Parents Raising "Theybies": Letting Kids Decide Their Gender

[Ally]

Ben Shapiro is a highly intelligent man and to call him bigoted because you disagree with him is exactly the attitude that gives us vacuous, spineless, students and universities trying to ban or silence him and others. This subject is a very small part of a wider issue and the wider issue is vastly the more important one. The issue of freedom of thought and speech and pc idiocy.

No, I'm calling him a bigot because he's a bigot who also believes that homosexuality is a mental disorder, and he also believes that women's designated role is to have children and "civilize men". Men aren't responsible for civilizing themselves, women are responsible for that task. I call him a bigot, because he's a bigot.

And as for you finding one single guy, who is a member of a socially conservative group whose sole purpose was created to push their socially conservative point of view isn't evidence. The American College of Pediatrics that you are quoting and stand by also has the considered position that cohabitation without marriage is damaging to the psych and that kids are more likely to be abused by homosexual parents. This is not unibiased research based opinion. Finding one crackpot who supports your view, against all the weight of both historical and peer-REVIEWED research is a different matter.

Peer reviewed research. Not just anecdotal "beliefs". How many actual unbiased studies has Quentin actually done? Oh right, zero. Just his opinion then. How many peer-reviewed studies are there that say gender is not binary? At least half a dozen I can find in two seconds in multiple psychology journals. And again historically there are dozens of societies that have multiple genders and have functioned just fine.

Once again, just because someone believes it, doesn't make it true.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No point in continuing here. Someone holds an opposing viewpoint and they’re a bigot. More Ben Shapiro’s and fewer deranged leftist sjw’s and the world would be a better place. I’ll vacate the rabbit-hole and leave you to it.

[Ally]

No point in continuing here. Someone holds an opposing viewpoint and they’re a bigot. More Ben Shapiro’s and fewer deranged leftist sjw’s and the world would be a better place. I’ll vacate the rabbit-hole and leave you to it.

LOL... it has nothing to do with holding an opposing viewpoint. It has to do with if you make statements that categorize an entire class of people as something, you're a bigot. He's a bigot. His statements, and his hangups about sexuality and any opinion contrary to his make him a bigot. He's a bigot against gays, muslims and women.

You've put forth nothing but opinions championed by the extremist right wing ideology and nothing in support of your statements that is unbiased. But yeah, the problem is "SJWs". Not the actual facts. Because the facts don't actually support your beliefs. A rant by a bigot isn't a fact. A statement by a group that was implemented to put forth their concept of social ideology is not facts. The facts are these: multiple studies have shown that gender isn't binary. Multiple societies have existed with multiple genders. But yeah, the problem is just you know.... SJWS. Not the actual facts. Not actual historic precedent. I can understand why you find this conversation uncomfortable. Because it's rough when the facts don't support your opinions and you just can't accept that. See, I am willing to allow facts to dictate my thinking. I used to think trans and gender issues were BS. Then I did the intelligent thing: I researched to see if the facts supported my opinions. They didn't and I changed my opinion. Everyone should try it.

But nah, just say it's the opposing viewpoint who is to blame, even though you haven't provided a single fact that supports your opinion. Say hi to the flat-earthers and the anti-vaccinators. Y'all are the ones who are going to make the world a better place for sure. If we don't all die of measles and fall off the edge first.

Bye now!

[Abby Normal]

This is so interesting to me-and definitely a tough question! I don't think there are any easy answers.

Ally
do you know if there are any scientific studies on children being raised as Theybies on its affects? Maybe too new a thing to do that?

Anyway, on a similar note-I was fascinated (and relieved)to see how quickly and what an early age my kids got the whole gay thing. and they didn't really care-no big deal and they didn't seem to have any confusion, or interest for that matter. They went to a day care affiliated with our church and we have several families with openly gay couples-men and women. so Im wondering is there any real harm in the theybies thing.

I always go back to the poor folks who are born one gender but KNOW they are the other, regardless of what body parts they have. I mean can you imagine the torture these people go through? so Im a little more open to these types of things.

But Could it actually cause confusion that impacts the child negatively, or bullying they would not otherwise get? or getting shunned by the group? Kids can be pretty brutal, even at a young age. It will interesting when they do do the studies, what we learn about this.

