Just where do we go from here?

[Chris Scott]

Just on a point of information...
To Brummie and others - can we PLEASE stop conflating anti Muslim sentiments and actions with racism. You may disapprove of both but to treat the two as identical is illogical and, indeed, nonsensical.
Islam is a creed, a religion, and not a race. Indeed, one of the boasts of Islam is that among the many converts it attracts are members of almost every (if not every) ethnic group. There are Chinese Muslims, black African Muslims, Causcasian Muslims, Arab Muslims, Slavic Muslims etc etc etc.
Thus to denigrate any anti Muslim article or comment with the knee jerk mantra as "racist" is meaningless. I suspect the label is wrongly used because the term "racist" is among the most condemnatory of convenient labels used to silence discussion - the others include fascist and Islamophobe.
You may, as I say, strongly disapprove of both racism and anti Islamic sentiments, but to misuse a label in a meaningless way does your case no justice.
So for one last time - Muslims are followers of a creed, a religion and do not, and cannot constitute an ethnic group. Therefore anti Islamic sentiments are not, and cannot be described as racism.

[Smoking Joe]

Just on a point of information...

the term "racist" is among the most condemnatory of convenient labels used to silence discussion - the others include fascist and Islamophobe.
.

Thank you.When I brought up that very point about using such phrases to stifle discussion and opinion I was immediately harangued, by a poster and for a considerable time too.

"How are people being stifled?"
"You are always whining about being stifled"
"In what way are you being stifled?"
"What is the meaning of being stifled?"
"There is no evidence in this country that anyone tries to stifle opinion"
And much much more.
Im glad that even if our opinions might differ in greater or smaller degree,at least there is another person here who recognises one of the reasons why those terms are so regularly used. ......and will continue to be used.
Regards

[brummie]

My apologies to anyone here who may have been offended and racism was indeed the wrong term to use.It was not my intention to give offence to any individual here.

There has in the country generally been an increase in anti islamic feeling towards all muslims whether extremist,radicalised or not and any kind of hatred and bigotry should not in anyway be tolerated. The very essence of the kind of way of life,the cornerstone of certainly British culture and western culture generally has been tolerance and freedom of worship (or non worship in my case) and the biggest threat to that way of life and those values is a hysterical backlash against a certain group based on the actions of a few extremists.I'm not entirely sure what aspects of my British heritage and culture have been swept away by an increase in diversity.

As an aside I did see somewhere an interesting blog post (unfortunately can't remember where) which although accepting that the 99% of muslims in UK may have no involvement in extremist acts, then went on to make the point that in 30's Germany there were probably few 'true' Nazis to begin with but a population allowed itself to be swept along by a movement which gave it a resiored sense of pride and belonging and was prepared to overlook the extremist parts of the doctrine or look the other way.

[Errata]

In 2013, some Imams, following the example of their prophet, openly argue that rape isn"t a crime if committed by Muslims on non-Muslims women.
And that religion still legalizes polygamy - for men, of course.

But hey, no worries. As Ally has explained, all religions are the same, equally violent and equally non-egalitarian.

Having never heard a single priest allowing rape on non-Christian women, I'm sure I've missed something.

This is one of those things where politics meets religion and the result is an unholy brew. The Imams in question were in Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Several of them were approached by poor Muslim women who were victims of what can best be described as human trafficking. They answered job ads in these two countries, at which point they were confined and provided to prominent men in both countries for "parties" which were really gang rapes. Many of those prominent men were members of the Saudi royal family. Some of the women who approached these Imams were executed for adultery, because their rapists were married. Although the Imams did have stern conversations telling these men not to target Muslim women. But the majority of the women caught in the scam were South American and Eastern European. Not Muslim. Given the choice between saving these girls or indulging the whims of highly inbred psychopathic royals, these Imams chose to indulge the royals. And their brother Imams went apeshit over those declarations. They were not at all okay with this pronouncement. And were highly vocal on the subject, to the point that several members of the Saudi Royal family involved in this have disappeared from view.As have a few of those Imams.

Now before anyone seizes on this like a dog on a bone, this kind of human trafficking and "entertainment" happens everywhere. It happens here. A human trafficking ring selling children to wealthy pedophiles was busted not 100 miles from where I sit three years ago.Sick ****s are everywhere.

[Ally]

In 2013, some Imams, following the example of their prophet, openly argue that rape isn"t a crime if committed by Muslims on non-Muslims women.
And that religion still legalizes polygamy - for men, of course.

But hey, no worries. As Ally has explained, all religions are the same, equally violent and equally non-egalitarian.

Having never heard a single priest allowing rape on non-Christian women, I'm sure I've missed something.

No but priests allow Catholics to rape their own wives. And beat them. And then tell the wives to "pray to god to make you a better wife so your husband doesn't beat you". Oh and allow their priests to sexually molest little children and DO NOTHING ABOUT it for decades.

Yes, the Christian Church is a holy place of spiritual refuge. So different from the muslim imams.

