Eurozone Groan

[Robert]

"that our parents have worked so hard and given such loyalty to their respective countries"

I think you'll find that it's only their countries when there's a major war on. Afterwards, these countries belong to the so-called (trying hard not to laugh here) elite.

[jason_c]

Yes, it is sad Maria, that our parents have worked so hard and given such loyalty to their respective countries, only to be rewarded by hardship and struggle.

Hardship and struggle being the main human condition since history began. Poverty didnt begin with the Victorian era workhouse, it simply became more noticeable in urban areas during this time.

And im sorry but we have had relative peace in this country for centuries, not perfect, but peaceful enough compared to other major states. IF full membership of the EU & single currency can bring peace, harmony and prosperity to Europe for an extended period then it may be worthwhile joining. Until then its too risky to become involved.

[Limehouse]

Wow, such a moving story.

My mom worked like an elephant all her life, and next year she'll be losing about 10.000-€ annually from her retirement plan through the current crisis.

Yes, it is sad Maria, that our parents have worked so hard and given such loyalty to their respective countries, only to be rewarded by hardship and struggle.

[mariab]

I can still see the picture of my own father, downcast and almost weeping, because he could not afford to buy me a longed-for bicycle for my 9th birthday and his overjoyed expression when I loved on sight the scooter he had managed to scrape a few pounds together to buy for me. He was a man who worked and worked and worked, dying young and exhausted, never having earned more than ten pounds a week.

Wow, such a moving story.

My mom worked like an elephant all her life, and next year she'll be losing about 10.000-€ annually from her retirement plan through the current crisis.

[Limehouse]

What I do know Limehouse is that we have had nigh on 350 years of peace and prosperity and have been more successful than the French, Germans and Russians put together.

In this period of calm in England, the French and Germans have had countless coups, uprisings and revolutions; and lurched between extreme politics and general chaos.

So, yeah, when it comes to what it takes to maintain a semblance of harmony within your borders, I would say we have proven to be more successful than those currently pushing the European superstate.

Peace? Really? How many lives were lost during WW1 & WW2? And where were you when the IRA were blowing us up?

Prosperity for 350 years? What about Ireland and how it was starved into submission in the mid 1800s? And how about 50% of east end children dying before their 5th birthday during the 'great Victorian' period and beyond? And what about my own father's family who were so poor in the 1920s two of their own children would have died for want of medicine if it had not been for a kind, Christian doctor who treated them and paid for it out of his own pocket?

Were you around immediately after WW2 when even bread had to be rationed
and the nation limped along, freezing and hungry whilst the better-offs dined at their clubs and sent their wives and children abroad to escape the worst winter on record?

Prosperity? I can still see the picture of my own father, downcast and almost weeping, because he could not afford to buy me a longed-for bicycle for my 9th birthday and his overjoyed expression when I loved on sight the scooter he had managed to scrape a few pounds together to buy for me. He was a man who worked and worked and worked, dying young and exhausted, never having earned more than ten pounds a week.

[mariab]

These are nice thoughts Limehouse, but in reality impossible to achieve. The best that politicians can come up with are band aid solutions.

I just received a phone call that there's a new provisory administration in Greece and it looks like things can hold up until the summer of 2012. If afterwards Greece ends up in a full collapse and exits the EU, I might have already applied for German citizenship. What's hilarious is that this guy I'm dating keeps telling me “if you're out of the EU, you marry me“ and I keep answering him “but you're a Swiss citizen“.

What's a bit crazy is that I've just uploaded an application for renewal of my US working visum, have been repeatedly asked to marry someone and move to the Swiss Alps
(:-)), am flying to Athens tomorrow (and not particularly looking forward to), and am currently finalizing the budget details for a 10.000-€ additional Franco-German sponsorship application (including publishing costs) for a conference I'm organizing next June in Paris, so it feels like there's a mini EU summit going on inside my head. Feels kinda dizzy.

