Eurozone Groan

[Limehouse]

Yes, me Limehouse, I said that.

Because that's what left-wing politics is, although on a smaller scale than say Stalin. You want to ban/censor things, and that is the definition of totalitarianism. Now, I don't expect you to understand because the left, in their equality and fairness mission, have convinced themselves they're virtuous; and as such are totally blind to their totalitarian tendancies.

In essence, the left and the extreme right are the exact the same people. All wanting to ban stuff they don't like; the only difference being that you're shouting about different things.

And this ties in neatly with Europe. Always looking to the new, greatest ideal; never sceptical of what the government can actually achieve; always looking to relinquish more individual control over the individual's life.

There is one absolute constant: you give the government too much power and the lunatics will take over the asylum. They haven't grasped this in Europe.

Firstly, I don't think you understand left-wing politics at all. For a start, 'the left' - as you keep calling it - is not one great homogenous lump. It is a range of ideas and ideals, opinions and plans, arguments and propositions. Additionally, it is not static, it is fluid and even - to some extent- in a state of flux. It is not established but contested and re-contested - just like other political and economic systems.

Secondly, you keeping telling us what we think and what we want to do ('you want to ban/censor things' bla, bla, bla) Well, yes - the left does want to censor some things (sex with children, the flogging of homosexuals, the gassing of Jews etc) - but that is not ALL the left does.

I agree with one thing though - the extreme left and the extreme right are identical - but most people do not position themselves within those extremes.

I certainly do not see the left as 'virtuous' because I see it as the natural state of things. It could just as easily be said that anyone's view, just becasue it is based on their principles, is seen by them as 'virtuous'.

[Fleetwood Mac]

You're not wrong, but the French have always loved an uproar, and Germany is a relatively new country. It just got stabilized with its recent reunification.
And you know that the British killed one of their kings MUCH earlier than the French, only the British (typically) didn't make a fuss about it. ;-)

The point is, Maria, we learned the lesson much earlier; a lesson the Europeans are still struggling to come to grips with.

A lesson instructed by John Locke, which in part was a reaction to the worst excesses of the French state, which, at a time when France exported a lot of its goods around the world, syphoned off much of the revenue brought in.

And, it was this understanding in England, mainly tolerance and the freedom to pursue individual initiatives, which makes us different to you: you want more layers of government which can only mean greater state intrusion into your lives; whereas we have been successful on the back of individual initiatives.

We don't want to give that up. In a nutshell, we're more cycnical of government intentions and more sceptical when debating what the government can actually achieve.

You know, in France the government can have a new railway line knocked up in the crack; in England there are countless petitions "not in my back garden" and the process is much, much slower. Now, you could argue that there are economic benefits to the French government's control over everyday life, but, and it's a big but: the government are the servants of the people as opposed to the other way round.

[jason_c]

Limehouse is completely correct on this.

Which was as much due to Wilsonian ideals of nationhood. This lead to many ethnic Germans becoming minorities(sometimes persecuted) in numerous European states.

And yes, Germany paid next to nothing back in reparations. Certainly an insignificant amount compared to that which Germany has paid to the EU. Financially the post WW1 settlement wasnt overly harsh on Germany. The Germans themselves had demanded much harsher settlement from Bolshevik Russia at the treaty of Brest-Litovsk.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Who said anything about totalitarianism? Only you.

Norway manage democracy and left wing politics quite well - at least they did until a right-wing madman tried to put an end to it.

Yes, me Limehouse, I said that.

Because that's what left-wing politics is, although on a smaller scale than say Stalin. You want to ban/censor things, and that is the definition of totalitarianism. Now, I don't expect you to understand because the left, in their equality and fairness mission, have convinced themselves they're virtuous; and as such are totally blind to their totalitarian tendancies.

In essence, the left and the extreme right are the exact the same people. All wanting to ban stuff they don't like; the only difference being that you're shouting about different things.

And this ties in neatly with Europe. Always looking to the new, greatest ideal; never sceptical of what the government can actually achieve; always looking to relinquish more individual control over the individual's life.

There is one absolute constant: you give the government too much power and the lunatics will take over the asylum. They haven't grasped this in Europe.

[Limehouse]

Aye, the left know all about the one true way to salvation.

I mean, they kill for it.

Left-wing politics and true democracy eh, god, who would have thought it?

Assuming the defintion of totalitarianism is censorship, and I feel this is a fair statement, and assuming the left will censor everything from 'the banks' to 'the racists' then I feel the left and democracy are at two opposing ends of the political spectrum.

What, you just want to make us all equal? I don't want to be 'equal'. Please, mind your own.

Who said anything about totalitarianism? Only you.

Norway manage democracy and left wing politics quite well - at least they did until a right-wing madman tried to put an end to it.

[mariab]

How many Reichs and Republics are we on now? Lost count a while back.

