Views about Chris Hitchens, please!

[Roy Corduroy]

Did I hear the term modern Christianity. That's my experience with religion. I worship with my family, friends and neighbors. I even played drums in a Praise band for awhile. Our church does good works. We help poor people with food and clothing. During Katrina, we, and all faiths around here helped out, sending aid or going there, and we welcomed the refugees who came here.

I am employed in a large organization and there are many religions among my coworkers. Protestant, Catholic, African Methodist, Mormon, Jewish, Muslim. One coworker is a black man who lost his son to gun violence. He is quite a guy, working with troubled youths now in his spare time. Its part of his church work. The head man of our whole entity is Jewish and he's tops in his field.

There are many new hispanics in our area, and the pews in the local Catholic churches are overflowing. Also, the very troubling problems that have occured in the Catholic church seem to be not in this part of the country.

Every now and then a pastor messes up. Nobody's perfect.

But yes, in my world, in my everyday reality now, religion is one of the positive aspects of life here in America. And no, I 've never tried to convert anybody. Now that I think about it, that's probably because they already belong to their own church.

Roy

[Errata]

Your friend can't re-write the Koran and the Sira.

Please, if you have balls, put your kippa on your head and go visit these parts of the world.

Why not? You Christians ignore whatever you want out of your bible. We do the same with ours.

If I pick up a Gideon Bible, and read it cover to cover, do you think I'm going to get any sense whatsoever of modern Christianity? In the first half of the book god destroys the world, requests human sacrifice, wipes out entire cities, engages in genocide, kills children, saves his people only to punish them again, sets forth laws condoning slavery, the violent oppression of women, allows for the execution of children, and binds his people into perpetual service with no apparent reward.

In the second half, god rapes a virgin. The son of said union grows up to become a Roman collaborator, violent, temperamental, encouraging people to disobey the law, be disrespectful of their elders and their families, declares war on non believers, encourages his followers to be perpetual victims, and then god kills him, his own son. Painfully and horribly.

And of course you are going to say that it isn't like that at all, that I am misinterpreting it, and that certain things are parables, and you have to know the context, and that there are certain parts of it that you don't believe in, or feel you don't have to obey anymore. You will say that I am deliberately reading it in the worst light possible, picking and choosing parts of the Bible that support the idea that Christians are violent. Essentially, you will tell me that I can't just read it without any context or external information, because I'm going to get it wrong. I will make false assumptions about the religion if I only rely on the Gideon bible.

So why exactly do the same problems not apply to the Koran? Why is it that I need someone to guide me through the Bible so I understand how it relates to modern Christianity, but you can flip through the Koran and declare complete understanding of Islam? You can't. You also can't see how appalling every religion is without someone of that faith explaining how it is interpreted. You say the Jesus quote is a parable. An illustrative phrase. But that's not what it says. It doesn't say that Jesus said this thing as a way to illustrate how his followers would been seen in the world. Doesn't say anything remotely like it. Just goes on to talk about breaking up families. So if the bible doesn't say that it is a parable, and it doesn't, why should I think it is? Because you say so. The book doesn't say so, and it was written back then. I am supposed to believe that Jesus actually said the words "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." And I'm supposed to believe that he meant exactly what he said. Why wouldn't he mean what he said about being a sword? He doesn't say it's a metaphor, no one around him says it's a metaphor. How could I possibly know that it was if I didn't ask somebody to explain it to me?

What Muslims have you asked to explain the Koran to you?

[DVV]

So, this is an issue for a lot of people. So I asked an Imam friend. And he asked me why Christians didn't rise up as a whole and condemn the actions of the Branch Davidians. He, and a lot of other Muslims in this country, see Al Qaeda and the Taliban etc. as fringe cults that have as much to do with Islam as David Koresh did to Christianity. I guess they assumed we would be able to see that.

The Davidians ?
They're nothing, and do not count.
What a pitiful comparison.

So what did your imam friend tell you ?
That the infidels must not be dhimmis in muslim countries ?
That jihad is no more a prescription ?
That the prophet was a mass murderer whose example is not to be imitated ?
That Salman Rushdie had the right to publish his novel ?
That a muslim who wants to become a Christian has the right to do so and should not be killed ?
As for Bin Laden, he has been very popular throughout the world.

North Mali....Yemen....Pakistan....Sudan....Muslim brothers in Egypt....Hamas....Iran....Hezbollah...Saudi....Ira k...
There are so many David Koreshs in Islam. What we call extremists are merely muslims obeying the sharia and following the example of their prophet.
Your friend can't re-write the Koran and the Sira.

Please, if you have balls, put your kippa on your head and go visit these parts of the world.

[The Good Michael]

So, this is an issue for a lot of people. So I asked an Imam friend. And he asked me why Christians didn't rise up as a whole and condemn the actions of the Branch Davidians. He, and a lot of other Muslims in this country, see Al Qaeda and the Taliban etc. as fringe cults that have as much to do with Islam as David Koresh did to Christianity. I guess they assumed we would be able to see that.