[Herlock Sholmes]

LOL... it has nothing to do with holding an opposing viewpoint. It has to do with if you make statements that categorize an entire class of people as something, you're a bigot. He's a bigot. His statements, and his hangups about sexuality and any opinion contrary to his make him a bigot. He's a bigot against gays, muslims and women.

You've put forth nothing but opinions championed by the extremist right wing ideology and nothing in support of your statements that is unbiased. But yeah, the problem is "SJWs". Not the actual facts. Because the facts don't actually support your beliefs. A rant by a bigot isn't a fact. A statement by a group that was implemented to put forth their concept of social ideology is not facts. The facts are these: multiple studies have shown that gender isn't binary. Multiple societies have existed with multiple genders. But yeah, the problem is just you know.... SJWS. Not the actual facts. Not actual historic precedent. I can understand why you find this conversation uncomfortable. Because it's rough when the facts don't support your opinions and you just can't accept that. See, I am willing to allow facts to dictate my thinking. I used to think trans and gender issues were BS. Then I did the intelligent thing: I researched to see if the facts supported my opinions. They didn't and I changed my opinion. Everyone should try it.

But nah, just say it's the opposing viewpoint who is to blame, even though you haven't provided a single fact that supports your opinion. Say hi to the flat-earthers and the anti-vaccinators. Y'all are the ones who are going to make the world a better place for sure. If we don't all die of measles and fall off the edge first.

Bye now!

So he’s bigoted against Muslims too? The religion of peace......ok.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I always go back to the poor folks who are born one gender but KNOW they are the other, regardless of what body parts they have. I mean can you imagine the torture these people go through? so Im a little more open to these types of things.

Abby, I’d just like to point out that I too sympathise with those suffering these issues despite it being implied that I’m an uncaring bigot. I just can’t see the advantage of the concept of ‘theybies’ when just decent, open, humane parenting would suffice and that surely by giving kids a label it can potentially lead them to being singled out when what kids really want to do is to fit in and not feel like an alien. I’m certainly not alone in thinking this. Yes, I may be wrong in my opinion, but there it is.

[Ally]

So he’s bigoted against Muslims too? The religion of peace......ok.

Er yes.... when someone tweets out that "Israelis like to build. Arabs like to bomb crap and live in open sewage. This is not a difficult issue."

I think you can reasonably conclude they are bigots. But you know, that's just me. I'm sure you can find a reasonable take on his stance that points away from him just being a blatant bigot. It's so nuanced, it could be taken a dozen ways, can't it. Then there's his constant articles about how the majority of Muslims are radical extremists who are going to bomb and murder us all... again, so nuanced. Could mean anything.

[Ally]

[QUOTE=Abby Normal;n704652]

do you know if there are any scientific studies on children being raised as Theybies on its affects? Maybe too new a thing to do that?

The general concept is too new to have studies, but as I have said there are dozens of societies that have multiple gender identifications and children have been raised in these societies for decades. This same hand-wringing over the "trauma" to the kids psyches is the same that has gone on in every societal change from gay parents to single parents. What ends up being proven is: if a child is raised with love and security, they turn out fine. If they are raised without love, and without acceptance and other factors such as poverty and other issues, they don't. We can look to other societies that have multiple gender concepts to figure out how kids adapt. And what it really comes down to, is not allowing outside influencers determine what your child will be interested in. There are multiple studies that show that adults behave differently towards girls than boys, especially in the classroom. They de-emphasize math and science in favor of arts and language. A lot of what we consider "innate" behavior is in fact social conditioning.

Anyway, on a similar note-I was fascinated (and relieved)to see how quickly and what an early age my kids got the whole gay thing. and they didn't really care-no big deal and they didn't seem to have any confusion, or interest for that matter. They went to a day care affiliated with our church and we have several families with openly gay couples-men and women. so Im wondering is there any real harm in the theybies thing.

And this will be how it will be with gender identity too. As with all changes, it will take a while but it's not as complicated as people make it out to be.

I always go back to the poor folks who are born one gender but KNOW they are the other, regardless of what body parts they have. I mean can you imagine the torture these people go through? so Im a little more open to these types of things.