To FM:
Like I said, I'm all for a subtle government, no interventionism apart from the banks/trade issues. And you really can't compare France, Germany, and Russia as states. Plus the UK and Ireland are not doing too well either, and this has nothing to do with the Eurozone, since the crisis started on Wall Street about 2 years ago.

[Fleetwood Mac]

You sound as if you have never heard of our own civil war?

What I do know Limehouse is that we have had nigh on 350 years of peace and prosperity and have been more successful than the French, Germans and Russians put together.

In this period of calm in England, the French and Germans have had countless coups, uprisings and revolutions; and lurched between extreme politics and general chaos.

So, yeah, when it comes to what it takes to maintain a semblance of harmony within your borders, I would say we have proven to be more successful than those currently pushing the European superstate.

[Fleetwood Mac]

It's not an “experiment“, and of course it's inevitable, this is the age of globalization. And it's not disintegrating, it just requires further structuring pertaining to the financial issues.

The original age of globalism was prior to WW1......careful now, Maria. It was all going swimmingly until the German, Russian and French governments ramped up their respective 'superstates'.

Simple logic:

1) There are no virtuous human beings.
2) Therefore the government is not inhabited by virtuous human beings.
3) Therefore the government needs to be kept manageable.
4) Once you increase the size of the government it becomes difficult to manage.
5) The result being trouble for all concerned. These supposed human beings turn to tyranny because power is corrupting.

Ha! Further structuring?! Where will it end? A government ran process to make a cup of tea?

What this world really needs is people just getting on with their mundane lives and the government stepping back into the shadows. Because you see, generally speaking we're not all bad but power is corrupting. And, that principle has been understood for centuries in England, but the very people who should understand it, i.e. the continental Europeans with their superstates, dictators and endless disasters, simply do not grasp this sentiment.

I'd say you've gotta laugh, but it's quite a sad indictment of Europe.

[Limehouse]

It's not an “experiment“, and of course it's inevitable, this is the age of globalization. And it's not disintegrating, it just requires further structuring pertaining to the financial issues.

I agree and I think a 'global' re-thinking of financial issues is required. A new economic model is required that can transcend political differences.

[mariab]

I dont see why it's inevitable. It is perhaps telling that even such a brief period of time into the political "experiment" it looks as if its disintegrating.

It's not an “experiment“, and of course it's inevitable, this is the age of globalization. And it's not disintegrating, it just requires further structuring pertaining to the financial issues.

[Robert]

Hi Stephen

I don't remember that sketch but presumably the Greeks would be in charge of accounts.

[jason_c]

To Fleetwood Mac:
No time to debate on this, as I really have to get back to (extremely boring) work. The short version of it: The EU is not a “Revolution“ or a “dream“, but continental Europe's inevitable development.

I dont see why it's inevitable. Things may change but at this moment in time there is nothing inevitable about it. It is perhaps telling that even such a brief period of time into the political "experiment" it looks as if its disintegrating.

[sdreid]

I used to like that show although most people didn't seem to get it which led to an early demise.

[Stephen Thomas]

This has to be one of the more hilarious moments in the history of the "European dream."

A bit before your time I suppose, Robert but there was a funny bit on TWTWTW from David Frost in 1962 which proposed a fantasy division of labour between EU countries. Britain would be in charge of cuisine, Italy in charge of defence and the Swedes would be the comedians. Unfortunately I can't remember what other countries would be required to do.

Anyone know?

[Limehouse]

Ah yes, is that European man I hear urging one another toward the greater goal?; the virtuous Europeans striving for political harmony by means of the state's overreaching powers (now there's a contradiction in terms if ever there was one).

God, the French. Dear me, do those people ever learn? They've been at this since the 1700s when the state syphoned off pretty much all of the revenue brought in through exports.

You see, you've been here before: the French Revolution (and the countless other coups and uprisings), which soon turned into tyranny; and the Russian Revolution, and the German revolutions (and countless coups and uprisings).

Don't you see? It's a myth; a grand ideal with no substance; there is no virtuous human being on this planet.

It'll end in disaster.....just hope I'm alive to see it!

You sound as if you have never heard of our own civil war?