? I don't get it.

PS I'm an agnostic.

[Errata]

It's well-known that verifiable lunatics like that group you're talking about, who I believe are the same ones who picket funerals for soldiers, in absolutely no way represent Christianity. In fact, I don't go to church because I'm not sure a single one of them properly represents the word of Christ or what He stood for. There's probably some out there that do, but they're not in my neighborhood. So, I'm not a big fan of organized religion as a whole. The set up of the Catholic Church baffles the mind. But that has nothing to do with Christ. Jesus never said go kill as many non-Christians as you can and you'll be rewarded with lots of brides in the afterlife. That's pure lunacy and is beyond defense.
As for these people who spray paint graffiti, have you interviewed them as to their religious practices? You seem awfully certain that they're doing what they're doing in the name of Christ and not in the name of mischief, which is really what it sounds like. I've seen an awful lot of offensive graffiti in my time and don't recall any of it having been done by good church-going Christians.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. I have to assume you're a non-practicing Jew? You capitalize 'Christian', as well you should, but do not capitalize the name of 'God'.

Okay, evidently this is seriously long winded. Just so you know.

Yeah I'm non practicing, but mostly I don't capitalize god because I recognize the existence of other other god forms, and it feels like if I were to capitalize it, I would be referring to mine and assuming that yours was the same as mine, which he really isn't. If I was practicing I would write G-d, because we aren't supposed to write it out anywhere where it might be destroyed, so that definitely means paper, but I'm not sure a consensus has come down about the internet.

You think the people spray painting the synagogue are some weird cult like Westboro Baptist Church. They aren't. They are Southern Baptist. They are Church of Christ. We even had a couple of Methodist kids. And I know this because I know them. They are the kids of my dad's coworkers. I played them in basketball. I taught their sex ed class. It's not like these guys aren't getting caught. I've even caught some. The people who tried to kill me when a friend saved my life? They were in his classes. I occasionally played pool with them at the pool hall. I dated one of their younger brothers. I knew them. I knew they were jerks, but I didn't think they were psychotic. But they caught us walking back to the dorms, they were drunk, and they decided that they were going to torture me until I accepted Christ as my personal savior. And my friend told me to run, and started shouting at them about how he was gay, and a pagan, and they turned on him and they stabbed him dozens of times. He saved my life. And I know that is not Christian behavior. I know that Jesus would crack skulls if he saw that. But there are Christian religions, and there is Christian culture. And while no Christian religion sanctions what happened to Brandon and me, the culture does.

The people here are not told that that they need to go Jew hunting. But they are taught that Jewish jokes are funny. That we are not good enough to date. That we aren't especially welcome at parties. They are taught that Jews killed Christ. And they are taught that giving Jews a hard time will be reprimanded in public, and rewarded in private. And I thought it was a Southern thing. And I gotta admit that I don't see it a lot up North. Up north I usually get rants about Jewish Hollywood supremacy, which I don't understand but doesn't sound too terrible. But I saw it in France and in England. I saw it in Germany, but accompanied by profuse apologies while they craned their necks to see if anyone heard. This is a thing. And it's not just Jews. It's Muslims too. And there seems to be a special rancor reserved for atheists.

And it's not that Jews don't occasionally get some seriously vengeful groups. But we police them. We occasionally have some problems with Hassids in New York, or Lubovitchers in New York or Miami. We fix it. Generally our rule is that you don't have to come in contact with other groups if you don't want to. But you do have to be respectful. You do not get to hurt people. You do not get to insult people, you do not get to taunt people, you do not get to make people feel like ****. If you can't say something nice, you get up and leave. And maybe it's different for us because we don't proselytize. We are perfectly content to let people send themselves to hell or whatever. Not our problem. And yes. it worries me that so many branches of Christianity are dependent on converting people in order to be saved. Because I will never convert, so how can I be anything other than the reason a perfectly nice guy is going to hell? I mean, I can't tell you how many times I have faked interest because the guy trying to convert me seemed nice, he seemed, earnest, and I didn't want to hurt him. I don't want him going to hell over me. And I don't think god works that way, but he does and it's his view that matters to him. For all I know it DOES work that way for him, which means he's screwed. And I don't know if I should tell him to move on, or make him feel like he made a convert. I don't know what's better for his soul.

I had a great friend who became far more observant as we grew up. And it got to the point that my Judaism really bothered him. He was constantly worried, and it was affecting our friendship. We couldn't move forward. He knew I wasn't going to change, but he couldn't watch me hurt myself (as he saw it). So we parted with mutual respect. I miss him. But I don't want him consumed by this, and I don't want him to worry over me. He doesn't want to badger me, and he wants to respect my beliefs, but he sees it as like watching a friend cut themselves. He doesn't know how to not step in. And he gave me a truly great gift. He knew he couldn't be the friend I needed, and he backed off. And in the end, he loved me enough to let me go to hell, knowing that he did his best and anything more would be abusive. I wish more people were like him.

