Eurozone Groan

[Limehouse]

[QUOTE=mariab;197282]Love the “to some extent“ part. Should I mention Tony Blair, the Irak war?
:-)
QUOTE]

Bombing Iraq was unacceptable and we should have told Bush to get lost.

However, politically, although we bang the so-called 'democracy' drum as loudly as the Americans, we don't have a federal and presidential system so there are significant differences politically, but that's true for some of our friends in Europe too.

[Robert]

The British people were warned at the time of the referendum in 1975 that the real aim of the Common Market was a European superstate. Nevertheless two thirds of them voted to say in. They are now paying the penalty for being so stupid.

I am a patriotic Briton, but I have to say that the British people deserve to be kicked from one end of Europe to the other and then back again.

[Robert]

This has to be one of the more hilarious moments in the history of the "European dream."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/297461.stm

[Fleetwood Mac]

Still, like Heinrich remarked, the EU is certainly NOT just a “customs union“ or a "common market" anymore, it's inescapably heading towards some form of federalism

Ah yes, is that European man I hear urging one another toward the greater goal?; the virtuous Europeans striving for political harmony by means of the state's overreaching powers (now there's a contradiction in terms if ever there was one).

God, the French. Dear me, do those people ever learn? They've been at this since the 1700s when the state syphoned off pretty much all of the revenue brought in through exports.

You see, you've been here before: the French Revolution (and the countless other coups and uprisings), which soon turned into tyranny; and the Russian Revolution, and the German revolutions (and countless coups and uprisings).

Don't you see? It's a myth; a grand ideal with no substance; there is no virtuous human being on this planet.

It'll end in disaster.....just hope I'm alive to see it!

[mariab]

To Fleetwood Mac:
No time to debate on this, as I really have to get back to (extremely boring) work. The short version of it: The EU is not a “Revolution“ or a “dream“, but continental Europe's inevitable development.

[Fleetwood Mac]

To Fleetwood Mac:
No time to debate on this, as I really have to get back to (extremely boring) work. The short version of it: The EU is not a “Revolution“ or a “dream“, but continental Europe's inevitable development.

And, of course you're welcome to it.

But, don't kid yourselves.

You all have form for believing that a strong state can resolve your problems, only to find out that the strong state adds to your problems.

You've been here so many times, with superstates and militarism, and bizarrely you continue to call for even stronger states with increased state power and more people to call on for the centralised state to have its disposal; and use for whatever means it sees fit.

Yes, I agree. It is the inevitable development of your history. Lurching from one disaster to another.

Your call, Maria. Good luck.

[mariab]

Actually, I'm AGAINST a strong state and I'm all for privatization, but something has to be done against the outrageous stuff going on with the banks – and Wall Street. In the EU this should be attemped both nationally/locally and centrally, and obviously I'm aware of the huge problems (both in politics and bureaucracy) which stand in the way.

[Limehouse]

Ah yes, is that European man I hear urging one another toward the greater goal?; the virtuous Europeans striving for political harmony by means of the state's overreaching powers (now there's a contradiction in terms if ever there was one).

God, the French. Dear me, do those people ever learn? They've been at this since the 1700s when the state syphoned off pretty much all of the revenue brought in through exports.

You see, you've been here before: the French Revolution (and the countless other coups and uprisings), which soon turned into tyranny; and the Russian Revolution, and the German revolutions (and countless coups and uprisings).

Don't you see? It's a myth; a grand ideal with no substance; there is no virtuous human being on this planet.

It'll end in disaster.....just hope I'm alive to see it!

You sound as if you have never heard of our own civil war?

[Stephen Thomas]

This has to be one of the more hilarious moments in the history of the "European dream."

A bit before your time I suppose, Robert but there was a funny bit on TWTWTW from David Frost in 1962 which proposed a fantasy division of labour between EU countries. Britain would be in charge of cuisine, Italy in charge of defence and the Swedes would be the comedians. Unfortunately I can't remember what other countries would be required to do.

Anyone know?

[sdreid]

I used to like that show although most people didn't seem to get it which led to an early demise.

[jason_c]

To Fleetwood Mac:
No time to debate on this, as I really have to get back to (extremely boring) work. The short version of it: The EU is not a “Revolution“ or a “dream“, but continental Europe's inevitable development.

I dont see why it's inevitable. Things may change but at this moment in time there is nothing inevitable about it. It is perhaps telling that even such a brief period of time into the political "experiment" it looks as if its disintegrating.

[Robert]

Hi Stephen

I don't remember that sketch but presumably the Greeks would be in charge of accounts.

[mariab]

I dont see why it's inevitable. It is perhaps telling that even such a brief period of time into the political "experiment" it looks as if its disintegrating.

It's not an “experiment“, and of course it's inevitable, this is the age of globalization. And it's not disintegrating, it just requires further structuring pertaining to the financial issues.

[Limehouse]

It's not an “experiment“, and of course it's inevitable, this is the age of globalization. And it's not disintegrating, it just requires further structuring pertaining to the financial issues.

I agree and I think a 'global' re-thinking of financial issues is required. A new economic model is required that can transcend political differences.

[Fleetwood Mac]

It's not an “experiment“, and of course it's inevitable, this is the age of globalization. And it's not disintegrating, it just requires further structuring pertaining to the financial issues.

The original age of globalism was prior to WW1......careful now, Maria. It was all going swimmingly until the German, Russian and French governments ramped up their respective 'superstates'.

Simple logic:

1) There are no virtuous human beings.
2) Therefore the government is not inhabited by virtuous human beings.
3) Therefore the government needs to be kept manageable.
4) Once you increase the size of the government it becomes difficult to manage.
5) The result being trouble for all concerned. These supposed human beings turn to tyranny because power is corrupting.

Ha! Further structuring?! Where will it end? A government ran process to make a cup of tea?

What this world really needs is people just getting on with their mundane lives and the government stepping back into the shadows. Because you see, generally speaking we're not all bad but power is corrupting. And, that principle has been understood for centuries in England, but the very people who should understand it, i.e. the continental Europeans with their superstates, dictators and endless disasters, simply do not grasp this sentiment.

I'd say you've gotta laugh, but it's quite a sad indictment of Europe.