France Bans Ketchup in School Cafeterias

[Limehouse]

To John, Chris and Ally - bravo!

[Adam Went]

John:

A fantastic post, and thank for you your rather thought provoking and at times disturbing insights into your time as a teacher.

Let me say first of all that it really wasn't that long ago that I was in school myself, so I am well and truly aware of the manner in which the modern day school curriculum works, how much pressure is placed on students and teachers alike, etc etc etc.

Nobody in their right mind would deny that teaching can be a challenging job at times - however, the remarks which led to this discussion in the first place were an allusion to basic teaching mistakes.

That is, teachers educating students incorrectly, often on the simplest of subjects like the plural of a word, or geography.

So I think it's important to keep it in that context because as far as I can see nobody is denying that teachers have to deal with some pretty difficult and controversial situations. But then so does everybody.

Cheers,
Adam.

[John Bennett]

John:

A fantastic post, and thank for you your rather thought provoking and at times disturbing insights into your time as a teacher.

Cheers Adam. It was quite therapeutic!

Nobody in their right mind would deny that teaching can be a challenging job at times - however, the remarks which led to this discussion in the first place were an allusion to basic teaching mistakes.

Fair enough, though I was responding to the posts regarding teachers' holidays.

But true, teachers make mistakes as everybody does and it's a profession where mistakes can have detrimental effects in the long term. Same goes for a lot of jobs. I have certainly encountered teachers who shouldn't be doing it for one reason or another.

Who remembers the teacher at their school who couldn't manage the behaviour of their class, where nothing got done and even the good kids played up? There was one at my school who was just that - the other staff called him 'Captain Chaos'. Strangely, he was there when I started at the school in the 1970s and was STILL there when I joined the staff for a year as a technician in the mid-1990s. How he survived so long is beyond me.

[Abby Normal]

As someone with first hand experience i have to say that most of the teachers here in the US are freaken saints!!!! (at least the ones I have been around and heard about). The nonsense they have to put up with including spoiled, indignant kids (not to mention the violent ones), apathetic parents, do-nothing beaurocratic adminstrators/principals and the assinine policies that come down from the school boards whose decisions are made by people who have PHDs in Logic but never spent a day in a classroom in their lives is unbeleivable! Plus all this while working for peanuts.

Cut them some slack and give a hug next time you meet one.

[Robert]

I agree that teachers have a very stressful job, and that they are having to pay for society's problems. But I can't help thinking that they have brought some of this on themselves. They were in the forefront of the campaign to abolish corporal punishment. So now they have kids whom they can't discipline, and they have to call the police.

I was caned at school and no, I didn't vow revenge on society. Even in our primary school (age 5 to 11) the teachers would sometimes give us a slap on the leg or the arm (boys wore short trousers in those days and girls wore skirts). Maybe I'm eccentric but it didn't make me twisted and bitter. What made me bitter was having to learn to bloody dance.

[Adam Went]

Hey all,

Robert makes an interesting point about corporal punishment I think, it's a pretty controversial subject but the teachers should have some authority higher than just the meek words they are allowed to use these days.

As well as that, teachers, while we aren't questioning the difficulty of their job at times, know what they are getting themselves into. Every one of them has been through the education system already and seen how it works first hand, every one of them knows that they will have to deal with difficult students, difficult parents, challenging circumstances and work for not the greatest pay in the world. So if they still choose to go ahead and pick it as a career then you have to accept that, IMO - as with any job, you must take the good with the bad and if all you see is bad then it's time for a career change.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Errata]

Any adult who attempted to use corporal punishment on me very quickly learned what a terrible idea that was. I have absolutely no respect for an adult who cannot deal with a child without hitting them. Fear does not equal discipline.

I mean hell, a man can beat the crap out of his wife until she does everything he says without question or comment... and vice versa I suppose. And if all you are concerned with is yourself, and with results, I'm sure it seems perfectly reasonable. But it doesn't make you much a human does it?

When I had to switch to public school, I didn't know that corporal punishment was allowed. Neither did my parents. I had an assistant principal lay hands on me once for "violating the phone policy" (they saw me calling 911 for a girl who was miscarrying in the bathroom). I beat the hell out of that man. Put him in the hospital. He tried to file assault charges, but it was quickly explained to him that any retaliation for my very understandable reaction to getting struck by an adult was going to end in his ruin. And I made merciless fun of that man until my last day of school. I would go into his office just to belittle his manhood and his qualities as an educator, husband and human. Put up posters all over the neighborhood with his picture and the words "likes to put his hands on young girls". And he was impotent, because I could stand up in a court of law and tell everyone how he put his hands on me. That shmuck was my hobby. And he deserved it.

