No limits to immigration

[Robert]

Well, Limehouse, if the curriculum wasn't changed to suit black boys, it's certainly a remarkable coincidence that they are now said to outperform white boys. Almost uncanny.

[Robert]

"If a society's culture is inundated and overthrown by an immigrant population, then so be it."

Oh, I guess we'll just have to accept it then.

[Limehouse]

Well, Limehouse, if the curriculum wasn't changed to suit black boys, it's certainly a remarkable coincidence that they are now said to outperform white boys. Almost uncanny.

Here is a news report:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/mar/27/schools.uk4

[Robert]

I see that most of the concern is about black pupils.

[Stephen Thomas]

I see that most of the concern is about black pupils.

I saw no sign of that in the article, Robert.

I'd say that primary school education should consist almost entirely of rote learning the disciplines of reading, writing and mathmatics instead of confusing small children with (to them) ununderstandable concepts of History and Geography and Sex Education and whatnot.

[Natalie Severn]

I saw no sign of that in the article, Robert.

I'd say that primary school education should consist almost entirely of rote learning the disciplines of reading, writing and mathmatics instead of confusing small children with (to them) ununderstandable concepts of History and Geography and Sex Education and whatnot.

Quoting directly from the article:
"However there are still questions about why in particular Black Caribbean and Black African boys from high socio-economically classified homes underachieve relative to their white British peers, despite the high aspirations of the pupils and parents, their positive attitudes to school and high frequency of undertaking homework.

Chris Keates, general secretary of the National Association of Schoolmasters Union of Women Teachers, said the under-achievement of black pupils was a worry.


So Stephen, I think Robert is correct here.I too noted that they say that when the two sets of pupils came from similar high socio-economic homes,the black pupils underachieve relative to their white peers.

In my view this is due to the institutional racism that still pervades our school system.

[Robert]

Hi Stephen

After the details about white students, the first note of worry is soiunded by Chris Keates - and it's about black under-achievers. Later on, there is more concern expressed, again about black pupils : having got the poorer black students ahead of the poorer whites, they're now worried that the richer black students are still behind the richer whites. Stand by for another rearrangement of the curriculum and a miraculous transformation in the fortunes of richer black students in the next ten years.

As for the poorer white students : there's no quick fix. But then, I didn't think there would be.

[Limehouse]

Hi Stephen

After the details about white students, the first note of worry is soiunded by Chris Keates - and it's about black under-achievers. Later on, there is more concern expressed, again about black pupils : having got the poorer black students ahead of the poorer whites, they're now worried that the richer black students are still behind the richer whites. Stand by for another rearrangement of the curriculum and a miraculous transformation in the fortunes of richer black students in the next ten years.

As for the poorer white students : there's no quick fix. But then, I didn't think there would be.

Well - the article says:

White poor youngsters also did the least amount of homework, he said.

So - more homework would be a good start.

[Natalie Severn]

I am well aware of the fate of large numbers of white pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds and the alarming rate of failure in our school system.These children start school with the dice stacked against them .There is often very little acknowledgement by teachers of the vast mismatch that often exists between their home culture and that of the school and their teachers. Such children usually come from a totally different world.
On the other hand, a child from a white ,high socio -economic group usually feels far more familiar and comfortable in their learning situation and therefore with most of their teacher's aspirations and academic expectations .The opposite is the case with many pupils from economically deprived families , black or white.
The 'match' with a white teacher's culture and background may not be quite so good for black pupils from high socio economic groups as it will be for white puplis.In the case of the latter they 'speak the same language' [that language may be quite elitist too]

btw I think the term 'white working class' may be a bit dated now...after all some at least of these children come from homes where nobody has a job---not mum or dad.Sometimes dad may even be on remand or has done a bunk etc.

