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Parents Raising "Theybies": Letting Kids Decide Their Gender

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    I can't stand this fad for wacky, made-up names, or incorrect spellings of real ones; apparently "Kadyn" derives from the Scottish "Caden", so why not spell it "Caden"? It smacks either of pretentiousness or ignorance.

    Perhaps more apposite in this context, another pet hate is giving kids a name of the wrong gender - Meredith, for example, is almost invariably a girl's name these days, but it's a male name in the original Welsh, and Paris was an important male character in the Trojan War.

    Finally, what's the idea of using an obvious surname as a forename? (e.g. the actor McKenzie Crook, golfers Davis Love and Curtis Strange, and the tenor Rogers Covey-Crump). It's akin to giving your kid the first name of "Jenkins" or "Smith", and I find it utterly bizarre.

    I could go on, but... mini-rant over
    Whilst researching my family tree, I found a gentleman born in Glasgow around the 1880's called Galt Galloway Smith. His dad had the same name.

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    • #17
      It is perhaps somewhat old-fashioned of me, but I would far rather have a boyfriend (or, come to that, a girlfriend) who's attracted to me because of who I am, rather than because of what gender I profess.
      - Ginger

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      • #18
        But if they were only attracted to one gender then gender is important. You can be attracted to either gender or both of course but you can’t simply choose which gender you want be ‘identified’ with as if it’s a kind of club membership. Nature is often ‘inconvenient’ but it can’t be overcome by wish-thinking which appears to be what an increasing amount of people seem to want everyone to accept. To drag children into a politically correct fantasy is selfish imo. What’s the point in telling them to ‘pick’ a gender when they can’t understand the massive issues that it will cause them in later life. They’re basically using their kids as accessories.
        Regards

        Herlock






        "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

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        • #19
          I'm identifying as a cup of tea. Perfect peace and quiet.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
            But if they were only attracted to one gender then gender is important. You can be attracted to either gender or both of course but you can’t simply choose which gender you want be ‘identified’ with as if it’s a kind of club membership. Nature is often ‘inconvenient’ but it can’t be overcome by wish-thinking which appears to be what an increasing amount of people seem to want everyone to accept. To drag children into a politically correct fantasy is selfish imo. What’s the point in telling them to ‘pick’ a gender when they can’t understand the massive issues that it will cause them in later life. They’re basically using their kids as accessories.
            Gender, however, isn't biologically determined. This, again, is why I deplore the overlapping terminology used to describe both the biological fact of sex, and the conceptual identity of gender. Gender's a social grouping, much the same as 'social class' is. And, while the circumstances of one's birth might favour one's identification with a given social class, it's not absolute, any more than what biological sex one is born inflexibly determines what gender one will identify as. I certainly don't deny that one's biological sex strongly predisposes one toward the social and behavioural characteristics of the 'matching' gender. In that sense, gender is linked to, influenced by, and can even be said to arise from, biology. It's not deterministic, though. Having a male body no more requires one to develop a male gender than having a human body requires one to develop an ability to climb trees or swim.

            So far as children's decisions having unexpected consequences later, that's simply part of life. I'm finding decisions that I made in my 30s and 40s benefitting and harming me both, in ways that I could never have predicted. In the end, children are going to make a decision anyway, as they always have. I think it's better if they make it deliberately, with some thought involved, rather than just going with the flow.
            - Ginger

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Ginger View Post
              This, again, is why I deplore the overlapping terminology used to describe both the biological fact of sex, and the conceptual identity of gender.
              This is intentional, though - it's supposed to muddy the waters so people feel psychologically gaslit.

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              • #22
                So far as children's decisions having unexpected consequences later, that's simply part of life. I'm finding decisions that I made in my 30s and 40s benefitting and harming me both, in ways that I could never have predicted. In the end, children are going to make a decision anyway, as they always have. I think it's better if they make it deliberately, with some thought involved, rather than just going with the flow.
                But can they make such decisions at a young age? Whenever I’ve seen this subject spoken about the difficulty is that the so-called ‘theybies’ are supposedly left to choose whether they want to be male or female and not just how they wish to behave. A biological process has already made this decision for them.

                I predict that one day not too far off there will be stories in the press of parents force-feminising their sons for fashion reasons. Because they want a ‘son in a dress.’ They want to be different. They want to be pc. Kids as fashion choices. I think kids should be allowed naturally to decide how they wish to behave in time. But telling them that they are a boy or a girl shouldn’t be relegated as irrelevant.
                Regards

                Herlock






                "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

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                • #23
                  Speaking of names, I always thought JonBenet to be somewhat pretentious. Poor little girl, but this is not the place to go into all that.
                  By God, sir, I`ve lost my leg.
                  By God, sir, so you have.