[DVV]

To DVV
A Muslim who supposedly makes Jihad by for example suicide bombing. Is not following the Koran. They are twisting the Koran for there own ends. Having known some Muslims over the years they informed me that both suicide and weapons of mass destruction were going against the Koran.
Cheers John

Hi John

I was talking of jihad and violence generally.
Killing a man by sword isn't better than by bomb.
There was no bomb in the 7th century, so I suppose it's open to (islamic) interpretation.

Cheers

[DVV]

No but priests allow Catholics to rape their own wives. And beat them. And then tell the wives to "pray to god to make you a better wife so your husband doesn't beat you". Oh and allow their priests to sexually molest little children and DO NOTHING ABOUT it for decades.

Yes, the Christian Church is a holy place of spiritual refuge. So different from the muslim imams.

Everybody can see you resort to gross caricature.
There must be a reason - about which I don't care much.

You're unable to provide any christian canonical text that allows to sexually molest children.

I can provide islamic canonical texts that allow to beat women, marry more than once even if very young, and kill infidels.

[DVV]

This is one of those things where politics meets religion and the result is an unholy brew. The Imams in question were in Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Several of them were approached by poor Muslim women who were victims of what can best be described as human trafficking. They answered job ads in these two countries, at which point they were confined and provided to prominent men in both countries for "parties" which were really gang rapes. Many of those prominent men were members of the Saudi royal family. Some of the women who approached these Imams were executed for adultery, because their rapists were married. Although the Imams did have stern conversations telling these men not to target Muslim women. But the majority of the women caught in the scam were South American and Eastern European. Not Muslim. Given the choice between saving these girls or indulging the whims of highly inbred psychopathic royals, these Imams chose to indulge the royals. And their brother Imams went apeshit over those declarations. They were not at all okay with this pronouncement. And were highly vocal on the subject, to the point that several members of the Saudi Royal family involved in this have disappeared from view.As have a few of those Imams.

Now before anyone seizes on this like a dog on a bone, this kind of human trafficking and "entertainment" happens everywhere. It happens here. A human trafficking ring selling children to wealthy pedophiles was busted not 100 miles from where I sit three years ago.Sick ****s are everywhere.

No. Imams in Europe. What are you talking about ?
I've already said I do not care about what they preach in Saudi. None of my business.

[Ally]

And I have provided you with texts that have Jesus saying bring infidels to me and kill them before me. Text provided. Just like Islam.

I could also provide you with text that Jesus explicitly states it's okay to beat your slaves, but hey, you have your mind made up and your religion is all that is holy and good.

Even though Jesus thinks it's just fine for you to bring the non-believer before him and kill him and also to beat your slaves.

Nah, your religion is perfect and sane. Here's the problem, when it's your religion doing gross and horrific things, it's just individuals and not a function of the religion. When it's anyone else's, it's their religion. You're hypocritical in your treatment of religion. It doesn't matter what the Bible says, the fact is the Church had an institution wide policy of helping priests escape punishment for molesting children for decades. Your religion is just as appalling in practice as Islam.

[The Good Michael]

Everybody can see you resort to gross caricature.
There must be a reason - about which I don't care much.

You're unable to provide any christian canonical text that allows to sexually molest children.

I can provide canonical texts islamic texts that allow to beat women, marry more than once even if very young, and kill infidels.

Right David. This stuff is unsupported by the gospels, but the Catholic church (and others) have been guilty of a ton of this stuff and have always tried to cover it up, preferring to take care of the problems within the clerical communities. It goes on today, of course. The difference is, it isn't sanctioned by doctrine whereas Islamic atrocities are...only they aren't atrocities in Islam. Men marry 6, 7, and 8 year-olds all the time, and in the Sharia nations, women apparently are so desirable that men can't control themselves, so rape is the woman/girl's fault. All these atrocities may be traced back to the original source, Mohammed. In Christianity, we have a messiah who got so angry that he drove out the moneychangers and sellers of sacrificial doves. This is as bad as New Testament doctrine gets. Sure the Bible itself has been used to institute a lot of evil movements, but if we are speaking of today, and the processes of the 21st century, Islamists still support the stuff of their doctrine, and those who don't fear to condemn those who do.

Mike

[Ally]

I do also love Leviticus where if a man rapes a female slave, SHE GETS BEATEN, but she won't be put to death because she wasn't free.

I mean, you just got to love that sort of logic.

[DVV]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWWrpv-pbuc

[DVV]

I do also love Leviticus where if a man rapes a female slave, SHE GETS BEATEN, but she won't be put to death because she wasn't free.

I mean, you just got to love that sort of logic.

Sigh...

And according to your logic, christianism encourages lapidation because it's in the old testament.

How subtle and knowledgeable.

[Ally]

And Jesus spoke saying:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.


I do find it interesting how Christians go "oh, that's in the Old Testament, it doesn't count" when the words of their own god says differently.

[DVV]

Queen of Theology

Wait, Ally, be patient...

I have until Friday to reply.

But as a Christian, on Saturday, I'm not allowed to switch my computer on.