Views about Chris Hitchens, please!

[Errata]

Terrible things ? all ?
You can hate Christians as much as you like, fact is that Jesus never ordered anyone to be killed, nor raped.
Never and ever.
What you have quoted is another parable, referring to the fact that he was trying to bring his followers on a new path.
You won't compare this to the murders and rapes committed by Muhammad and his followers, will you ? These murders being, and that is worse, ratified by the law of God.

Moreover, the mission of Jesus was to "offer" the God of the Jews to all human beings (judaism being primarily a "national" religion). It means : e-qua-li-ty.

On the contrary, the Koran tells muslims that the life of an Infidel is of little value.

It's like that, like it or not.

I don't hate Christians. I don't hate Muslims. If I had to choose between the two, I'd probably be a Muslim, but only because there's more similarity to Judaism.

It is a parable. He is telling his follower that their purpose is to go out into the world and create division, conflict and strife. They are to wrench the faithful out of the clutches of the unbelievers. And that's fine. I mean, how else are you going to gather them? But it is antagonistic. Jesus was antagonistic. And I'm perfectly fine with that, but I'm not going to pretend he was all sweetness and light. He was not.

I don't know if you are a Christian. Clearly I am not. As such, I admit to not having the best handle on the nature of Jesus. And not all Christians believe the same thing. My thought is that since god is the Father, and Jesus the Son, as Catholics use Jesus as an intercessor between themselves and god, and as most people seem to agree that god and Jesus existed at the same time, so Jesus was not god on earth, that if one has to choose between the mandates of god and the mandates of Jesus, you are supposed to defer to god. And there isn't a lot of conflict there. But saying that Jesus ordered no deaths (though he encouraged behavior that could result in death) does not in any way mean that god his father ordered no deaths. He did. Many times. Actually that's almost his primary occupation. Christians follow the teachings of Jesus, or are at least supposed to, but they still worship and follow the word of god. It's great that Jesus didn't kill anybody. His God did. He did it a lot. So I'm not sure what exactly you mean by defending Christianity by saying that Jesus didn't order any deaths. Unless he is your god, and not god, or both are, it doesn't really matter what Jesus did when discussing the behavior of gods.

Jesus may have offered equality, but his followers didn't. Else there would have been no rift between Peter's Christianity and Paul's Christianity.

Finally, it makes sense to ask the question "Is there a reason Muhammad targeted the Jews in Medina?" And the answer is yes. There was a reason. And it's a reason both Jews and Muslims agree on, though clearly they have different interpretations. According to Muslims, the Jews of Medina, allies of Muhammad, betrayed him. According to Jews, the Jews of Medina withdrew their support of Muhammad because it became unclear what kind of future they would have under Muslims, whether they would be allowed to retain positions of power. Both side agree there was a betrayal, though Jews perceive having a good reason for it. So Muhammad killed them as traitors. Clearly Muhammad felt t was necessary, clearly Jews disagree. Any wholesale slaughter of any people is not okay. But nor is it accurate to think that Muhammad woke up one day and said "Hey, lets kill all the Jews". He had good relationships with some Jewish communities, bad relationships with others. He did not seek to destroy all Jews. Just those who arrayed themselves against him. Which is very human. But he had enough respect for even these enemy Jews that he allowed them to choose whether they would prefer to be judged under Islamic law or Jewish Law. In Qurayza, they chose to be judged by Jewish law, even though it meant death and slavery. Now it sounds appalling. But it was better to live and die under god's laws than to be spared under Allah's law. It is very rare that a people are offered their own law.

One thing you have to understand is that outside of the Middle East, the defining fear is not of Islam. Certainly they are far more destructive now than 200 years ago, but that didn't shape the Jewish character. In Europe, and thus in America, it is the persecution by Christians that shaped us. And yes, that was a long time ago. But living under that shadow made us who we are today. So despite the fact that Christians have really clamped down on antisemitic behavior, it doesn't change the past. It's not dissimilar to growing up in an abusive household, and now that you are an adult everything has changed. It's in the past, but it shaped you. You can't really ever forget. Forgive, certainly. But not forget. So yes, despite the fact it was a long time ago, we see the persecution by Christians the same way we see modern Muslim problems. I was changed by September 11. But I was also changed by the Inquisition. Both have affected my life as deeply, if not as intimately. I did not watch the expulsion of Jews from Spain the way I watched the Towers fall. But the culture I was born in was more affected by the Inquisition than by Al Qaeda. And that's just the way it goes.

[DVV]

Whenever the violent acts carried out in the name of Islam are mentioned you will get someone saying "What about the Crusades? What about the Inquisition?"

Ah oui, ça, on y a droit à chaque fois.
Quelle bande de noeuds.

