Views about Chris Hitchens, please!

[Errata]

You obviously don't understand what you're talking about.

When I said "Jewish tribes of Medina", I alluded to the fact that the Prophet of Islam himself ordered them to be beheaded (600 hundreds males beheaded the same day, while the women and children were sold as slaves).

See the difference ?
If you don't, I don't care.

Never knew Jesus went to Poland to kill Jews.

You're ignorant and ridiculous.

And what is worse, you have confessed being more or less happy when Copts are killed in their own country. Disgusting.

I understand fine. You don't.

The actual god of the Jews and Christians ordered the slaughter of the Midianites, who had taken in Moses during his exile. Killed the firstborn son of every Egyptian with his own hand, down to innocent babies in cradles.

The infallible voice of god on earth, the Pope, ordered three crusades, stating that the slaughter of the infidel would guarantee a place a heaven. He ordered the death and banishment of Jews from Catholic nations. And his declarations are the largest contributing factor to the fastest spread of AIDS on the globe.

What makes all of that okay, and the slaughter of Jews in Medina not okay? At least Muhammad was a prophet, a flawed man who did something terrible. His god didn't do it. Not the way ours did. Not the way the head of gods church on earth did.

In case you were unaware of the difference, which seems strange to me, Muhammad was not a god. Jesus was a god. Jesus was god, or is god, or half a god, whatever. Muhammad was a man. No one ever implies otherwise.

Jesus did not go to Poland to kill Jews. His followers did. Allah did not go to Medina to kill Jews. His followers did. Every religion has the potential for violence. Every religion has committed, and still commits great acts of violence. A Christian can be just as sure of his own righteousness in killing as any Muslim. It's not the religions. It's the people.

Jews can follow the example of Noah, and see great evil and disaster, yet say nothing. Or we can follow the example of Abraham, who fought his own god for the lives of people he had never met. It's a choice. Christians can follow the example of Jesus, or they can follow the precepts of his church. Rarely do the two meet. It's a choice. Muslims can follow the example of Muhammad the peacemaker, who stopped a war between the major tribes of Mecca. Or they can follow the example of Muhammad the warrior, who slaughtered unbelievers. It's a choice.

And I didn't confess to being more or less happy with the death of Copts. I like Copts a lot. I like them a lot better than I like Baptists. I confessed to being human. Because sometimes I think that everybody is so stupid and so lacking in imagination that they have to actually suffer what they put others through in order to understand that it isn't okay. Because everyone takes a little bit of pleasure in anything that has even a hint of poetic justice. And every time I hear Christians crying out about how terrible it is that their people (who by the way most of them would completely dismiss Copts as barbarians and pagans) are suffering at the hands of others, I want to say "Good you recognize that it's evil. So STOP DOING IT TO OTHER PEOPLE." And I have said it. and you know what they say?

"But it's completely different."

No it isn't. THAT'S what you don't understand.

[Errata]

I don't think so, Mike.
She's become Jewish in some christian traditions, that's true, but the only sources we have told us she was a pagan ruler from the Sidamo region (she led a pagan reaction against "northern christianity"). That we know from the "History of the Patriarchs of Alexandria", but it seems to be confirmed by various muslim/arab sources.
From memory, there is also an Ethiopian muslim source, a chronology in fact, that refers to a pagan queen in southern Ethiopia fin the 11th century, before the conversion of the region to islam.

There was a Jewish queen named Judith. She was the daughter of Isaac and Leah. She was given to marriage to an Egyptian prince, and then two of her brothers slipped into the city and killed all the men, even those who had been circumcised and converted to Judaism. She cursed Isaac and her brothers for their betrayal. And that is the last she is seen. Likely not the same Queen.

[ChainzCooper]

Hi Jordan,

I'm struggling to follow your logic because your previous post (the fill in the blanks post) did seem to suggest that because Hitchens wrote a book about why he is an atheist, he therefore succumbed to cancer. Now, it seems, it is karma that he succumbed - 'some people get what they deserve' - as you put it. This seems to be a very odd statement from someone who has argued so passionately for freedom of speech and democracy in other threads.

Hitchens didn't JUST write about being an atheism. He also wrote a very good book called 'Why Orwell Matters' and several other very readable books. I do not think he was 'always completely negative or bad to others' and i think his cancer was probably the result of being a smoker rather than a bad person.

Regards

Julie

So he wrote a good book, so what? The fact is that the dude spent the latter part of his life insulting people who did not accept his narrow point of view. Sorry if you think its shocking that I think people like that ultimately pay a price for doing that. I would suggest Dawkins drop his arrogance, look to what happened to Hitchens, and wise up
Jordan

[Ally]

ROFLMAO. The irony being, Jordan there is entirely incapable of understanding the irony of what he just posted.