                  Uxbridge to Wellington.

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                  • #24
                    Likewise the evangelist Marjoe Gortner. His ultra-religious parents lumbered him with that silly name because they thought that combining "Mary" and "Joseph" was a good idea. Still, it could have been worse; they might have chosen to combine the abbreviated forms of Haggai and Titus
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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                    • #25
                      They won't be making any decisions - they'll be made for them. A State Commissar will interrogate them as to the precise reasons for their choice, and query whether there's any discrimination going on, possibly connected with their upbringing.

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                      • #26
                        Not wishing to be contentious, not wishing to offend anyone............but how is it possible to decide one`s gender. Is it not a simple medical / physical reality ?
                        By God, sir, I`ve lost my leg.
                        By God, sir, so you have.

                        Uxbridge to Wellington.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by George Dixon View Post
                          Not wishing to be contentious, not wishing to offend anyone............but how is it possible to decide one`s gender. Is it not a simple medical / physical reality ?
                          Sex is determined physically and absolutely by the genes one bears. Gender is a cultural/personal construct, and is thus more fluid.
                          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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                          • #28
                            Sam, thanks for that. Still finding it a little hard to comprehend. Must be an age thing. I clearly need guidance . I must find a way to define my gender.
                            By God, sir, I`ve lost my leg.
                            By God, sir, so you have.

                            Uxbridge to Wellington.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Takod View Post

                              This is intentional, though - it's supposed to muddy the waters so people feel psychologically gaslit.
                              Oh, I doubt that. The overlap is derived originally (I have no cites, but am quite sure) from the use of gendered nouns. English has largely abandoned these (apart from the pronouns, of course), but they're a standard feature of Latin-derived and German-derived languages, and therefore a part of our cultural history as well. While there demonstrably are people deliberately resistant to making a distinction between gender and sex, I think that stems from a (hitherto largely-unexamined) conviction that the two are one and the same.
                              - Ginger

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                                But can they make such decisions at a young age? Whenever I’ve seen this subject spoken about the difficulty is that the so-called ‘theybies’ are supposedly left to choose whether they want to be male or female and not just how they wish to behave. A biological process has already made this decision for them.

                                I predict that one day not too far off there will be stories in the press of parents force-feminising their sons for fashion reasons. Because they want a ‘son in a dress.’ They want to be different. They want to be pc. Kids as fashion choices. I think kids should be allowed naturally to decide how they wish to behave in time. But telling them that they are a boy or a girl shouldn’t be relegated as irrelevant.
                                Of course they can make such decisions. Will they make sound and well-considered decisions at that age? Almost certainly not. Impulsive and foolish choices go with the territory of childhood. The saving grace lies in the fact that deciding a gender identity really isn't like getting a tattoo. Think back to when you were eight years old. What attitudes and beliefs did you hold that seemed to you obvious and immutable? How many of those do you still hold? How many times have they changed over the years? And in particular, have your beliefs about the world and yourself simply cycled back and forth between fixed and contrasting values, or have they deepened and become more complex with time? Is your understanding of what it means to be of the male gender the same today as when you were eight years old? Is your understanding of what it means to be of the male gender identical to that of everyone else who identifies as being of the male gender?

                                And, while I may be wrong, I doubt that "choose to be male or female" is really what's being asked of the children. I hope it isn't, at least. What I think is probably going on, and being misreported or misinterpreted, is that children are being made aware that they can choose, if they wish, to deviate from the social norms of gender, and that there's nothing wrong in this. Everyone is going to end up constructing an internal gender identity unique to themselves anyway, no matter what name they use for it. That's simply a part of the process of psychological differentiation that occurs while growing up. Doesn't it seem more likely to produce good results if children are encouraged to consciously examine their own thoughts and feelings about it?

                                Parenting by its nature requires one to make decisions for and about the child. Some of these decisions are going to be based on a parent's aspirations for the child. One hopes that parents will be conscious of and sensitive to a child's own hopes and sensibilities when choosing, but of course it doesn't always happen. The classic example is that of the parent who's determined that their child will be an athlete, although there are infinite variations on the theme. At the extreme end of the curve are indeed those parents who seem to view their child as a convenient way to signal their own social views to others, regardless of the effect on the child. I don't think restricting children's discussions about gender is going to do much to reform that sort.
                                - Ginger

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