Eurozone Groan

[Fleetwood Mac]

You sound as if you have never heard of our own civil war?

What I do know Limehouse is that we have had nigh on 350 years of peace and prosperity and have been more successful than the French, Germans and Russians put together.

In this period of calm in England, the French and Germans have had countless coups, uprisings and revolutions; and lurched between extreme politics and general chaos.

So, yeah, when it comes to what it takes to maintain a semblance of harmony within your borders, I would say we have proven to be more successful than those currently pushing the European superstate.

[mariab]

These are nice thoughts Limehouse, but in reality impossible to achieve. The best that politicians can come up with are band aid solutions.

I just received a phone call that there's a new provisory administration in Greece and it looks like things can hold up until the summer of 2012. If afterwards Greece ends up in a full collapse and exits the EU, I might have already applied for German citizenship. What's hilarious is that this guy I'm dating keeps telling me “if you're out of the EU, you marry me“ and I keep answering him “but you're a Swiss citizen“.

What's a bit crazy is that I've just uploaded an application for renewal of my US working visum, have been repeatedly asked to marry someone and move to the Swiss Alps
(:-)), am flying to Athens tomorrow (and not particularly looking forward to), and am currently finalizing the budget details for a 10.000-€ additional Franco-German sponsorship application (including publishing costs) for a conference I'm organizing next June in Paris, so it feels like there's a mini EU summit going on inside my head. Feels kinda dizzy.

To FM:
Like I said, I'm all for a subtle government, no interventionism apart from the banks/trade issues. And you really can't compare France, Germany, and Russia as states. Plus the UK and Ireland are not doing too well either, and this has nothing to do with the Eurozone, since the crisis started on Wall Street about 2 years ago.

[Limehouse]

What I do know Limehouse is that we have had nigh on 350 years of peace and prosperity and have been more successful than the French, Germans and Russians put together.

In this period of calm in England, the French and Germans have had countless coups, uprisings and revolutions; and lurched between extreme politics and general chaos.

So, yeah, when it comes to what it takes to maintain a semblance of harmony within your borders, I would say we have proven to be more successful than those currently pushing the European superstate.

Peace? Really? How many lives were lost during WW1 & WW2? And where were you when the IRA were blowing us up?

Prosperity for 350 years? What about Ireland and how it was starved into submission in the mid 1800s? And how about 50% of east end children dying before their 5th birthday during the 'great Victorian' period and beyond? And what about my own father's family who were so poor in the 1920s two of their own children would have died for want of medicine if it had not been for a kind, Christian doctor who treated them and paid for it out of his own pocket?

Were you around immediately after WW2 when even bread had to be rationed
and the nation limped along, freezing and hungry whilst the better-offs dined at their clubs and sent their wives and children abroad to escape the worst winter on record?

Prosperity? I can still see the picture of my own father, downcast and almost weeping, because he could not afford to buy me a longed-for bicycle for my 9th birthday and his overjoyed expression when I loved on sight the scooter he had managed to scrape a few pounds together to buy for me. He was a man who worked and worked and worked, dying young and exhausted, never having earned more than ten pounds a week.

[mariab]

I can still see the picture of my own father, downcast and almost weeping, because he could not afford to buy me a longed-for bicycle for my 9th birthday and his overjoyed expression when I loved on sight the scooter he had managed to scrape a few pounds together to buy for me. He was a man who worked and worked and worked, dying young and exhausted, never having earned more than ten pounds a week.

Wow, such a moving story.

My mom worked like an elephant all her life, and next year she'll be losing about 10.000-€ annually from her retirement plan through the current crisis.

[Limehouse]

Wow, such a moving story.

My mom worked like an elephant all her life, and next year she'll be losing about 10.000-€ annually from her retirement plan through the current crisis.

Yes, it is sad Maria, that our parents have worked so hard and given such loyalty to their respective countries, only to be rewarded by hardship and struggle.

[jason_c]

Yes, it is sad Maria, that our parents have worked so hard and given such loyalty to their respective countries, only to be rewarded by hardship and struggle.

Hardship and struggle being the main human condition since history began. Poverty didnt begin with the Victorian era workhouse, it simply became more noticeable in urban areas during this time.

And im sorry but we have had relative peace in this country for centuries, not perfect, but peaceful enough compared to other major states. IF full membership of the EU & single currency can bring peace, harmony and prosperity to Europe for an extended period then it may be worthwhile joining. Until then its too risky to become involved.

[Robert]

"that our parents have worked so hard and given such loyalty to their respective countries"

I think you'll find that it's only their countries when there's a major war on. Afterwards, these countries belong to the so-called (trying hard not to laugh here) elite.