See this is where my brain sticks. Like I genuinely don't even understand the concept. I can't fathom it at all. I understand being sexually attracted to someone but I really don't get the concept of feeling like a different gender. Kind of breaks my brain to contemplate it. My identity isn't "tied" to my gender, so I don't even have a measurement by which to judge. I like pants, I wear pants. I want to put on make up, I put on makeup. I don't ever "angst" over my gender and identity. So it's a very alien concept to me that I don't have even the hope of understanding.

But Could it actually cause confusion that impacts the child negatively, or bullying they would not otherwise get? or getting shunned by the group? Kids can be pretty brutal, even at a young age. It will interesting when they do do the studies, what we learn about this.

Oh I'm sure it will. Kids bully red-heads. Or kids with glasses. Or kids who dress funny. Or are a different religion. They are going to get teased. But that's no reason to shave your head, or break your glasses, or change religion. The key is to teach people tolerance: if it's not a problem that's directly affecting you, let people do their thing and mind your own. I am friends with people from every religion, political spectrum, etc. HAving a flexible mind, is really a benefit in allowing you to experience a wide -range of social behaviors and how it impacts people. From the extreme right to the extreme left and all the variations in between.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Er yes.... when someone tweets out that "Israelis like to build. Arabs like to bomb crap and live in open sewage. This is not a difficult issue."

I think you can reasonably conclude they are bigots. But you know, that's just me. I'm sure you can find a reasonable take on his stance that points away from him just being a blatant bigot. It's so nuanced, it could be taken a dozen ways, can't it. Then there's his constant articles about how the majority of Muslims are radical extremists who are going to bomb and murder us all... again, so nuanced. Could mean anything.

Or you can conclude that he’s angry at those Arabs (who happen to be Muslims) whose stated aim is to wipe Israel from the face of the earth. I can kind of understand why that wouldn’t engender warm and fluffy sentiments from him.

Is everyone who is critical of Islam a bigot? Sam Harris for example or the late Christopher Hitchens? Have they been infected with the mythical disease of ‘Islamophobia’ too?

[Ally]

Or you can conclude that he’s angry at those Arabs (who happen to be Muslims) whose stated aim is to wipe Israel from the face of the earth. I can kind of understand why that wouldn’t engender warm and fluffy sentiments from him.

Is everyone who is critical of Islam a bigot? Sam Harris for example or the late Christopher Hitchens? Have they been infected with the mythical disease of ‘Islamophobia’ too?

LOL...

Wowser. I've seen some justification for bigots before, but that's the first time I've seen "well they deserve it, so it's okay. Some of their group sucks, so it's totally fine to defame an entire race of people." Also a black guy once stole my car, so all black people are criminals.

Man. That's ... bulletproof logic right there. They deserve it for being the religion they are.

Wow.

[Ginger]

Robert, I get that . But things seem to be a little extreme here.

Well, no-one (so far, at least) has been murdered and disembowelled. The study of Jack does lend one a bit of perspective.

[Ginger]

The concept of gender fluidity is not new. ... Many societies have had that concept historically until Christianity and it's obsession with sex and gender-roles wiped out other concepts.

That's rather misleading. The Romans, the Germans, and to a large degree the Greeks regarded male and female as two absolutely different orders of creation, existing for different purposes, centuries before Christ. It seems significant to me that all three languages employed male, female, and neuter genders for nouns as well, although Greek sometimes had really weird rules about that. All three societies, however, saw the role of men as public life, and the role of women as family life.

The attitude of Christianity toward gender is pretty close to that of the early days of Imperial Rome, even though it was much later in history when they were allowed to profess publicly. I wonder if they perhaps deliberately promoted socially conservative attitudes among their members (at least where it didn't conflict with doctrine) to appear more respectable to the public at large, or possibly as camouflage when they were banned as a radical sect? Regardless, the concept of binary gender is part of our heritage from Rome.

[Ginger]

LOL...

Wowser. I've seen some justification for bigots before, but that's the first time I've seen "well they deserve it, so it's okay. Some of their group sucks, so it's totally fine to defame an entire race of people." Also a black guy once stole my car, so all black people are criminals.

Man. That's ... bulletproof logic right there. They deserve it for being the religion they are.

Wow.