Uh, Koresh was a different story, as was Jim Jones. These were not terrorists who tried to kill and forcibly convert people outside their cults. America was most definitely against these nuts and did condemn them, with police actions taken. Muslims call each other brother no matter the extreme position of a group, while in the west we call them nuts but allow them to speak so long as they aren't venturing outside of their little shells to harm others. Really you mustn't play devil's advocate here. I know you can see the differences, and there are many reasons for them, and a large part of it is concerned with tribal patriarchal beliefs exacerbated by Islam which absolutely widens the gender gap.
Mike

[Errata]

I am talking about mass condemnation from the millions of good moderate Muslims we are always being told about. If Muslims are incensed enough to demonstrate around the world about a silly badly produced movie which they see as insulting their prophet then I find it amazing that there was hardly a peep from the moderate Muslims in the wake of over 2000 innocent people being killed in the name of their religion on 9/11. I would have thought that hideous act and its like in the UK, Spain, Yemen, Bali etc. did far more to harm their faith than a puerile and amateurish film - but obviously their priorities are different.

So, this is an issue for a lot of people. So I asked an Imam friend. And he asked me why Christians didn't rise up as a whole and condemn the actions of the Branch Davidians. He, and a lot of other Muslims in this country, see Al Qaeda and the Taliban etc. as fringe cults that have as much to do with Islam as David Koresh did to Christianity. I guess they assumed we would be able to see that.

[Errata]

Some did, some didn't.
Anyway, that is off-topic.
We're talking about the core of religions.
Islam says that infidels have to be killed, or humiliated as dhimmis.
Christianism doesn't say so.

Well, this is where things get complicated. Does the New Testament say that people should be killed? Not last I checked. Does the Koran? Yes. Does the Old Testament? Yes.

The Jewish religion has been pretty anti war and anti death unless under threat since the Diaspora. Yeah, there have been a couple of failures in that philosophy. But mostly we've been peaceful. But our religion hasn't changed a whole lot since the destruction of the second Temple.

The Christian religion has waxed and waned on the issue of violence. It began as non violent, but quickly shifted into violent. Then out, then in, the out, then in, and splits and new churches and genuine threats have a lot to do with that. But the religion as practiced by it's followers changes and that issue.

Islam has actually been pretty consistent. It's a warrior culture, and there's no getting around that. But for the most of it's existence it's been under the rule of the Ottoman Empire, and they got along great with their neighbors then. The last hundred years, things have absolutely blown up, and I don't deny it at all. Muslims are more violent. More prone to zealotry, more angry. And we are just going to have to agree to disagree on why, but it's gotten worse. The Koran hasn't changed. The religion has in certain parts of the world. The way it is practiced has changed.

And it does remind me of the Crusades. The old Testament has plenty of violence in it. But Christians did not enshrine that violence into their practice of their religion. And the Crusades, and warrior monks of all things, and the practice changed. And changed again. Islam seems the same to me. I don't think anyone would argue that during the American Revolution the Muslims of the Ottoman Empire were foaming at the mouth for our deaths. They didn't care. They care now. They are enshrining the violence in the Koran in a way they didn't 200 years ago. I frankly suspect that the practice of Islam that once gave us the most civilized culture in the world no longer satisfies a group so angry. And so it changed. Is it now reflecting the Koran better, or worse? The violence is in the Koran, but so were unprecedented rights for women. So was the pursuit of knowledge. And those have fallen by the wayside. But they used to be practiced. Still is practiced in a lot of places.

[Errata]

For the record, Hitler wasn't a Christian.
In Mein Kampf, he wrote that he considered the battle of Poitiers a defeat.
The mufti of Jerusalem was also one of his good friends.
And Mein Kampf has recently become a best seller in some muslim countries.

No. He was not a Christian. He wasn't a Muslim either, but kinda besides the point.

The Holocaust absolutely changed things for us. And will haunt us for a long time. But our culture was sort of fixed before the 20th century. And it's because of what happened in the last thousand years. In a way, the Inquisition, the Crusades, The Pale, put us in a mindset of being persecuted as a people. I think because we had one eye open for those kind of things, a lot more of us survived the Holocaust than otherwise would have. The Ghettos, the arrests, the harassment, the separation from the rest of society, we knew how to do that. That we were prepared for. We were probably even prepared for the deaths, but not on that scale, and not in such an impersonal manner. I think in a real way, surviving the Middle ages taught us how to survive the Holocaust. Although it would have been super if someone had come for us a few years earlier... but that's a whole other thing.

