Parents Raising "Theybies": Letting Kids Decide Their Gender

[Herlock Sholmes]

I understand your viewpoint Ginger but my issue (and yes it certainly is an issue) is that this is just another part of a pc plot to drive us all further down the rabbit-hole. When we get to a stage, as we’ve arrived at now in Canada, where someone can actually be sent to prison for using the wrong pronoun then it’s time to draw the battle lines. This is utterly insane. HateSpeech is one step away from ThoughError. Political correctness is a cancer that’s polluting the world. There is no such thing as a ‘Theybie.’ Islamaphobia is lie to sustain a victim mentality. More than ever we need clear thinking. Yes I could be accused of being a grumpy old man (I’m 54) or worse but I really do worry about where we’re heading. I won’t be around to see it but the world that we’re going to be leaving are children and grandchildren is going to be one where people ignore major issues like war and terrorism and focus on meaningless trivialities which only exist in the minds of people who go desperately looking for a cause to be ‘heroic’ about.

[c.d.]

Not wishing to be contentious, not wishing to offend anyone............but how is it possible to decide one`s gender. Is it not a simple medical / physical reality ?

Can you write your name in the snow? Case closed.

c.d.

[Takod]

And, while I may be wrong, I doubt that "choose to be male or female" is really what's being asked of the children.

I'm really proud of you that you've read the philosophy and have remained optimistic.

I encountered phenomenology, feminism and philosophy of language at university and dropped out in horror. Simone de Beauvoir would probably have ended more accurately if she had simply accepted that a "womb is a woman" which she rejects so early in The Second Sex.

Here is but one article for the effects of such silliness today. I am sure I can find you others, less controversial, perhaps, of children in their teens who pursue sex-change operations and then end up killing themselves, based on gender inclusivity and hormonal impulsiveness.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5228857/A-10-year-old-drag-queen-founded-drag-club-kids.html

One of the effects of this "gendering" is that children are actively encouraged to pursue sexual interests, long before they understand the implications of the delight they impart in extremely perverse adults.

I don't think restricting children's discussions about gender

NO one wants to restrict kids exploring gender identity, if a girl wants to be a "Tomboy", then they can do so. Or if a boy puts on a dress or feels some soft satins or whatever then no one cares and they have never cared. Just look at Pantomime, for example; you have people cross-dressing intentionally for the sake of comedy.

But why is it funny? To see that big fat man with the balloons stuffed into (and sometimes falling out of his dress) leaping about the stage acting all fussed about everything? Because he's assumed a gender role which we KNOW doesn't belong to him, and this abstraction makes us uncomfortable for him, but then HE doesn't mind, so we laugh - along with him.

But I think if half of the clothes in the boy's room are dresses, and they are treated as "normal boy clothes", if his other clothes aren't for whatever reason clean then he may end up in school wearing it.

If we read this article: https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...uniform-policy

and focus on the relevant quote here; "There were signs that the revolution might be spreading. The Guardian has heard of at least one more school in Wiltshire where one boy turned up in a skirt, although it did not go down quite so well with his friends"

"I don't think restricting children's discussions about gender is going to do much to reform that sort."

No but we should be coming down harder on said parents. Which we're simply not doing and wouldn't dare to do in modern society.

I have a strong fear that a lot of these children who do have these strong, forced sexual influences will grow up to be little Jack the Rippers of their own, or at the very least Ed Kemper; but this is for time to prove either true or false.

I didn't want to get deeper involved into this discussion because it's not really why I'm here, and I like to really avoid it, since there is nothing I can do about it - and there's a thousand social scientists, awful philosophers and journalists out there giving justification for it.

I don't want anything to do with it, frankly, it's cursed ground, and quickly becoming arrestable ground if you come out strongly against it - because what I have said constitutes hate speech, and there is now precedent in the courts that context is irrelevant.

I want my hobbies to be quiet and peaceful without this multi-headed swamp beast turning up in every one of them as serious discussion.

[Ally]

Man you snowflakes sure are easily triggered. Do you have an abiding interest in sleeping with or dating a four year old? If not, what difference does it make to you what genitals it has? If you are so easily triggered by seeing an infant and not being able t0 immediately stereotype it as boy or girl, maybe you need to figure out what your own mental health issues are that makes this so very problematic for you and retreat to your safe space until you sort out your predilection towards children.