My god, insulting people who don't believe as you do? Kind of pales in comparison to wishing them a painful death, don't it? A narrow point of view? Indeed.

Wise up, indeed.

[Errata]

So he wrote a good book, so what? The fact is that the dude spent the latter part of his life insulting people who did not accept his narrow point of view. Sorry if you think its shocking that I think people like that ultimately pay a price for doing that. I would suggest Dawkins drop his arrogance, look to what happened to Hitchens, and wise up
Jordan

I hope that my god is a little more elevated than the spoiled brat who punches his playmate in the nose for calling him a "stupidhead".

My cousin believed in god, and she died of breast cancer at the age of 36. Am I supposed to believe that the god she loved and served was punishing her for some imagined slight, or should I believe that cancer happens?

[Robert]

Errata, I'm afraid that your god - or anyone's god - does not seem to concern himself at all with human beings, their hopes or their sufferings. Whether or not he exists is a philosophical question. But his existence, if such be the case, seems to have no connection with us whatsoever.

[Errata]

Errata, I'm afraid that your god - or anyone's god - does not seem to concern himself at all with human beings, their hopes or their sufferings. Whether or not he exists is a philosophical question. But his existence, if such be the case, seems to have no connection with us whatsoever.

I dunno. I sort of lean towards this whole "god as a construct of man" idea, where he exists because we made him, like we made justice or fairness. But if we stop believing in a certain god, they die. Like I think Zeus was real, but I don't think he's hanging out knitting on some cloud. I think he ceased to exist. That little thought form popped like a bubble because no one kept it alive by continuing to think about it. And if this is the case, god needs us as much as we need him.

But sometimes I learn towards the Blind Men and the Elephant idea of god, where it's just so big we only catch little glimpses of it. And we end up with a huge pantheon of gods through the ages that are really just fragments of this one huge thing. Like 20 sided dice. I may see a three, and you may see a 12, but it's all the same die. And in that case, it's hard to imagine that god notices us anymore than a blue whale notices an anchovy.

But as far as we Jews go, the non intervention policy was the deal. We get saved, given a homeland, and that's it. He kicks back and leaves us alone until the messiah shows up, at which point some unspecified awesome is going to happen to the righteous. We had a contract, and except for that last bit, it's been fulfilled. We don't have an expectation that he is going to do anything about our problems. And mostly, we don't ask. It's kind of like a contract killing, where you get half up front, and you don't get the other half until it's all over. In the meantime, you don't chat with the guy who hired you. Which is an odd comparison, but whatever. Maybe we should have held out for a better deal, but there were a lot of super involved gods at the time, and there's a lot to be said for being able to work without someone looking over your shoulder all the time.

Personally I'm a huge fan of Ganesha. There's a god out there whose sole purpose is to remove obstacles from your life. Who doesn't want some of that? I can't really bring myself up to the level of full on belief in Ganesha, but he's such a great idea. That's a god for the people right there.

[DVV]

Allah did not go to Medina to kill Jews. His followers did.

Wrong again.

Muhammad said the slaughtering of the Banu Qorayza was an order of God, and this took place during the time of the Revelation, and that horrible episode has been ratified by God : Sura XXXIII, 25-26.

Still don't see the difference ?
Pity.

[DVV]

The infallible voice of god on earth, the Pope, ordered three crusades

Stop demonstrating your ignorancy, please.

The papal infallibility has become a dogma in 1870, and there is no consensus about it within the Catholic Church itself.

But muslims are doomed to believe that the Medina mass murder (not to mention other murders, rapes, selling people as slaves, etc) was a DIRECT ORDER FROM GOD.

Because the Koran is supposed to be the word of God DIRECTLY delivered to Muhammad.

And Muhammad is supposed to be the most perfect of all human beings.

What a gruesome joke.

[brummie]

But then God directly killed countless millions in the great flood,the inhabitants of Sodom and Gommorah,the first born of Egypt his hands are hardly clean. If that is you are prepared to accept the bible as a work of fact.

For me organised religion is mankinds greatest curse provided excuse for the rantings of extremists. As far as I'm concerned people are free to believe whatever religious mumbo jumbo they choose,as long as they respect my right not to.Problems begin when religion attracts the kind of loony extremists that believe that their idea of God is correct and anybody who believes anything else must be coerced into 'believing', this along with the assumption that being a religious person somehow makes them more moral and a better person. The fact is I've seen so much venom and hatred being preached by people posing as religious leaders whether muslim or so called christian sects in US, directed at gays, women who have abortions,troops and even teenagers who dress as Goths!,so no for me a world without religion or gods would be a much happier place.

