Views about Chris Hitchens, please!

[The Good Michael]

Actually, Mike, the origin of the Falashas is still hotly debated. Of course there were Jews in Ethiopia and Yemen in the Aksumite period - but they weren't "falshas". Then, in the 10th century, we have Queen Gudit, who is said to have burnt many churches. But was she pagan or jewish ?
The most likely theory, in my uncertain opinion, is that the people we call Falashas were originally Christians. They would be the result of a sort of christian heresy who, in the Ethiopian context (obsessed with the Old Testament, on the basis of the Salomon/Sheba legend, as you have pointed out), ceased to accept the New Testament.
Fact is that they use the same version of the Bible as Christian Ethiopians and ignore the Talmud.

They were called Beetas or Beatas or something. And queen Judit. They were Jews who teamed up with another group of people from what I understand. I had a brilliant conversation with a deacon at the Church of St. Mary there in Addis over such things. Afterwards we had a great meal of Tibbs (my spelling). I just applied for a job there. It would be nice to get back to Egela.

Mike

[DVV]

You're talking about the Falashas. They asked to be airlifted to Israel in the 70s, and many were. I don't believe they were evicted. Much like everyone else there, they wanted to get out of the poverty and strife of Ethiopia. They did, in fact conquer the Aksumites, destroyed many monasteries and sacked the capital city of Aksum. They controlled the northern part of Ethiopia from about 350 -1650 if my memory is correct. It's interesting that these people through connections to Solomon, and through Sheba remained Jewish even when Coptic Christian beliefs were being spread simultaneously in the land.

Actually, Mike, the origin of the Falashas is still hotly debated. Of course there were Jews in Ethiopia and Yemen in the Aksumite period - but they weren't "falshas". Then, in the 10th century, we have Queen Gudit, who is said to have burnt many churches. But was she pagan or jewish ?
The most likely theory, in my uncertain opinion, is that the people we call Falashas were originally Christians. They would be the result of a sort of christian heresy who, in the Ethiopian context (obsessed with the Old Testament, on the basis of the Salomon/Sheba legend, as you have pointed out), ceased to accept the New Testament.
Fact is that they use the same version of the Bible as Christian Ethiopians and ignore the Talmud.

[DVV]

I honestly think that we will have to agree to differ as my observations do not tally at all with the sentiments you are expressing. I repeat and emphasise that my problem is not with Muslims as people but with Islam itself. As well as the issues that I, as an atheist, have with any theist system, I am convinced that Islam is uniquely problematic in the modern world, even for those who, like me, do not believe in it, never will believe in it and basically want nothing to do with it.
I honestly believe that a propensity to violence, intolerance, imposition and authoritarianism is in the very DNA of Islam. of course I do not believe for one moment that all Muslims share those characteristics but what I am saying is that for that minority of the faith (and NOT the miniscule number the apologists would have us believe) who seek to use the ways of violence to impose their views on others there is more than enough material in their scripture to sanction their activities. However much apologists may dismiss or rephrase problem passages, it is clear to me that there are parts of the Koran that encourage - or at the very least sanction - the use of violence in the furtherance of the faith, especially against non believers.
There are certain core beliefs in Islam that I find repellent - their attitudes to theocracy and its imposition, apostasy, blasphemy etc. as well as the well publicised treatment of women and homosexuals. As an example the blasphemy law in Pakistan currently enforced is one of the most repulsive pieces of legislation of which I am aware.

Agreed again.
And when Khomeiny launched his famous fatwa against Salman Rushdie, he was merely following the example of his Prophet - take the case of Ka'b al-Ashraf, and several others.

[DVV]

What happened to the Jews in Worms? What happened to the Jews in Ethiopia? What happened to the Jews in Russia? In Palestine? In Poland?

What makes you think that Muslims have the monopoly on oppression and slaughter of Jews?

I didn't say that all religions are the same. Just that they all have the propensity for and history of violence.

You obviously don't understand what you're talking about.

When I said "Jewish tribes of Medina", I alluded to the fact that the Prophet of Islam himself ordered them to be beheaded (600 hundreds males beheaded the same day, while the women and children were sold as slaves).

See the difference ?
If you don't, I don't care.

Never knew Jesus went to Poland to kill Jews.

You're ignorant and ridiculous.

And what is worse, you have confessed being more or less happy when Copts are killed in their own country. Disgusting.

[The Good Michael]

You're talking about the Falashas. They asked to be airlifted to Israel in the 70s, and many were. I don't believe they were evicted. Much like everyone else there, they wanted to get out of the poverty and strife of Ethiopia. They did, in fact conquer the Aksumites, destroyed many monasteries and sacked the capital city of Aksum. They controlled the northern part of Ethiopia from about 350 -1650 if my memory is correct. It's interesting that these people through connections to Solomon, and through Sheba remained Jewish even when Coptic Christian beliefs were being spread simultaneously in the land.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Errata
I honestly think that we will have to agree to differ as my observations do not tally at all with the sentiments you are expressing. I repeat and emphasise that my problem is not with Muslims as people but with Islam itself. As well as the issues that I, as an atheist, have with any theist system, I am convinced that Islam is uniquely problematic in the modern world, even for those who, like me, do not believe in it, never will believe in it and basically want nothing to do with it.
I honestly believe that a propensity to violence, intolerance, imposition and authoritarianism is in the very DNA of Islam. of course I do not believe for one moment that all Muslims share those characteristics but what I am saying is that for that minority of the faith (and NOT the miniscule number the apologists would have us believe) who seek to use the ways of violence to impose their views on others there is more than enough material in their scripture to sanction their activities. However much apologists may dismiss or rephrase problem passages, it is clear to me that there are parts of the Koran that encourage - or at the very least sanction - the use of violence in the furtherance of the faith, especially against non believers.
There are certain core beliefs in Islam that I find repellent - their attitudes to theocracy and its imposition, apostasy, blasphemy etc. as well as the well publicised treatment of women and homosexuals. As an example the blasphemy law in Pakistan currently enforced is one of the most repulsive pieces of legislation of which I am aware.
So Errata - I will not persuade you and you certainly will not persuade me so I think we'll have to call it a draw!