These people are attempting to raise their children without gender stereotypes interfering with their development. As a "tomboy" who preferred riding ATCs to playing with dolls, I appreciate the perspective. Parents pushing pink on girls who have no interest in it, or screaming at them for not "being ladylike" because they want to play in the dirt while wearing a dress is an actual thing. As is boys who want to play with dolls having hysterical ninnies just convinced it's going to "make them gay". Having the freedom to grow up to do what you want to do without other people telling you what is socially acceptable based on what you have between your legs is not an extreme or outrageous concept. Until someone is ready to have sex and date, what difference does it make to you what exactly they have in their underwear? Again... your obsession with children's genitalia is kind of disturbing. Y'all should possibly get help.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The insinuation in the post above is the worst personal insult that you could apply to anyone and it’s the worst that I’ve ever heard on this Forum. What would have happened to me as a member if I’d have made the same insinuation about another poster? But hey, I’m not going to blub about being ‘offended’ as it’s the politically correct embarrassments that use this as their battle cry.

The piece says “ ‘is Zyler a boy or a girl? How about Kadyn?’ That’s a question that parents, Nate and Julia Sharpe, say only the twins can decide.” No it’s not.

This is a world of difference from simply allowing kids to play with any toys that they want. This is lying to children. The question of whether they are a boy or a girl was decided in the womb. It’s black and white and beyond argument. No amount of dishonest pronoun pruning can change this. They should stop confusing children just to satisfy their own egos. These kids are politically correct fashion accessories created by people who have decided that a concept that’s worked perfectly well for thousands of years is no longer relevant simply because it’s inconvenient to a very small minority. Enough is enough.

Ive always considered myself as being on the Left. I’ve never voted for any other party than Labour. I’ve always railed against what I’ve seen as the Right’s heartlessness and lack of progression but the Left are now a dangerous embarrassment. It’s about time they started focusing their efforts on real issues and not pc ones which simply create a ‘cause’ for those looking for one and can’t find a real one. Try to imagine a society ruled by these spineless sjw basket cases? It would be a task beyond Orwell.

[Ally]

This is a world of difference from simply allowing kids to play with any toys that they want. This is lying to children. The question of whether they are a boy or a girl was decided in the womb. It’s black and white and beyond argument.

Really? So you're saying that hermaphrodites don't exist? You're saying that XXY chromosome children don't exist? What gender are they? You're saying children aren't born with male genitalia and ovaries? Because it's all decided in the womb? IT's not a black and white and beyond argument question. The fact is, there's lots of variation in gender, besides having a dick or not having a dick, and having multiple variations of sex chromosomes. It's not as simplistic as you make it out to be, and science actually supports that.

[Ginger]

I'm really proud of you that you've read the philosophy and have remained optimistic.

I encountered phenomenology, feminism and philosophy of language at university and dropped out in horror. Simone de Beauvoir would probably have ended more accurately if she had simply accepted that a "womb is a woman" which she rejects so early in The Second Sex..

I'm actually quite narrowly read in philosophy. I hold Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius in extremely high regard, and find some considerable value in Plato and Aristotle. Of the moderns, C.S. Lewis in particular, for all that he's seldom discussed as a philosopher, loosed one absolute world-changer (from memory) - "When I became a man, I put away the things of childhood, including the fear of being thought childish." Apart from Lewis, I find very little of value (although much of 20th century grotesquerie) in anyone after Hume, upon which I think we can probably agree.

Your post deserves a considered reply, and especially the example of the ten year old drag queen. I regret that it shall not have one for several days, as I am embarking upon an extended weekend. For the moment, I'll content myself with remarking that the perceptions and motivations of a child are not those of an adult, even when (perhaps especially when), he's trying to behave as he believes an adult would. Best wishes until then.

[Robert]

In all honesty, I wouldn't have had Beckenbauer in the team :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92vV3QGagck

[Herlock Sholmes]

Of course hermaphrodites exist but this, as far as we can see, this doesn’t apply to those children. If a child is born without the issues that you’ve mentioned then they are simply either a boy or a girl and they should be informed of the fact. Over time they will behave according to their individual natures. The overwhelming majority of children are born without these issues so why do we have to change everything to fit a minority especially when that change would have negligable benefits? Why do we need to change our language and then, as in Canada, have it forced onto people? Can anyone honestly think of anything more ludicrous and anti-Freedom of Thought and Speech as being told that you have to call an individual person ‘they?’ Or even worse some made up word like ‘zu?’ We are sleepwalking into a kind of weird pc wonderland. A proportion of the left believe in ‘‘freedom of speech except for...’’ I personally think that this is a major issue and that we need to say “no” in the strongest terms. If an idea or opinion upsets people then the response needs to be ‘...“tough.”’ Treat people fairly and equally of course. Have sympathy and provide help for those with issues of course. But these issues can’t be helped or solved by simply making things up or changing the language or even trying to silence people or by forcing them to believe things or conform with opinions or ideas that they don’t agree with.