[Robert]

I dislike the kind of thinking that arises every time there's a disaster. There's an earthquake, or a tsunami, or something similar, and thousands die. But there is always some person who just gets lucky and has a "miraculous" escape. Miraculous? Where was god with the other few thousand, then?

[DVV]

But then God directly killed countless millions in the great flood,the inhabitants of Sodom and Gommorah,the first born of Egypt his hands are hardly clean. If that is you are prepared to accept the bible as a work of fact.

Hi Brummie

No, I'm not prepared to accept the Bible as a "work of fact".
The Old Testament has been written at various times, by various people.
The Koran is completely different is this respect.

A Jew that would suddenly slaughter Christian priests or imams in order to imitate what Elijah is supposed to have done, 20 centuries ago, to the priests of Baal would simply be considered a nuts by its own community.

It therefore never happens, as you may have noticed. And lastly, the 10 commandments are quite more famous than Elijah's murders, aren't they ?

A good muslim, on the contrary, is supposed to follow the Koran's rules and the example of prophet Muhammad. Life is much more simpler to them. Infidels have to live as dhimmis or die, according to their rules, and Jews are particularly hated. And will ever be, because the Koran says so, and because Muhammad himself ordered to kill them, or to sell them as slaves - 16 centuries after Elijah.

Jesus made a miracle to save a Roman. Muhammad told his people to kill, rape or sell as slaves the so-called Infidels.

Believe it or not, but many muslims in 2012 want to follow these rules and spread sharia everywhere.

It would be stupid to argue that all religions say the same thing and advise to be equally violent. As stupid as saying that all philosophers say the same thing.

Jesus and Muhammad are different characters teaching different things. And Leibniz wasn't Nietzsche.

[brummie]

I totally agree that Islam is the worst offender in terms of intolerance.We can all give thanks we live in areas where this debate is possible,can't see this kind of discussion happening in kabul or Tehran. Whereas in christian countries they tend to be secular with religion and state kept seperate,the nature of Islam makes this difficult to accept.Whereas the bible has been able to be adapted to more modern interpretation and ages, the Koran,as the word of god cannot be questioned and attempts to bring more modern interpretations are likely to lead to in fighting among various factions within the religion itself.
Here in Birmingham we have recently welcomed to a local hospital for specialist treatment a 14 year old schoolgirl from Pakistan who was shot in the head by the Taliban for critising their policy of not educating females,indeed apparently she remains a target if she survives.Strange to say on th day she arrived in Birmingham thousands took to the streets of London as part of worldwide protests about an internet film apparently ridiculing Islam although I haven't seen it so I don't know (and have no interest in seeing it). I believe there were some protests about the shooting of Malala Yousafzai in Pakistan but didn't see any worldwide protests seems a strange sense of priorities.

[DVV]

Indeed, Brummie.

Unfortunately, no need to go to Iran or Pakistan to be the target of islamic intolerancy.

I challenge all noble natures who insist that there's no problem with muslims to spend one day shopping in Marseilles with a kippa on their empty head.

[Errata]

Stop demonstrating your ignorancy, please.

The papal infallibility has become a dogma in 1870, and there is no consensus about it within the Catholic Church itself.

But muslims are doomed to believe that the Medina mass murder (not to mention other murders, rapes, selling people as slaves, etc) was a DIRECT ORDER FROM GOD.

Because the Koran is supposed to be the word of God DIRECTLY delivered to Muhammad.

And Muhammad is supposed to be the most perfect of all human beings.

What a gruesome joke.

First of all, it's ignorance, not ignorancy.

Second, there has been nothing that you have said that convinces me why I should be more put out by Muslims killing Jews than by Christians killing Jews. You are both killing Jews. Explain to me why it is more righteous for Christians to do it? Tell me why I should give Christianity a pass on this, but not Islam.

Third: The Pope was a guy who people believed knew the will of god, and he said killing people of other religions was what god wanted. Muhammad was a guy who people believed knew the will of god, and he said that killing people of other religions was what god wanted. See how there is no difference? No? Pity.

Fourthly, Jews have had about 200 years total of getting along with Christians. Jews have had about 1200 years of getting along with Muslims. In fact, when Crusaders were killing Eastern Christians for being too foreign, Jews and Muslims banded together to defend Jerusalem from them. They banded together again in the early 1940s to drive the British out. We have similar issues, similar practices, similar problems in a modern world.

Lastly, The god of Islam ordered violence. The god of the Jews and theoretically Christians directly ordered violence. Jesus himself said "Do not think that I came to bring peace on Earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." They all commanded terrible things. And their followers carried them out. What makes Allah worse than god, when they did the same thing?