[Limehouse]

"that our parents have worked so hard and given such loyalty to their respective countries"

I think you'll find that it's only their countries when there's a major war on. Afterwards, these countries belong to the so-called (trying hard not to laugh here) elite.

Well my parents did serve in WW2 - but they also served their country by paying their taxes, doing a good job of raising (or nearly raising, sadly) three children and being good neighbours etc.

You are right though Robert - it's only our country when 'they' are needing a hand with something - like war - or paying off the 'deficit'

[Fleetwood Mac]

How many lives were lost during WW1 & WW2?

Good point.

WW1: a result of Germany, Austria, France and Russia ganging up on one another.

WW2: Germany again.

I feel there is a pattern developing here with the continental European types.

And where were you when the IRA were blowing us up?

Being attacked by terrorist cells, or freedom fighters depending upon point of view, does not compare with your state gearing up for a European war.

You will always be able to point to minor incidents, but what we're really talking about here is political upheaval to the extent of revolutions and coups (an area that France and Germany have made their own).

How many Reichs and Republics are we on now? Lost count a while back.

[Fleetwood Mac]

To FM:
Like I said, I'm all for a subtle government, no interventionism apart from the banks/trade issues. And you really can't compare France, Germany, and Russia as states. Plus the UK and Ireland are not doing too well either, and this has nothing to do with the Eurozone, since the crisis started on Wall Street about 2 years ago.

Let's see: you want 'subtle' government by means of more government layer, bureaucracy, power, politicians etc.

Interventionism in the area of banks and trade? Just like the left isn't it: intervene in areas they don't like. The good old slippery slope to disaster. Don't you realise that this is the exact thinking that created Hitler, Stalin and assorted authoritarians?

[Limehouse]

[QUOTE=Fleetwood Mac;197382]Good point.

WW1: a result of Germany, Austria, France and Russia ganging up on one another.

WW2: Germany again.

I feel there is a pattern developing here with the continental European types.
QUOTE]

But these were WORLD wars. They may have started in Europe but they were symptomatic of at least three great Empire builders wanting to extend their boundaries and their influence - and this included Britain. This is particularly true of WW1 - and remember that at that time our royal family were related to almost all of the royal households in Europe. Why was that do you think?

As for WW2 - well this came about as a result of what was agreed after WW1 and that involved France, Britain and America. Germany was screwed and that allowed the rise of Hitler and the scapegoating he imposed on easy targets.

If, as you say, there has been 'realtive peace and prosperity' in this country - much the same can be said of parts of Europe, and that has been achieved by left-wing politics and true democracy.

[Fleetwood Mac]

achieved by left-wing politics and true democracy.

Aye, the left know all about the one true way to salvation.

I mean, they kill for it.

Left-wing politics and true democracy eh, god, who would have thought it?

Assuming the defintion of totalitarianism is censorship, and I feel this is a fair statement, and assuming the left will censor everything from 'the banks' to 'the racists' then I feel the left and democracy are at two opposing ends of the political spectrum.

What, you just want to make us all equal? I don't want to be 'equal'. Please, mind your own.

[jason_c]

Aye, the left know all about the one true way to salvation.

I mean, they kill for it.

Left-wing politics and true democracy eh, god, who would have thought it?

Assuming the defintion of totalitarianism is censorship, and I feel this is a fair statement, and assuming the left will censor everything from 'the banks' to 'the racists' then I feel the left and democracy are at two opposingends of the political spectrum.

What, you just want to make us all equal? I don't want to be 'equal'. Please, mind your own.

And they also wish to "censor" tomato ketchup.

[mariab]

And they also wish to "censor" tomato ketchup.

The French puke at the mere idea of ketchup. For real.

[Fleetwood Mac]

As for WW2 - well this came about as a result of what was agreed after WW1 and that involved France, Britain and America. Germany was screwed and that allowed the rise of Hitler and the scapegoating he imposed on easy targets.

Nonsense.

Germany imposed a harsher treaty on both France in 1870 and Russia in 1917. What did the Germans expect? Tea and scones and let's all be mates?

And, Germany paid next to nothing of her reparations in real terms.

Germany had unfinished business amounting to her belief that she was the rightful heir to the continental European throne.

And, you'll find that it was the British Government who prevented France from seizing sizeable parts of German territory. The British would not allow that and instead offered her a guarantee of French sovereignty. Again, you're struggling with the facts. Again, it was the British Government who very soon after WW1 pushed for leniency when dealing with the Germans.