[Ally]

Of course hermaphrodites exist but this, as far as we can see, this doesn’t apply to those children.

As far as you know, they don't apply to those children, but you have no idea. Maybe, tjhe parents who are choosing to raise their children this way have chosen to do this so their children aren't exposed the judgmental small minds of mental shrubs who lack the world view and open-mindedness to accept that not all people exist within the narrow parameters that they've deemed "acceptable". Maybe all the parents doing this actually HAVE intersex children and they are choosing this path as the judgment lands on them, and not their innocent children. But nah, let's just scream about how they suck, and not you know think about the underlying reasons why they might choose to do this.

If a child is born without the issues that you’ve mentioned then they are simply either a boy or a girl and they should be informed of the fact.

And how precisely do you know which children are born with these issues? MAny of these issues dont' show up PHYSICALLY until puberty. Kids aren't given a gene test at birth to determine if they are intersex. A lot of times, these issues don't appear until they are beginning to develop their secondary sex characteristics and then they have the problem of having been raised "one way" that no longer applies to their sex identity. The fact is, you don't always know.

Over time they will behave according to their individual natures.

And the way these parents are choosing to raise their children gives them that space to figure it out, without everyone else weighing in with their uninformed, ignorant ideas of what constitutes a girl, and what constitutes a boy.

The overwhelming majority of children are born without these issues so why do we have to change everything to fit a minority especially when that change would have negligable benefits?

Whose changing everything? ARe you being told how to raise your kids? No? Then shut up and let these parents raise their kids how they want. It's not harming them, and it's not harming you except you've decided to be outraged on behalf of some ideological notion that isn't actually supported by science or sociology.

Why do we need to change our language and then, as in Canada, have it forced onto people? Can anyone honestly think of anything more ludicrous and anti-Freedom of Thought and Speech as being told that you have to call an individual person ‘they?’

As opposed to the anti-freedom of thought and speech of being told you have to refer to someone as she or he? I mean you have no problem forcing your concept of "correct way of speaking" on someone else, but you get outraged if it's done to you.

Or even worse some made up word like ‘zu?’

...uh literally every single word is a made up word. Internet is a made up word. Computer is a made up word. The world changes. Language changes with it.

Treat people fairly and equally of course.

I mean right up to the limits of what you decide is fair and equal. I mean these people aren't even allowed to raise their children how they want without you telling them how to do it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Nice tone.

“”mental shrubs”” “”uninformed,ignorant ideas”” “shut up””

We are being told what opinions are acceptable and what aren’t and the law change in Canada is an example of this thoughtcrime thinking. What happens when a contrary position is expressed? We get outraged shrieking simply because most people don’t want to be told how they should think or speak. I can’t stop people having ‘’theybies’’ any more than those parents can’t stop parents having boys and girls but the last time that I looked, in this country at least, we have a tenuous hold on freedom of though and speech despite the constant assaults. You may not think that this is very important. I think that there’s very little that is more important than this constant erosion. We are gradually giving up on our freedoms to appease a minority. The ‘theybie’ issue is probably not the most important issue facing us.

Ill leave the thread as I appear to be some kind of extremist. I’ll leave the sjw’s to continue their mission.

[Ally]

Oh yeah, absolutely. Because parents letting their kids be kids without having society's gender-stereotyping forced on them from birth is literally going to lead to you being imprisoned for thoughtcrime.

It's literally step 2 in the plan.

[Takod]

Oh yeah, absolutely. Because parents letting their kids be kids without having society's gender-stereotyping forced on them from birth is literally going to lead to you being imprisoned for thoughtcrime.

It's literally step 2 in the plan.

Well yes, actually it is! Unless you want to pretend that Hate Crime doesn't lump you in with the KKK, Hitler and other such people, and if Jack the Ripper was indeed a woman-hating-man, who hated everything about women and wanted to remove it and destroy it, then lump him in there too;

Here is but one article;

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/02/23/teacher-accused-misgendering-child-told-police-committed-hate/

Hate Crime
"Ms Green said: “We spoke to a member of the police force, who contacted the CPS and clarified the position. The CPS said it was a hate crime.”

I'm sure the punishment is light at the moment for such things so people can become accustomed to it, but at what point will you say too much is enough? How do you honestly believe people should be punished for Hate Crimes? What is the jail sentence, or fine, for a Hate Crime? Should people lose their job and be publicly shamed? Be fined? A jail term? Are all Hate Crimes the same? Well the laws on this aren't particularly clear.

aren't exposed the judgmental small minds of mental shrubs who lack the world view and open-mindedness to accept that not all people exist within the narrow parameters that they've deemed "acceptable"

That world viewpoint seems REAL open minded, it's not like it is discarding people's rather good (and differing) reasons for appearing that way to people like yourself.