You're not wrong, but the French have always loved an uproar, and Germany is a relatively new country. It just got stabilized with its recent reunification.
And you know that the British killed one of their kings MUCH earlier than the French, only the British (typically) didn't make a fuss about it. ;-)

[mariab]

As for WW2 - well this came about as a result of what was agreed after WW1 and that involved France, Britain and America. Germany was screwed and that allowed the rise of Hitler and the scapegoating he imposed on easy targets.

Limehouse is completely correct on this.

[Fleetwood Mac]

As for WW2 - well this came about as a result of what was agreed after WW1 and that involved France, Britain and America. Germany was screwed and that allowed the rise of Hitler and the scapegoating he imposed on easy targets.

Nonsense.

Germany imposed a harsher treaty on both France in 1870 and Russia in 1917. What did the Germans expect? Tea and scones and let's all be mates?

And, Germany paid next to nothing of her reparations in real terms.

Germany had unfinished business amounting to her belief that she was the rightful heir to the continental European throne.

And, you'll find that it was the British Government who prevented France from seizing sizeable parts of German territory. The British would not allow that and instead offered her a guarantee of French sovereignty. Again, you're struggling with the facts. Again, it was the British Government who very soon after WW1 pushed for leniency when dealing with the Germans.

[mariab]

And they also wish to "censor" tomato ketchup.

The French puke at the mere idea of ketchup. For real.

[jason_c]

Aye, the left know all about the one true way to salvation.

I mean, they kill for it.

Left-wing politics and true democracy eh, god, who would have thought it?

Assuming the defintion of totalitarianism is censorship, and I feel this is a fair statement, and assuming the left will censor everything from 'the banks' to 'the racists' then I feel the left and democracy are at two opposingends of the political spectrum.

What, you just want to make us all equal? I don't want to be 'equal'. Please, mind your own.

And they also wish to "censor" tomato ketchup.

[Fleetwood Mac]

achieved by left-wing politics and true democracy.

Aye, the left know all about the one true way to salvation.

I mean, they kill for it.

Left-wing politics and true democracy eh, god, who would have thought it?

Assuming the defintion of totalitarianism is censorship, and I feel this is a fair statement, and assuming the left will censor everything from 'the banks' to 'the racists' then I feel the left and democracy are at two opposing ends of the political spectrum.

What, you just want to make us all equal? I don't want to be 'equal'. Please, mind your own.

[Limehouse]

[QUOTE=Fleetwood Mac;197382]Good point.

WW1: a result of Germany, Austria, France and Russia ganging up on one another.

WW2: Germany again.

I feel there is a pattern developing here with the continental European types.
QUOTE]

But these were WORLD wars. They may have started in Europe but they were symptomatic of at least three great Empire builders wanting to extend their boundaries and their influence - and this included Britain. This is particularly true of WW1 - and remember that at that time our royal family were related to almost all of the royal households in Europe. Why was that do you think?

As for WW2 - well this came about as a result of what was agreed after WW1 and that involved France, Britain and America. Germany was screwed and that allowed the rise of Hitler and the scapegoating he imposed on easy targets.

If, as you say, there has been 'realtive peace and prosperity' in this country - much the same can be said of parts of Europe, and that has been achieved by left-wing politics and true democracy.

[Fleetwood Mac]

To FM:
Like I said, I'm all for a subtle government, no interventionism apart from the banks/trade issues. And you really can't compare France, Germany, and Russia as states. Plus the UK and Ireland are not doing too well either, and this has nothing to do with the Eurozone, since the crisis started on Wall Street about 2 years ago.

Let's see: you want 'subtle' government by means of more government layer, bureaucracy, power, politicians etc.

Interventionism in the area of banks and trade? Just like the left isn't it: intervene in areas they don't like. The good old slippery slope to disaster. Don't you realise that this is the exact thinking that created Hitler, Stalin and assorted authoritarians?

[Fleetwood Mac]

How many lives were lost during WW1 & WW2?

Good point.

WW1: a result of Germany, Austria, France and Russia ganging up on one another.

WW2: Germany again.

I feel there is a pattern developing here with the continental European types.

And where were you when the IRA were blowing us up?

Being attacked by terrorist cells, or freedom fighters depending upon point of view, does not compare with your state gearing up for a European war.

You will always be able to point to minor incidents, but what we're really talking about here is political upheaval to the extent of revolutions and coups (an area that France and Germany have made their own).

How many Reichs and Republics are we on now? Lost count a while back.

[Limehouse]

"that our parents have worked so hard and given such loyalty to their respective countries"

I think you'll find that it's only their countries when there's a major war on. Afterwards, these countries belong to the so-called (trying hard not to laugh here) elite.

Well my parents did serve in WW2 - but they also served their country by paying their taxes, doing a good job of raising (or nearly raising, sadly) three children and being good neighbours etc.

You are right though Robert - it's only our country when 'they' are needing a hand with something - like war - or paying off the 'deficit'