Just where do we go from here?

[Ally]

Typical of the religious. Isn't it nice see it proven it's not just muslims who are incoherent and irrational when it comes to their faith and what is the "real" expression of it?

[DVV]

Typical of the religious. Isn't it nice see it proven it's not just muslims who are incoherent and irrational when it comes to their faith and what is the "real" expression of it?

I'm in no way trying to prove that Muslims are incoherent and irrational.

I'm saying what everybody knows, except the happy few.

[Ally]

And I am in no way trying to prove Christians are equally irrational. It's obvious to everyone, except a select few.

[DVV]

Equality is so simple, and logically fashionable.

[Ally]

And empty rhetoric is always the resort of those who have nothing of value to contribute.

[Smoking Joe]

Is it always like this here?

While I would agree that there is lunacy and irrationality on both sides.Its the degrees of lunacy involved.
If a Muslim for instance published a cartoon of the Archbishop of Canterbury kissing a monkey ,I doubt whether we would have the spectacle of 200,000 christians worldwide burning down embassies and issuing intifadas on the cartoonist.
Most C hristians would,or might either laugh at the cartoon or be indifferent as regards it.
There really is no comparison between the fanaticism of islam and the rag tag isolated outposts which house the Westboro Boys and such like. To compare the two on an equal level are the ruminations of a madman.

[Errata]

Oh oh, the crusades again.

And on a thread in which kind souls try to prove islam isn't violent, you'll have a hard time to prove christianism is.

We're not talking of history, in case you failed to notice.

We're talking about the message, the core of the religion.

The numerous crimes of Muhammad are cited in example in the Sira. And the Koran encourages murder in many verses.

I know, it's a modern way of thinking (or rather : of not taking the pain to think) : everything is the same. All religions are equally bad and stupid.

The reality is a bit more complex.

The message of Christianity isn't one of peace. And it hasn't been since Christ died. The message is one of salvation and conversion. Ally is an atheist (I don't think I'm outing you here, but feel free to tell me to go to hell for saying that). Ally has probably never been been approached by a Jew who needs her to join him in his Judaism. She has probably never been approached by someone who needs her to join him in Islam. She gets it in the face all the time from Christians who have no desire to make her life easier. They aren't going to give her money, they aren't going to extend a helping hand, hell if she was kid in a Malaysian village they wouldn't even build a well for clean drinking water until she converted to Christianity.

Numbers are all that matters. Jesus never said his followers didn't have to keep Kosher. They did. Paul said that to convert gentiles. A few years go the Southern Baptist Convention tried to have it's followers put pressure on Jews by saying that no soul can enter into the kingdom of Heaven until the Jews converted to Christ. Let me tell you what a fun summer that was. I have been beaten by those invoking Christ, I have been tortured by those invoking Christ, And I have people try to murder me in my own home while invoking Christ. Crosses are burned on lawns in the name of Christ. Women are beaten, subjugated, and sold in the name of Christ. Discrimination has been enshrined in law in the name of Christ. Complete with Bible verses backing it up. The core of your religion is the empowerment of wealthy white men and the subjugation of all others. Which is kind of a trip seeing as how none of the Apostles nor Jesus himself was a white man. And the books even say that is what the core of the religion is. Jesus was about love and peace. A pity nobody else was. And yes, I could go into an equally damning indictment of any other religion you care to name, including Judaism, but I know how much you hate hearing about my Judaism.

[John Wheat]

I think the problem is the way people twist religion for there own means. Where the impressionable are brainwashed into for instance suicide bombing.

[Errata]

Is it always like this here?

While I would agree that there is lunacy and irrationality on both sides.Its the degrees of lunacy involved.
If a Muslim for instance published a cartoon of the Archbishop of Canterbury kissing a monkey ,I doubt whether we would have the spectacle of 200,000 christians worldwide burning down embassies and issuing intifadas on the cartoonist.
Most C hristians would,or might either laugh at the cartoon or be indifferent as regards it.
There really is no comparison between the fanaticism of islam and the rag tag isolated outposts which house the Westboro Boys and such like. To compare the two on an equal level are the ruminations of a madman.

Yeah it's pretty much always like this. The archbishop of Canterbury is a bad example. Jesus would be the appropriate analogy, and have people been killed for being disrespectful to the image of Jesus? They absolutely have. Even in modern times. A couple of years ago a guy in New York City had acid thrown his face for displaying a cartoon of Jesus in a GI uniform raping a Vietnamese girl with the caption "For God and Country". Zero press on the subject, thought to be fair he was federally protected so the press was probably warned off. The only reason I know about it is because the guy lived downstairs from my sister and it was big news in her building.

You cannot compare a Christian Englishman to a Lebanese Muslim. If a Christian Englishman could not be Christian, he could still live a mostly fulfilled life as an Englishman. If a Lebanese Muslim could not be Muslim, he has nothing to give him any kind of pride or sense of belonging. Just an unending grind of poverty, war, and powerlessness. At least as a Muslim he has something to look forward to, a community, a fellowship. Religion plays a far greater role in the life of most Muslims than most Christians. Not as a choice, but as a necessity. There is no attractive secular alternative for a lot of Muslims. Because their secular life is appalling.

[Smoking Joe]

The message of Christianity isn't one of peace. And Islam. She gets it in the face all the time from Christians who have no desire to make her life easier. They aren't going to give her money, they aren't going to extend a helping hand, hell if she was kid in a Malaysian village they wouldn't even build a well for clean drinking water until she converted to Christianity.

know how much you hate hearing about my Judaism.