[Robert]

I don't somehow think the teachers will have the time to get the white ones to do more homework - they'll be too busy sorting out the richer black under-achievers. First things first.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Robert,
In the last school I taught in the brightest boy in the class was an 11 year old West Indian boy.I'll call him A.He had an IQ of 148 [on an American test this would be 15 points higher something like 163].
He was an underachiever par excellence!Could barely construct a decent sentence and only read what he wanted to read.Nobody knew how to help this boy.His mum and aunt were bible thumpers [and actually extremely keen on him doing his homework, he was punished quite severely when he didn't do it].Dad had disappeared never to be seen again.But the way A's mind worked was a joy to behold and nobody was able to keep up with him.Give him a game of chess,give him a card game ...it was thrilling to see.
But you could not get through to A.He resisted all 'enculturation.'He was happy to teach me computer skills at which he was an 'expert'---just so long as he was 'in charge' that is.Turn the tables and he slipped under the net.Hope he is ok now.He will be about 20 .
Its a lot more complicated than it seems ---why children fail to achieve in our schools.

[Robert]

Psychology, Nats. In my school the English master told a boy that he had no chance of passing the English exam. He told him this so often, and in such scathing terms, that in the end the boy passed it just to spite the teacher.

On another occasion a boy came in laughing his head off. A teacher had told him to "get your hair cut, you scruffy Arab." The joke was that the boy was Jewish. I suppose nowadays that would cost that teacher his job. There would be hysterical knicker-wetting from the liberals, and the holy word "Unacceptable" would doubtless be parroted.

[Errata]

.
Its a lot more complicated than it seems ---why children fail to achieve in our schools.

You know they still haven't been able to create a colorblind IQ test? I mean it's better than the one's from the 40's, but still... they can't do it. Culture influences far too many of our perceptions and priorities.

And the MMPI is BRUTAL on people from other cultures. The entire test is based on the idea that the answers Minnesota farmers gave in like, 1911 is the literal blueprint of normal. I don't hate the holiday season because I'm mentally ill, I hate the holiday season because the music sucks and I feel left out for not celebrating it.

There have also been some interesting studies here indicating that cultural priorities can affect how the brain works. African Americans are much more likely to learn by hearing than by seeing. Southern whites have a big tendency towards visual learning. People who come from a household where someone is handicapped tend to be tactile learners. I am completely aurally driven, and when I had teacher who were just silently writing things on the board I would fail the class.

Only teaching white subject matter should have been thrown over long ago just for the fact that its dead boring. But teaching style may have to get overhauled as well.

[Errata]

"If a society's culture is inundated and overthrown by an immigrant population, then so be it."

Oh, I guess we'll just have to accept it then.

Well, you don't have to. I would say don't fear the change. You guys have been through it before, and it turned out alright.

Speaking of which, when did your family immigrate? I'm trying to gauge at what point people get culturally competitive. I don't, but my family has only been here about 100 years.

[Limehouse]

I don't somehow think the teachers will have the time to get the white ones to do more homework - they'll be too busy sorting out the richer black under-achievers. First things first.

It's the parents' and carers' responsibility to ensure children do their homework. Unfortuantely - as Norma has pointed out - many white working class children are at a considerable disadvantage before they even step in the classroom and the example I gave of a parent's attitude is one of the reasons why.

I have a vast range of nationalities in most of my classes and I am able to meet the needs of them all. I check the learning throughout the lesson and I provide a glossary of words and straightforward definitions that we will be using during that class. I use visual and audio and tactile resources (as described by Errata) and we often have a lot of fun.

Norma has described a common scenario - a child with a high IQ but poor achievement. Students can be clever but completely unaware they have any intellectual skills at all. I have a girl in one of my classes who is very bright indeed. She comes from a difficult background where nobody works and 'going away' (being imprisoned) is common. Because of poor behaviour she has been out of school since the age of 12. Prior to that she was rarely in school because mum wanted her company at home or required her to care for siblings or whatever. 'X' has poor literacy skills despite her intelligence but she is making very fast progress BECAUSE of her intelligence. That provides her with a sense of achievement and improves her behaviour. When she 'kicks off' I take her outside and get to the bottom of the problem and she returns to the class smiling.

What I am describing here is the situation where ALL students need something to help them achieve. The ones with English as a second language might need a bit more help with that but they are willing to put in the effort. Another child who is - to use Bob's phrase - 'indigenous' might need help with behaviour and they get that help provided they are willing to co-operate in the process.