[Chris Scott]

"What makes Allah worse than god, when they did the same thing?"
To be honest there is little to choose between these equally fictional beings.
Whenever the violent acts carried out in the name of Islam are mentioned you will get someone saying "What about the Crusades? What about the Inquisition?" Of course Christianity has dark chapters in its history but I stress that word "history." The point is that it is the 21st century and atrocities in the name of Allah are being perpetrated by groups or at state level pretty much every day. Of course there are still examples of violence perpetrated in the name of Christianity by fanatics or those with mental health problems.
But I would suggest that the incidence of atrocities in the name of Islam vastly outnumber those of any other faith and that violence and intolerance are accepted as legitimate means of defending and disseminating the faith by a larger proportion of its faithful than other belief systems.
As another poster said we have seen crowds of thousands of Muslims marching in the UK in protest at slurs on the name of their prophet - but where were those same moderate Muslims to show their opposition to the 7/7 London bombings, or the Madrid atrocity or, indeed, any of the vile acts of murder done in the name of that same prophet?

[DVV]

Fortunately, a lot of muslims are better than their prophet.
Unfortunately, in the course of history, the Church has forgotten its own message.
Still, islam is quintessentially a violent and intolerant faith.

[DVV]

Lastly, The god of Islam ordered violence. The god of the Jews and theoretically Christians directly ordered violence. Jesus himself said "Do not think that I came to bring peace on Earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." They all commanded terrible things. And their followers carried them out. What makes Allah worse than god, when they did the same thing?

Terrible things ? all ?
You can hate Christians as much as you like, fact is that Jesus never ordered anyone to be killed, nor raped.
Never and ever.
What you have quoted is another parable, referring to the fact that he was trying to bring his followers on a new path.
You won't compare this to the murders and rapes committed by Muhammad and his followers, will you ? These murders being, and that is worse, ratified by the law of God.

Moreover, the mission of Jesus was to "offer" the God of the Jews to all human beings (judaism being primarily a "national" religion). It means : e-qua-li-ty.

On the contrary, the Koran tells muslims that the life of an Infidel is of little value.

It's like that, like it or not.

[DVV]

First of all, it's ignorance, not ignorancy.

I'm a broken English poster, mind you

[Errata]

Stop demonstrating your ignorancy, please.

The papal infallibility has become a dogma in 1870, and there is no consensus about it within the Catholic Church itself.

But muslims are doomed to believe that the Medina mass murder (not to mention other murders, rapes, selling people as slaves, etc) was a DIRECT ORDER FROM GOD.

Because the Koran is supposed to be the word of God DIRECTLY delivered to Muhammad.

And Muhammad is supposed to be the most perfect of all human beings.

What a gruesome joke.

First of all, it's ignorance, not ignorancy.

Second, there has been nothing that you have said that convinces me why I should be more put out by Muslims killing Jews than by Christians killing Jews. You are both killing Jews. Explain to me why it is more righteous for Christians to do it? Tell me why I should give Christianity a pass on this, but not Islam.

Third: The Pope was a guy who people believed knew the will of god, and he said killing people of other religions was what god wanted. Muhammad was a guy who people believed knew the will of god, and he said that killing people of other religions was what god wanted. See how there is no difference? No? Pity.

Fourthly, Jews have had about 200 years total of getting along with Christians. Jews have had about 1200 years of getting along with Muslims. In fact, when Crusaders were killing Eastern Christians for being too foreign, Jews and Muslims banded together to defend Jerusalem from them. They banded together again in the early 1940s to drive the British out. We have similar issues, similar practices, similar problems in a modern world.

Lastly, The god of Islam ordered violence. The god of the Jews and theoretically Christians directly ordered violence. Jesus himself said "Do not think that I came to bring peace on Earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." They all commanded terrible things. And their followers carried them out. What makes Allah worse than god, when they did the same thing?

[DVV]

Indeed, Brummie.

Unfortunately, no need to go to Iran or Pakistan to be the target of islamic intolerancy.

I challenge all noble natures who insist that there's no problem with muslims to spend one day shopping in Marseilles with a kippa on their empty head.

[brummie]

I totally agree that Islam is the worst offender in terms of intolerance.We can all give thanks we live in areas where this debate is possible,can't see this kind of discussion happening in kabul or Tehran. Whereas in christian countries they tend to be secular with religion and state kept seperate,the nature of Islam makes this difficult to accept.Whereas the bible has been able to be adapted to more modern interpretation and ages, the Koran,as the word of god cannot be questioned and attempts to bring more modern interpretations are likely to lead to in fighting among various factions within the religion itself.
Here in Birmingham we have recently welcomed to a local hospital for specialist treatment a 14 year old schoolgirl from Pakistan who was shot in the head by the Taliban for critising their policy of not educating females,indeed apparently she remains a target if she survives.Strange to say on th day she arrived in Birmingham thousands took to the streets of London as part of worldwide protests about an internet film apparently ridiculing Islam although I haven't seen it so I don't know (and have no interest in seeing it). I believe there were some protests about the shooting of Malala Yousafzai in Pakistan but didn't see any worldwide protests seems a strange sense of priorities.

[DVV]

But then God directly killed countless millions in the great flood,the inhabitants of Sodom and Gommorah,the first born of Egypt his hands are hardly clean. If that is you are prepared to accept the bible as a work of fact.