Christian Aid works with the worlds poorest countries, regardless of race or faith,or no faith in over 50 countries worldwide.
The Salvation Army .is another agency usually the first,or among the first at any natural disaster.helping all faiths, creeds etc.

There muslim aid groups who do the same.
One doesnt have to convert to christianity to be helped by these organisations.Your post suggests that if you aint a christian ,or promise to become one then christian groups wont help you. That isnt true.

[Beowulf]

Man in his 20s stabbed metres from where soldier Lee Rigby was murdered in Woolwich

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2331202/Pictured-Man-20s-stabbed-metres-soldier-Lee-Rigby-murdered-Woolwich.html

[Smoking Joe]

Yeah it's pretty much always like this. The archbishop of Canterbury is a bad example. Jesus would be the appropriate . A couple of years ago a guy in New York City had acid thrown his face for displaying a cartoon of Jesus in a GI uniform raping a Vietnamese girl with the caption "For God and Country". Zero press on the subject, thought to be fair he was federally protected so the press was probably warned off. The only reason I know about it is because the guy lived downstairs from my sister and it was big news in her building.
alternative for a lot of Muslims. Because their secular life is appalling.

With respect Erratta one guy throwing acid in anothers face in one city, for whatever reason ,doesnt compare .A guy like that might just as easily thrown acid in someones face because he didnt like people with big ears or something. One guy acting on his own,obviously deranged versus hundreds of thousands of organised people, maybe equally deranged,burning ,looting and all the rest.
Intifidas on authors, film directors, for writing books or making a film which offends the mullahs . There is craziness, ....and then there is craziness. And in my view ,even leaving aside Islam, there is always someone,or some group of people who are never happy unless they are destroying somebody elses life .
WW3 isnt far away anyway,, and in that respect Islam is irrelevant,they will just be bit players. But cant they,in the mean time, just piss off back to their own medieval societies and leave us in peace.?.....and take their religion with themand preach to the converted.
kind regards

[Errata]

With respect Erratta one guy throwing acid in anothers face in one city, for whatever reason ,doesnt compare .A guy like that might just as easily thrown acid in someones face because he didnt like people with big ears or something. One guy acting on his own,obviously deranged versus hundreds of thousands of organised people, maybe equally deranged,burning ,looting and all the rest.
Intifidas on authors, film directors, for writing books or making a film which offends the mullahs . There is craziness, ....and then there is craziness. And in my view ,even leaving aside Islam, there is always someone,or some group of people who are never happy unless they are destroying somebody elses life .
WW3 isnt far away anyway,, and in that respect Islam is irrelevant,they will just be bit players. But cant they,in the mean time, just piss off back to their own medieval societies and leave us in peace.?.....and take their religion with themand preach to the converted.
kind regards

Salman Rushdie is still alive. He's not hiding, though he did for about three months. He's had a fatwa against him since 1989. In fact, of all the people threatened with death or actually sentenced to death for perceived slights to Islam, the only one I can even think of that was actually murdered was Theo Van Gogh. And he was killed by a mentally unbalanced Muslim man. So far it is all sound and fury signifying nothing. Now Muslims were pissed over the Danish cartoons. They protested, the protests eventually turned violent. Protest long enough and it's kind of inevitable. But after months of protests in every Muslim Nation, most of Europe, North America, Australia, etc. involving millions of people, there were 200 deaths worldwide. And of those 200, maybe 20 of those deaths were people who were attacked by the mobs as opposed to people participating in the protests. So Myanmar Buddhists killed more Muslims in March than Muslims killed worldwide over the course of several months.
It's not okay that anybody died, that anybody was attacked. It's really not. There's a lot of people in this world and a lot of violence. But for a moment, let's examine similar losses of life in the past few years. The Oklahoma tornado killed more people, A school bus recently exploded in Pakistan, The Factory explosion in China, The shooting at Virginia Tech killed more people, The Sandy Hook shootings killed more people, Kandahar Massacre, Utoya was a lot more... It doesn't even bear repeating how many Syrian Muslims have died at the hands of other Syrian Muslims. And out of all the things on this list, and I admit I only included things that I paid attention to for some reason or another, the only stories I read more than a single article on were Virginia Tech, Utoya, and Sandy Hook. And only because mental health was involved. I can't get all hot and bothered about protests that killed 20 innocent people when I can't get all hot and bothered over Owner negligence that kills the same amount of people in a factory.

[Beowulf]

Islamists attack Turkey 'kissing protest'

AFP - Islamists attacked a group of kissing couples who locked lips in a Turkish metro station to protest a morality campaign by the authorities in Ankara, the local press reported on Sunday.

One person was stabbed when about 20 Islamists chanting "Allah Akhbar" (God is Greatest) and some carrying knives attacked the demonstrators on Saturday, the Milliyet and Hurriyet newspapers reported.

About 200 people staged the kissing protest after officials in the Ankara municipality, which is run by Turkey's ruling Islamist-rooted Justice and Development Party (AKP), admonished a young couple for kissing in the street.

Turkey is predominantly Muslim but staunchly secular, although the government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has introduced several measures opponents see as a sign of the creeping Islamisation of the country, including restrictions on alcohol

http://www.france24.com/en/20130526-islamists-attack-turkey-kissing-protest

[Beowulf]

In Britain, Police Arrest Twitter And Facebook Users If They Make Anti-Muslim Statements

http://www.businessinsider.com/in-britain-police-arrest-twitter-and-facebook-users-if-they-make-anti-muslim-statements-2013-5#ixzz2USKTxrrP