And I feel bad that I couldn't make him feel better about the state of my soul. I don't want him to worry about me. But I would be abusing him if I constantly harped on why I'm fine and he needs to worry about himself. Especially since we will never agree. And I have good Christian friends, and mostly we don't agree on religion. And we accept that and move on. It's not a thing. But with Michael it was. And I know that he will never turn on Jews, firstly because he is an exceptionally kind man, and secondly because he knew me. He knew I wasn't a threat to anyone but myself. And believe it or not, I accept his belief. I wish it were otherwise, but I get it. But he didn't abandon me because I was Jewish. He left because he didn't want to hurt me. How can I be anything but grateful? That's what I want from Christians. If you cannot accept what I am, and I get that, then respect me enough to not hurt me.

The contrast between Michael and the frat boys is night and day. Michael is a true Christian, in that he embraces the love and respect Jesus taught. The Frat boys were also Christians. They may never have thought much about their faith, but they believed it because they believed it when they were four years old. They were probably influenced more by the culture than the man who gave his name to their faith. But that doesn't make them less Christian. It makes them less Christ-like. And since Christianity is all about salvation, the worst I know to say about those guys is that they were imperfect Christians. But I'm surrounded by imperfect Christians, so I cannot just dismiss them as some weird outlier.

[Errata]

Hi Errata

Well, it doesn't sound like much of a deal to me. What about volcanoes that erupt, burying a town? Or tsunamis? Or plagues? Who made those? Homelessness maybe he can get off the hook for - but what about cancer? I know you said he isn't all loving and all knowing. But how does that make him worthy of praise? I don't get it.

PS I'm an agnostic.

Good question. And the answer is that we don't praise him all around. We thank him for Israel. We thank him for our liberation from the Egyptians. We thank him for promising not to kill us all again.

The central prayer in Judaism is this:
Hear oh Israel, the Lord is our god, The Lord is one

Not really dripping with praise is it? It's a reminder. This is our god, he is the only god. Other prayers thank him for harvest, for light, for the Sabbath.

Our deal was this. We became his people, and he would lead us to the promised land. We don't have to love him, we don't have to praise him, we don't ask him for stuff. We obey the 600 or so laws that he gave us. He led us to the promised land. We obey the law. Our relationship with god is more like citizenship than worship. We obey the rules, we get to stay. I mean, I don't ask my mayor to get me a raise, I don't ask god for that either.

[Robert]

OK but what about the centuries when you weren't in the holy land? Didn't he renege on his part of the bargain?

[Errata]

OK but what about the centuries when you weren't in the holy land? Didn't he renege on his part of the bargain?

Well, we are probably getting a little more literal than the Torah was intended to be, but basically we screwed that one up. I mean, we got there. 40 years of wandering in the desert, but we got there at the end of Exodus. And then we left. And then we came back and then we left again. And then we came back. I don't think the deal included god leading us to the promised land ad infinitum. I mean, we aren't sheep, and we shouldn't need to be constantly driven back into the pen. We did have a certain responsibility to stay there. Which we didn't do.

Of course my personal view is that god is a jerk, so I'm just giving you the common belief, not my own. If you want an interesting take on it, theres a book called The Psychic and the Rabbi, and it's basically two people exchanging views on their religion. Two guys who can only be described as total crackpots by the common man, but they make some interesting points.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Errata,

I've always thought you were an odd one, and you are, but I enjoyed post #24. But in our Old Testament there are prophecies about the coming of the Messiah...A rather staunch criteria that only Jesus Christ meets. Were these prophecies struck from your Torah at some point?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Robert]

Errata you would make a good defence lawyer. I might need you when I get up there, if I can lure you away from defending the Old Boy.

[Errata]

Hi Errata,

I've always thought you were an odd one, and you are, but I enjoyed post #24. But in our Old Testament there are prophecies about the coming of the Messiah...A rather staunch criteria that only Jesus Christ meets. Were these prophecies struck from your Torah at some point?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

You are not the first person to make that observation

The way we see it, Jesus didn't meet all the criteria. Most of it, but not all of it. But then he died, which is not supposed to be the fate of the Messiah. And he didn't do what the Messiah was supposed to do. So close, but no cigar so to speak.

And you have to take into account the time. Judea was occupied, the Romans were alternating between highly aggressive and psychotic, and we were forming a rebellion. Everyone thought it was the end times, and there were like 20 other Messiahs running around each with their own cult (numerically. not criminally). John the Baptist was thought to be a potential messiah. Possibly even by Jesus. So Jesus was not standing out as unique at the time. Plus he preached peace and cooperation with the Romans that many found offensive. They didn't want to "render unto Caesar what was Caesars". They didn't think they owed Caesar a damn thing except a punch in the nose, so why on earth would they cooperate with his rule? Jesus may very well have been seen as a collaborator. Certainly others who said similar things were see that way. So even before his death many ruled him out as a messiah because a messiah is supposed to bring profound change, and Jesus appeared to be preaching appeasement.

I think being a messiah is a very personal thing. And I think everyone is a messiah to someone. Jesus did and still does bring a profound change in people's lives, so I can say that he is the Messiah for those people. But he isn't ours. He isn't mine. I think Shakespeare has had a more profound effect of my life and my spirituality than any religious figure. So maybe like the rest of the Jews I'm still waiting, and maybe I found my messiah in a playwright dead for 500 years. But everyone is still waiting for the one who actually gets the job done, and leads us into the kingdom of heaven. Jesus didn't do that, and being dead at the time was a perfectly valid excuse. But we're still waiting. And this we have in common.