Hi Brummie

No, I'm not prepared to accept the Bible as a "work of fact".
The Old Testament has been written at various times, by various people.
The Koran is completely different is this respect.

A Jew that would suddenly slaughter Christian priests or imams in order to imitate what Elijah is supposed to have done, 20 centuries ago, to the priests of Baal would simply be considered a nuts by its own community.

It therefore never happens, as you may have noticed. And lastly, the 10 commandments are quite more famous than Elijah's murders, aren't they ?

A good muslim, on the contrary, is supposed to follow the Koran's rules and the example of prophet Muhammad. Life is much more simpler to them. Infidels have to live as dhimmis or die, according to their rules, and Jews are particularly hated. And will ever be, because the Koran says so, and because Muhammad himself ordered to kill them, or to sell them as slaves - 16 centuries after Elijah.

Jesus made a miracle to save a Roman. Muhammad told his people to kill, rape or sell as slaves the so-called Infidels.

Believe it or not, but many muslims in 2012 want to follow these rules and spread sharia everywhere.

It would be stupid to argue that all religions say the same thing and advise to be equally violent. As stupid as saying that all philosophers say the same thing.

Jesus and Muhammad are different characters teaching different things. And Leibniz wasn't Nietzsche.

[Robert]

I dislike the kind of thinking that arises every time there's a disaster. There's an earthquake, or a tsunami, or something similar, and thousands die. But there is always some person who just gets lucky and has a "miraculous" escape. Miraculous? Where was god with the other few thousand, then?

[brummie]

But then God directly killed countless millions in the great flood,the inhabitants of Sodom and Gommorah,the first born of Egypt his hands are hardly clean. If that is you are prepared to accept the bible as a work of fact.

For me organised religion is mankinds greatest curse provided excuse for the rantings of extremists. As far as I'm concerned people are free to believe whatever religious mumbo jumbo they choose,as long as they respect my right not to.Problems begin when religion attracts the kind of loony extremists that believe that their idea of God is correct and anybody who believes anything else must be coerced into 'believing', this along with the assumption that being a religious person somehow makes them more moral and a better person. The fact is I've seen so much venom and hatred being preached by people posing as religious leaders whether muslim or so called christian sects in US, directed at gays, women who have abortions,troops and even teenagers who dress as Goths!,so no for me a world without religion or gods would be a much happier place.

[DVV]

The infallible voice of god on earth, the Pope, ordered three crusades

Stop demonstrating your ignorancy, please.

The papal infallibility has become a dogma in 1870, and there is no consensus about it within the Catholic Church itself.

But muslims are doomed to believe that the Medina mass murder (not to mention other murders, rapes, selling people as slaves, etc) was a DIRECT ORDER FROM GOD.

Because the Koran is supposed to be the word of God DIRECTLY delivered to Muhammad.

And Muhammad is supposed to be the most perfect of all human beings.

What a gruesome joke.

[DVV]

Allah did not go to Medina to kill Jews. His followers did.

Wrong again.

Muhammad said the slaughtering of the Banu Qorayza was an order of God, and this took place during the time of the Revelation, and that horrible episode has been ratified by God : Sura XXXIII, 25-26.

Still don't see the difference ?
Pity.

[Errata]

Errata, I'm afraid that your god - or anyone's god - does not seem to concern himself at all with human beings, their hopes or their sufferings. Whether or not he exists is a philosophical question. But his existence, if such be the case, seems to have no connection with us whatsoever.

I dunno. I sort of lean towards this whole "god as a construct of man" idea, where he exists because we made him, like we made justice or fairness. But if we stop believing in a certain god, they die. Like I think Zeus was real, but I don't think he's hanging out knitting on some cloud. I think he ceased to exist. That little thought form popped like a bubble because no one kept it alive by continuing to think about it. And if this is the case, god needs us as much as we need him.

But sometimes I learn towards the Blind Men and the Elephant idea of god, where it's just so big we only catch little glimpses of it. And we end up with a huge pantheon of gods through the ages that are really just fragments of this one huge thing. Like 20 sided dice. I may see a three, and you may see a 12, but it's all the same die. And in that case, it's hard to imagine that god notices us anymore than a blue whale notices an anchovy.

But as far as we Jews go, the non intervention policy was the deal. We get saved, given a homeland, and that's it. He kicks back and leaves us alone until the messiah shows up, at which point some unspecified awesome is going to happen to the righteous. We had a contract, and except for that last bit, it's been fulfilled. We don't have an expectation that he is going to do anything about our problems. And mostly, we don't ask. It's kind of like a contract killing, where you get half up front, and you don't get the other half until it's all over. In the meantime, you don't chat with the guy who hired you. Which is an odd comparison, but whatever. Maybe we should have held out for a better deal, but there were a lot of super involved gods at the time, and there's a lot to be said for being able to work without someone looking over your shoulder all the time.

Personally I'm a huge fan of Ganesha. There's a god out there whose sole purpose is to remove obstacles from your life. Who doesn't want some of that? I can't really bring myself up to the level of full on belief in Ganesha, but he's such a great idea. That's a god for the people right there.