This isn't a blame thing. Christians did bad stuff. And they know it. And they acknowledge it. But what happened, happened. And because it was 500 years ago and not 5 years ago doesn't make what happened less horrible. It doesn't make it more okay than other bad things people have done. The Jews treatment of Palestinians is one of the worst things we have done in our history. And the fact that it was done to us doesn't make it okay. In fact it makes it worse. The fact that Arabs treat them just as badly doesn't make it okay. And the fact that we don't do these kind of things as often as other groups doesn't make it okay. We did it. We are doing it. And we may think we have a good reason, but it doesn't matter. People should not treat other people that way, and we of all people should know that. We should live that. And we don't. And 500 years from now, we will still have to accept that we did it. An that people were terribly hurt. And maybe even permanently altered by the experience. And I don't know what I would say, but I hope I would say that I'm sorry. I hope I would say that nothing makes that okay. It's what I say now.

You as a person are not responsible for what happened. But your religion was. And your religion may know better now, and that's great. But there are no excuses for what happened 500 years ago. There are reasons, and by knowing those reasons to your bones helps make sure it doesn't happen again. But even if the Inquisition was a 4 on the atrocity scale and other things are a 9, that doesn't mean the Inquisitors are off the hook.

[ChainzCooper]

ROFLMAO. The irony being, Jordan there is entirely incapable of understanding the irony of what he just posted.

My god, insulting people who don't believe as you do? Kind of pales in comparison to wishing them a painful death, don't it? A narrow point of view? Indeed.

Wise up, indeed.

I never wished anyone to die thats not what I posted
Jordan

[ChainzCooper]

I hope that my god is a little more elevated than the spoiled brat who punches his playmate in the nose for calling him a "stupidhead".

My cousin believed in god, and she died of breast cancer at the age of 36. Am I supposed to believe that the god she loved and served was punishing her for some imagined slight, or should I believe that cancer happens?

How am I supposed to know the answer to this question? I'm not the grand architect of how the world works
Jordan

[Chris Scott]

They were there. They just weren't newsworthy. I wondered the same thing myself, so I looked it up. And it was all over the place, tucked in a corner deep in the newspaper near shoe ads. The King of Jordan, most of the Imams of Yemen, the ex President of Egypt, the Saudi royalty, all condemned the the terrorism. Even Khameini in Iran said something, which was really surprising. Every Muslim leader in the US and the UK condemned it. Maybe we weren't ready to hear it, and then when we were it had gotten lost in all the other news. Maybe it was in a bunch of people's best interests to keep us pissed off. Who knows. But people did express outrage. Not everyone of course, most people remember the Palestinians partying in the streets on 9/11. But that wasn't a religion thing, that was an anti American thing.

But the statements are there. You just have to look pretty hard for them.

I am talking about mass condemnation from the millions of good moderate Muslims we are always being told about. If Muslims are incensed enough to demonstrate around the world about a silly badly produced movie which they see as insulting their prophet then I find it amazing that there was hardly a peep from the moderate Muslims in the wake of over 2000 innocent people being killed in the name of their religion on 9/11. I would have thought that hideous act and its like in the UK, Spain, Yemen, Bali etc. did far more to harm their faith than a puerile and amateurish film - but obviously their priorities are different.

[DVV]

For the record, Hitler wasn't a Christian.
In Mein Kampf, he wrote that he considered the battle of Poitiers a defeat.
The mufti of Jerusalem was also one of his good friends.
And Mein Kampf has recently become a best seller in some muslim countries.

[DVV]

Jesus may have offered equality, but his followers didn't.

Some did, some didn't.
Anyway, that is off-topic.
We're talking about the core of religions.
Islam says that infidels have to be killed, or humiliated as dhimmis.
Christianism doesn't say so.

[DVV]

No I know that. I wasn't being snide. I was just letting you know.

Thanks, Errata.
Whenever I'll meet the word "ignorance" in the future, I'll have a thought for you.

[Errata]

As another poster said we have seen crowds of thousands of Muslims marching in the UK in protest at slurs on the name of their prophet - but where were those same moderate Muslims to show their opposition to the 7/7 London bombings, or the Madrid atrocity or, indeed, any of the vile acts of murder done in the name of that same prophet?

They were there. They just weren't newsworthy. I wondered the same thing myself, so I looked it up. And it was all over the place, tucked in a corner deep in the newspaper near shoe ads. The King of Jordan, most of the Imams of Yemen, the ex President of Egypt, the Saudi royalty, all condemned the the terrorism. Even Khameini in Iran said something, which was really surprising. Every Muslim leader in the US and the UK condemned it. Maybe we weren't ready to hear it, and then when we were it had gotten lost in all the other news. Maybe it was in a bunch of people's best interests to keep us pissed off. Who knows. But people did express outrage. Not everyone of course, most people remember the Palestinians partying in the streets on 9/11. But that wasn't a religion thing, that was an anti American thing.

But the statements are there. You just have to look pretty hard for them.

[Errata]

I'm a broken English poster, mind you

No I know that. I wasn't being snide. I was just letting you know.