He thought he had the right to strike me because the law said it was an acceptable form of punishment. He was mistaken. The law cannot give him the right to hit me anymore than it can give him the right to have sex with me or sell me on an auction block. He learned that lesson intimately, I assure you. He thought he could get away with it because I was young, and surely would be cowed by his authority. I fought back. Hard. And then I made him my b!tch for sport. The second he hit me, he lost all of his power. He gave it all to me to use against him. And he had to suffer endless humiliation at the hands of a 15 year old girl, who generally was a better person than that, but had a very very very bad few years and was in no mood.

People who hit kids, hit kids because either they like it, or they are failures as humans. Same as people who hit animals or beat their wives or gang up on a gay kid and beat him to death. Did I get spanked by my parents as a kid? A couple of times. When they lost their temper. That's not discipline. That's punishment. They decided to physically hurt me because of how they felt, not because of what I did. And they felt terrible about it. And I know there are kids who were hit and are fine. I'm marrying one. My cat is fine, and she was doused in gasoline and lit on fire by some drunk frat boys. That doesn't make it okay.

And quite frankly, if you have to hit someone to get respect, you are not worthy of respect.

[Robert]

Errata, if you are against discipline and against physical force, then I take it you are against the police, against prisons, against armies, and courts, in fact against most of what preserves civilization.

I have heard people say "It's illegal to smack an adult, so why should it be legal to smack a child?" But by the same tolen, it's illegal to send an adult to his room and keep him there, so why should it be legal to do it to a child? It's illegal to take a packet of sweets out of an adult's hands, in the hope that he'll eat his dinner - so why should it be legal to do it to a child? Sooner or later, common sense must intervene - even for liberals.

Question : a 14-year-old comes up to you in the street and punches you in the face. What do you do?

[Errata]

Errata, if you are against discipline and against physical force, then I take it you are against the police, against prisons, against armies, and courts, in fact against most of what preserves civilization.

I have heard people say "It's illegal to smack an adult, so why should it be legal to smack a child?" But by the same tolen, it's illegal to send an adult to his room and keep him there, so why should it be legal to do it to a child? It's illegal to take a packet of sweets out of an adult's hands, in the hope that he'll eat his dinner - so why should it be legal to do it to a child? Sooner or later, common sense must intervene - even for liberals.

Question : a 14-year-old comes up to you in the street and punches you in the face. What do you do?

I'm not against discipline. I'm against physical force. If a pair of adults wants to brawl over football teams, thats their call. In that situation they are consenting to violence.

I am not against the police, although I think everyone can agree there are and have been some spectacular problems with police brutality. That is not okay. I am not against prisons, though there have been abuses there too. I desperately wish there was no need for armies. And certainly our military forces have been called upon to engage in some truly questionable conflict over the years.

The analog of hitting a child is not an adult who commits a crime and goes to jail. First of all, hopefully no one hit the adult. Secondly, the adult lives in the full knowledge of the social contract that he obeys the rules of the land, or he submits to the justice of the land. Should he decide that the social contract does not work for him, he can leave. And people do all the time. We don't want Muslim women under Sharia law to abide by their social contract. We encourage them to change it or leave. And many many people do leave.

An adult who commits a crime (in the ideal) faces no violence upon arrest. And I agree that physical restraint may be necessary to prevent harm to others and to the perpetrator. They are brought in for questioning, they are processed. They are given a preliminary court date to decide if a crime has even been committed. A judge generally gives the person an opportunity to post bail, at which point the adult is free until trial. At trial an adult is presumed innocent until proven guilty, and only after a conviction by an impartial jury of their peers after an exhausting examination of evidence is any punishment dealt.

A child has none of these things. A child pisses off an adult, rightly or wrongly, and gets smacked. There is no examination of evidence, there is no impartial jury, there is no consideration of cause or reason. The real analog would be if you open your door one night and a bunch of guys rush in and beat the crap out of you because someone said you did something. A child is incapable of consent, which our societies recognize legally. They cannot consent to the social contract, they cannot consent to violence, and they have no alternatives. They cannot leave their homes if they choose not to obey the rules of the house. And in many instances, outside of a hospitalization, they cannot even ask for intervention. They have to convince an adult to ask for intervention.