Some, perhaps the majority of the Nazis were perfectly decent people as individuals. They became dangerous when they acted together, in accord with their shared belief system. Were we in the wrong, then, to offer violence toward them as a group?

[Herlock Sholmes]

LOL...

Wowser. I've seen some justification for bigots before, but that's the first time I've seen "well they deserve it, so it's okay. Some of their group sucks, so it's totally fine to defame an entire race of people." Also a black guy once stole my car, so all black people are criminals.

Man. That's ... bulletproof logic right there. They deserve it for being the religion they are.

Wow.

I don’t need to justify someone that’s not a bigot in the first place. I didn’t say they deserved it and yet again that’s typical Leftism. You suggest that what you think that I was thinking as a fact. You would find that, by your measures, pretty much every single Arab would qualify as a bigot in their hatred of the people of Israel. In a vicious conflict between two sides harsh, angry things will be said. Perhaps Linda Sarsour is more your cup of tea?

And on the issue of Islamophobia (which doesn’t exist) I have never insinuated that any group deserves I’ll-treatment due to their religious beliefs. But I reserve the right to be critical. Again it tends to be overwhelmingly the left that seek to close down debate and criticism which basically provides a generous aid to terrorism and the more extreme effects of the religion.

[Ally]

Some, perhaps the majority of the Nazis were perfectly decent people as individuals. They became dangerous when they acted together, in accord with their shared belief system. Were we in the wrong, then, to offer violence toward them as a group?

We didn't offer violence towards them as a group. We defended ourselves when attacked against those that attacked. A country, Germany, declared war against other countries. Under the leadership of a single individual, who controlled a country and declared war and invaded other countries. I There is no Muslim authority. There is no single Muslim ideology any more than there is a single Christian ideology. There are sects and cults of Christians that are just as vile and despicable as certain Muslims. Where's the invective for them?

Christians enslave women, brainwash children, marry off 12 year olds to 50 year old men, and preach death to all who oppose them. Christians have committed mass murder against blacks, gays and muslims. Should we ban together and seek to eradicate them from the planet because they are dangerous when they get together as a group? The Catholic church basically was a pedophile organization that allowed priests to rape children for a hundred years. Shall we condemn all Catholics as pedophiles? Shall we insult all Christians for what the worst of their members do? No? Why not? That seems to be the justification for condemning all Muslims.

I mean if you want to get into what groups are capable of doing, the Christian Brits went out and destroyed countless civilizations in their attempt to enforce their worldview on the planet. How is that different than what some sects of Muslims are doing? What is happening now is happening because Christians have attempted to impose their ideology of religion and civility across the globe, for hundreds of years.

So.... do all Brits suck? Why precisely do you, or anyone as a Christian nation 1st World member get to decide, "well we settled how the shape of the world was going to be in 1946. We've decided, an now everyone must agree to it." Why precisely do you think that because "we've" decided this is how it's going to be, everyone else must now fall in line? Why did we get to carve up a country that we should have had no part of, and wasn't ours to screw with, because we wanted to solve a problem for ourselves? How arrogant to think that we get to impose our will on others, and they should just happily follow along. Because we said so and we know better.

Everyone's most extreme members are dangerous. The difference is, you'd be offended if your own type or class was lumped in and categorized by the worst of its members, but bigots have no problem doing that to others. In terms of who has killed more people in pushing their religious ideology, British Christians or current Islamic members, British Christians are soaking in the blood of millions of people.

I mean it doesn't matter. You've got a guy on here championing a bigot, who four pages back said he was mostly "on the left" who is now throwing out insults about leftist thinking. He can't even keep his own ideology straight, he's got no hope of understanding anyone else's so I imagine this is futile.

But as to the reason that Christianity emulated the gender binary system of the Romans, it's because by and large Christianity was founded by a Roman- Paul. He was decidedly misogynistic as all of his books show and the concept has made its way down into all the societies that have had the misfortune of being colonized by that religion. Yes, romans had it first and Christianity was founded by a Roman. So it follows.

Still doesn't make it correct. We've learned a lot more in 2 thousand years. Like the fact that the earth revolves around the sun. Or at least some people have, anyway. But if you want to take a lesson from any religion, here's one from the Bible: Before criticizing the speck in your neighbor's eye, see to removing the log in your own.