[Errata]

I can answer this.... much as in Palestine, they created war upon the Ethiopians, killed the leaders and conquered most of the country for quite some time. This was after they were befriended. Ethiopia holds no grudges, however.

Mike

Actually they were evicted about 20 years ago. A good many of them ended up here, which is why we have the most black members of any congregation in the nation. Which was kind of a weird thing when at the age of 11 you walk into synagogue and suddenly there's a bunch of black people when you didn't even know there WERE black Jews.

[Errata]

Do the rednecks in Southern USA who kill, say, a black man, follow the example of Jesus ?
NO.
Do the muslims who kill Jews follow the example of Muhammad ?
YES.

Don't be fatuous. A religion is not, and never has been the example of the attendant god or prophet. It is a living thing that adapts and grows. A pope says that Jesus was misquoted, that killing infidels is actually a good thing that will get you into heaven, and that becomes the religion. Nor was Jesus the picture of good behavior all the time. True he didn't kill anyone that we know about, he didn't make war. But he was a considered a collaborator. According to his example, we should let the Jihaadists do whatever they want, and not fight back, not retaliate, not protect our own.

A redneck in the south who kills a Jew is not following the example of Jesus. He is following the example of Jesus's most ardent followers. He is following the religion that Jesus set out, as he sees it.

[The Good Michael]

What happened to the Jews in Ethiopia?

I can answer this.... much as in Palestine, they created war upon the Ethiopians, killed the leaders and conquered most of the country for quite some time. This was after they were befriended. Ethiopia holds no grudges, however.

Mike

[Errata]

How can you be that ignorant ?
What happened to the Jewish tribes of Medina, please ?
And by which miracle all religions would say the same thing ? would have the same morality ? etc etc...

What happened to the Jews in Worms? What happened to the Jews in Ethiopia? What happened to the Jews in Russia? In Palestine? In Poland?

What makes you think that Muslims have the monopoly on oppression and slaughter of Jews?

I didn't say that all religions are the same. Just that they all have the propensity for and history of violence.

[The Good Michael]

Well said, Mike.
Whenever I crossed the Red Sea and stayed in Yemen, I was struck by the change. Same stock, but truly another world. A world in which you really have to take care. I've spoken to some educated girls, but I've never seen their face. What a relief when you're back to Addis.

Same stock is right. For those who don't know, Yemen was once part of the Aksumite empire along with what is now Eritrea, part of Sudan, and part of Saudi Arabia. The only similarities left are a bit of language connection and the love for qat. It is no coincidence that these same people who are now Muslim everywhere except in Ethiopia and Eritrea are repressed, irate, and hate the western world, whereas Ethiopians absolutely love it. If Islam didn't exist, it wouldn't be used as such a tool of utter hate. I suppose something else would however.

Mike

[DVV]

Do the rednecks in Southern USA who kill, say, a black man, follow the example of Jesus ?
NO.
Do the muslims who kill Jews follow the example of Muhammad ?
YES.

[Errata]

One of the things I think every person of faith has a responsibility to do is to examine that faith. We use religion in ways it was not meant to be used, or in ways that are personally destructive. My faith is informed by my religion, but not dictated by it. We need to separate how we use religion from how we follow religion. I can use my religion to fuel a feeling of persecution. With the history of the Jews, that's not hard. But if I follow my religion, then I come away with a certain strength. I can use my religion to justify a hatred of a certain kind of person. But if I follow my religion, I can't. Using religion is like using a hammer. It's a specific tool for a specific problem. Loose nail, use a hammer. Hate homosexuals, use Numbers. Following a religion is like traveling halfway across the world. Yeah there was a loose nail awhile back, but in the grand scheme of everything I have learned, it's okay that there is a loose nail. And if I can look at someone and know that they are using their religion to justify their fear, then I know that I can do the same thing, and I need to make sure I don't. God isn't there to soothe fear. He is there to guide you on a journey of discovery. And discovery ALWAYS generates fear.

[DVV]

then Islam isn't the problem. It doesn't allow for violence any more or less than Christianity, Judaism, Daoism, ancestor worship.

How can you be that ignorant ?
What happened to the Jewish tribes of Medina, please ?
And by which miracle all religions would say the same thing ? would have the same morality ? etc etc...

[DVV]

This absolutely true. In Ethiopia, Muslims were met with open arms and allowed to form communities in this massive Christian country. In Egypt orthodox Christians are hated and despised, and their one opportunity make a little money, through the raising of swine, has been taken from them and the swine slaughtered. In Nigeria, Christians are constantly under attack, dying in droves. In Syria they are also hated. When there are two man-made religions and one is opposed to violence, guess which one wins. More proof that man creates religion to fit his prejudice.

Mike

Well said, Mike.
Whenever I crossed the Red Sea and stayed in Yemen, I was struck by the change. Same stock, but truly another world. A world in which you really have to take care. I've spoken to some educated girls, but I've never seen their face. What a relief when you're back to Addis.