I was struck maybe three times in my life by an adult. I think my mom spanked me twice, and that assistant principal. My parents immediately apologized, and explained to me why what they did was wrong, and what their reasoning was. Other than the assistant principal, I was never touched after the age of five. And I obey the law. I am a good person. Because people took the time to explain things to me, I understand how the law works. I understand the value of discipline. Because fear was not a part of my learning process I grew up to love learning, and to challenge. Because the adults in my life didn't just slap me when I got out of line, I also learned that it's okay to question authority, and to challenge it. I learned the value of civil disobedience. And I never learned to fear authority. It's not as though there is no alternative to committing violence on a child. All it takes is not wanting to commit violence on a child.

And if a 14 year old ran up and punched me in the face? Well, it depends on why, but I'd probably say "Ow" and back off. And I would call the cops. Hopefully family services would find a way to help that kid. Or maybe I could find a way. If nothing else they can keep him under control until he turns 18 and can then either abide the social contract or leave. But I wouldn't touch him unless I had to restrain him to keep him from killing me. And that is easily accomplished without hurting him.

[Limehouse]

I agree that teachers have a very stressful job, and that they are having to pay for society's problems. But I can't help thinking that they have brought some of this on themselves. They were in the forefront of the campaign to abolish corporal punishment. So now they have kids whom they can't discipline, and they have to call the police.

I was caned at school and no, I didn't vow revenge on society. Even in our primary school (age 5 to 11) the teachers would sometimes give us a slap on the leg or the arm (boys wore short trousers in those days and girls wore skirts). Maybe I'm eccentric but it didn't make me twisted and bitter. What made me bitter was having to learn to bloody dance.

Robert, this is priceless. So - you [B]are[B] blaming teachers for the ills in society - because they refuse to beat children, some of whom may well have been beaten severely by their carers every night of their lives?

Sorry - but teachers have to work with parents, carers and various specialists in order to ensure that children and young people behave well. Teachers cannot beat into children and young people, the social skills and positive attitudes that their parents have failed to model to them.

Additionally, I was threatened and verbally abused by a parent who objected to me telling his daughter off for using foul and disgusting language at the top of her voice. What do you think he would have done to me if I had hit his daughter?

I agree with you about dance though.

[Robert]

Errata, what you're saying is that if a child proves unmanageable you should sit down and explain the reasons for the rules in an attempt to gain his consent. Most schools do give the reasons for the rules, but still the kids break them. But it's Ok - all the other students' learning has to be interrupted while you sit down with the child and try to persuade him to obey the rules. And in the case of the 14 year old who punches you in the face, you think it's fine that the police should use force on him, and send him to a detention unit, but if you punch him in the face it's a terrible thing for which you must apologise. Sorry, but if a 14 year old were to punch me in the face he'd get one back.

Limehouse, these people you talk of should obviously not be in a normal school where they will disrupt the other pupils' learning. They should be in a home for idiots. You are so concerned for these unmanageable kids. But what effect do you think they are having on their fellow pupils? Do you think they bully their fellow pupils? Obviously they do. So for the sake of your principles, there will be children who dread the thought of going to school and whose work suffers when they are at school. The health and safety of these pupils may even be jeopardised by the presence of these vicious kids. I'm sorry, but we cannot constantly round down everyone to the lowest level and we cannot constantly be going back to pick up stragglers.

[c.d.]

If I am not mistaken, this topic has to do with ketchup does it not? Just saying.

c.d.

[Errata]

Errata, what you're saying is that if a child proves unmanageable you should sit down and explain the reasons for the rules in an attempt to gain his consent. Most schools do give the reasons for the rules, but still the kids break them. But it's Ok - all the other students' learning has to be interrupted while you sit down with the child and try to persuade him to obey the rules. And in the case of the 14 year old who punches you in the face, you think it's fine that the police should use force on him, and send him to a detention unit, but if you punch him in the face it's a terrible thing for which you must apologise. Sorry, but if a 14 year old were to punch me in the face he'd get one back.

First of all, you seem to have this weird idea that it's either begging and pleading with a child, or slapping him in the face. I have been very effectively disciplined any number of times without any adult pleading with me for my good behavior, or getting belted. And I'm sure you have as well. But you either don't have the imagination or the desire to find an alternate route, so you wanna belt a kid who is acting up. You don't deserve anyone's respect, much less that of a child.