//

No one is saying kids shouldn't be allowed to express themselves. People are only putting forward that kids should be left to be kids.

Children have decided their OWN "gender" for a very long time. That's why historically we have things such as Tomboys (ie girls with shorter hair who hang around 'with the guys' and play football etc.)

What worries people who don't necessarily agree with all your open-minded talk is the nature of the philosophy that comes alongside this "Let's encourage boys to try out stereotypically girl things and vise versa"

//

Whatever the case, people of my persuasion DO NOT BELIEVE that conditions such as hermaphroditism can be aided by turning it into a public spectacle for acceptance. Because NOT everybody is going to accept you, and why should they? Because you've got a condition? Yeah, that doesn't work. It creates a faux-acceptance, and believe you me, the people being "accepted" feel like zoo animals.

Which in effect, they are. But they don't integrate, they're segregated by-proxy of their condition and stripped of their very humanity whilst doing so.

//

So yeah, I don't find this topic particularly funny or upbeat, it's deeply saddening and deeply maddening that we cannot distinguish between Jack the Ripper, Hitler and accidentally calling somethat looks like a female a girl when they in fact identify as a boy.

[Ally]

[QUOTE=Takod;n704465]

Well yes, actually it is! Unless you want to pretend that Hate Crime doesn't lump you in with the KKK, Hitler and other such people, and if Jack the Ripper was indeed a woman-hating-man, who hated everything about women and wanted to remove it and destroy it, then lump him in there too;

Here is but one article;

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/02/23/teacher-accused-misgendering-child-told-police-committed-hate/

Hate Crime
"Ms Green said: “We spoke to a member of the police force, who contacted the CPS and clarified the position. The CPS said it was a hate crime.”

Now let's be real clear about what occurred in this situation. The teacher, decided to enforce HER opinion on what the child was and spent 3 months ridiculing and tormenting a child who was under her direct care and supervision. That seems pretty damn hateful to me. In fact, I'd call it child abuse. The teacher had several ways she could have handled it, including NOT ridiculing a child. Let's not pretend this is a simple case where a teacher made a slip of the tongue and said she instead of he. She went out of her way to deliberately mock and taunt a child. Yeah, I'm okay with that being considered a hate crime because it's pretty damn hateful, and that woman has no business being a teacher. I am also a grammar purist and I could come up with 30 different ways around the gender pronoun issue without resorting to ridiculing a child under my care. Would you have been okay if the child had been being ridiculed for being Christian or Muslim or Black?

That world viewpoint seems REAL open minded, it's not like it is discarding people's rather good (and differing) reasons for appearing that way to people like yourself.

I'm still waiting to hear one single good reason for the view expressed here. The fact that you don't like it, isn't actually a good reason. The fact you don't agree with it isn't actually a good reason. Now I can come up with a good reason not to use Ze or zu or whatever, because until we all agree on a gender-neutral pronoun I agree that it's ridiculous that everyone gets to make up their own, but in the face of that, "they" though grammatically incorrect, can suffice.

No one is saying kids shouldn't be allowed to express themselves. People are only putting forward that kids should be left to be kids.

As long as "letting kids be kids" conforms to YOUR concept of how that ought to be done. Not one you disagree with. How is dressing a girl in pink required to let kids be kids? How is it required that you know what a kid has between their legs to "let them be kids". How precisely is it a requirement that you know a child's gender in order to allow them to be kids?

Children have decided their OWN "gender" for a very long time. That's why historically we have things such as Tomboys (ie girls with shorter hair who hang around 'with the guys' and play football etc.)

And yet, interestingly we don't have a similar term for a boy who chooses to play with dolls and hair. Why is that, do you think?

What worries people who don't necessarily agree with all your open-minded talk is the nature of the philosophy that comes alongside this "Let's encourage boys to try out stereotypically girl things and vise versa"

Yes, and why precisely is that a problem? You know other than the rank and gross sexism that "worried" mindset represents. These are children. Who gives a flying **** what they identify as? I spent a good six months as a child identifying as a Labrador and wanting to eat my food on the floor with the dog, because dogs are way better than people.

Once again: these are children. People need to chill the eff out and stop working out your own insecurities and deep-rooted sexual inadequacies on their behalf. No on is harmed by not knowing whether Biscuit is a boy or a girl. So once again, what difference does it make?

[George Dixon]

Goodness me.