I went to school with a kid who got paddled a few times for acting up in class. After a few months, he disappeared. Turns out that the reason he was such a behavior problem was that his Dad was raping him on the weekends. He goes to school, and acts out, looking for any kind of attention that isn't sexual, and they hit him with a bat. Sound fair to you? Well it probably does. He disappeared because his Dad punctured his rectum, and he had to be hospitalized, and his father finally couldn't explain it away. He was removed from house. Switched schools. Do you think he trusts adults today? Do you think he trusts authority? But you probably don't care what happened to him, as long as the majority was served. How terribly socialist.

You deal with a kid who is acting up. You do not let the behavior stand. And if you can't think of a way to do that without physically harming a child, you should not be allowed near children. You probably also should not be allowed near animals, the disabled, anyone physically smaller or weaker than you, anyone else you might want to physically lash out at when they do not conform to your specifications.

I don't know why a 14 year old would randomly run up and punch me. But as it is not a regular occurrence, I would assume that there is something terribly wrong with that kid. Perhaps he is intellectually challenged, retarded you would say. Yeah you should totally punch a retarded kid in the face. THAT will teach him. Maybe the kid is desperate for attention. Personally, I would want to know why. Maybe the kid is high as hell. Maybe he wants my wallet. But a kid who has a normal brain and normal brain chemistry who has a loving family and stability does not do this kind of thing. Is he challenged? Is he abused? Is he using? These are real problems that I am not going to add to by hitting him. If he's a sociopath then I'm not going to change his behavior by hitting him. Most of the cops I've met are very interested in why kids act out, and they make damn sure they find out why. I would call the cops so family services gets involved, and every aspect of this childs life and that of his parents are rigorously scrutinized. I don't want the cops to punch him back for me. I want them to help him.

The biggest reason that you don't hit kids is because you can. You can hit a kid. Most of them won't hit back, they won't question, they will accept it as your right as an adult. Why would you let them? Are you going to tell them that your right as an adult extends to having sex with them? There is no difference. Hell, it could be argued that at least sex is supposed to feel good, unlike a switch which is supposed to cause the maximum amount of pain with the least amount of damage.

Who do you trust to hit your kid? A teacher with a hidden rage problem? His best friend's secretly alcoholic mother? The guy at the convenience store? Why would you trust anyone to hit your kid? What if they hate your kid? What if they have absolutely no sense of proportion? What if they know nothing of the anatomy and start hitting your child on the spine and around the kidneys? Does a kid deserve to be paralyzed for a classroom infraction? does he deserve to piss blood for a few weeks? Does hitting kids even work?

It doesn't. Every study since the 60s says it doesn't work. So you aren't disciplining him. You're just hurting him. You are hurting a child to make yourself feel better, and to feel more in control of the situation. There's a word for that. Sadist.

[Errata]

Sorry CD... I'll stop. I just have a thing about this. Mea Culpa.

[Limehouse]

Limehouse, these people you talk of should obviously not be in a normal school where they will disrupt the other pupils' learning. They should be in a home for idiots. You are so concerned for these unmanageable kids. But what effect do you think they are having on their fellow pupils? Do you think they bully their fellow pupils? Obviously they do. So for the sake of your principles, there will be children who dread the thought of going to school and whose work suffers when they are at school. The health and safety of these pupils may even be jeopardised by the presence of these vicious kids. I'm sorry, but we cannot constantly round down everyone to the lowest level and we cannot constantly be going back to pick up stragglers.

Firstly, Robert, I do not have control over who is sent to my class. I have to accept that whoever is sent, is entitled to be there.

Secondly, I am concerned for ALL of my students. I am especially concerned for students whose learning is disrupted by others. Ideally, students who are disruptive are sent out of the room. Sometimes this is not possible. What does happen is that they have a disciplinary hearing with the curriculum manager and possibly the curriculum director or assistant principal.

We are VERY alert to bullying. We do not tolerate it. Bullying always results in exclusion and our students know this. I cannot hand on heart say that bullying never happens, but we are vigilant in dealing with it.

Numerous research studies show that beating people who are already violent themselves, or are displaying disturbed behaviour, does not address the problem. Beating someone for bad behaviour is punitive only - it does not change the behaviour - it only punishes the behaviour. Working with disturbed and disruptive students (and adults in mainstream society) on a variety of programmes, depending on their needs, is much more effective in achieving a turn around.