No limits to immigration

[Bob Hinton]

And again

Mother battered to death with a fire extinguisher by jealous partner who had hated her looking at men on Facebook
A man battered his girlfriend to death with a fire extinguisher after telling her not to look at other men on Facebook.
Houssam Djemaa, 23, killed his 34 year-old partner Jacqueline Barrett in a frenzied attack.
He then sold her TV and Nintendo Wii for cash to make a run for it, but a few hours later changed his mind and handed himself in to police.
Djemma, who claimed he lost control after Ms Barrett racially insulted him, has now been handed a life sentence - and must serve a minimum 15 years.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1PAFxmvK5
Another immigrant with a criminal record murders another innocent victim.

[Bob Hinton]

Greetings.

there are already rules in place which mean those with criminal convictions can be refused entry to the UK.

https://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN04971.pdf

So where do you get this idea that we welcome foreign criminals with open arms?

I don't know really, perhaps it's because there are so many of them in Britain. Read the stories I have been posting. The chap who battered that man to death was already convicted of pushing a glass into his girlfriends face in Germany. He came here illegally and when discovered was not immediately deported. He then committed a string of violent offences and after each prison term appealed the deportation order and so was allowed to stay in Britain committing more crimes finally culminating in murder.

[babybird67]

I don't know really, perhaps it's because there are so many of them in Britain. Read the stories I have been posting. The chap who battered that man to death was already convicted of pushing a glass into his girlfriends face in Germany. He came here illegally and when discovered was not immediately deported. He then committed a string of violent offences and after each prison term appealed the deportation order and so was allowed to stay in Britain committing more crimes finally culminating in murder.

My emphasis.

Exactly. Illegally. What do you expect anyone to do about someone who nobody officially knows is here?

Why are you using specific cases all the time? Nobody is denying SOME immigrants commit crimes. Some of the indiginous population commit crimes too. It doesn't mean all immigration should be curtailed because of some bad apples, especially when they are here illegally in the first place.

Anecdotal evidence is not good enough, I'm afraid. Nobody in favour of immigration is in favour of crime, and to keep conflating the two shows an ignorance on your part I'm afraid.

[Bob Hinton]

Oh really...

My emphasis.

Exactly. Illegally. What do you expect anyone to do about someone who nobody officially knows is here?

Why are you using specific cases all the time? Nobody is denying SOME immigrants commit crimes. Some of the indiginous population commit crimes too. It doesn't mean all immigration should be curtailed because of some bad apples, especially when they are here illegally in the first place.

Anecdotal evidence is not good enough, I'm afraid. Nobody in favour of immigration is in favour of crime, and to keep conflating the two shows an ignorance on your part I'm afraid.

I'm sorry it is you who is showing your ignorance by failing to read what I have written. I say again I am against immigrants with CRIMINAL RECORDS being allowed entrance into this country. Do you understand now? Not all immigrants just those with criminal records - criminals.

Again your comment about no body knowing they are here is another point in case. We do know they are here illegally but don't do anything about it, the Sikh who murdered that man was sent to prison here on several occasions so obviously we knew he was here, but when he was released we let him stay to commit more crimes and eventually murder someone.

[Bob Hinton]

Greetings.

Now I did promise to post some information I got from an old service friend of mine. This man has served his country faithfully since 1965 when he joined the Armed Forces. He then joined the fraud squad and finally the Borders agency. He recently retired due to ill health.

Now as much as the LWL would like he is not a racist or a bigot just an ordinary bloke who has been there and done that. He has real experience of what is going on, and you would all do well to listen to what he is saying. Of course I don’t expect Little Tom Tom or other LWL to believe him, but there.

I asked him about his time in the Fraud Squad and this is what he told me. Most of the major frauds now are coming from abroad. They really started to take off in the late 70’s and early 80’s and are still very active today. He also mentioned the biggest case he had ever worked on a fraud involving millions of pounds. It turned into the biggest and most expensive trial in Bristol. The man behind the scheme having served his sentence has started up all over again. All the men involved came from abroad, Germany and Italy mainly.

As for immigration he explains that it is totally out of control and the border agency is continuously swamped. He explained that catching the illegal’s was not so hard, the problem was after you had caught them you had to let them go again so they could make endless appeals, this could drag on for years and years. Another scam is for illegal’s to claim they are under 18, this means they are not allowed to be fingerprinted. Because of this they find it very easy to travel from city to city putting in spurious claims for benefits and claiming them from each city. This rang a bell as we had a similar case in Carmarthen recently. An illegal claimed he was 16 years old and fled Pakistan because his family had been killed and he was in danger. It turned out he was 19, his father was in London making a very nice living and his middle class family were doing very well in Pakistan. They didn’t want to pay for his education though so they sent him here.

The record for false claiming that he has personally been involved with is eleven different cities each paying full benefits to one illegal. Eventually of course they can no longer claim to be under 18 and are deported. What they do then is to burn their fingerprints off with acid, claim they were injured in an industrial accident and start all over again.

I asked about immigrants who come over here to work. Yes of course they do but there are tens of thousands who do this illegally. The buy false National Insurance numbers and find employment with their own community. Practically all of their money leaves the country. He once found a National Insurance number belonging to a man in North Wales being used by 16 different people. What you must understand he said was that illegal immigration is big business. The illegal’s don’t just buy a passage to Britain they are equipped with survival kits, manuals explaining how to claim benefits, how to claim racism if stopped by anyone in authority and so on. They are also given the contact details of solicitors who will represent them in any court case, charging the taxpayer of course.

The other problem was the ethnic cleansing of British cities. Bristol has a Somalian population of about 30,000. They live together in one group and make their areas no go areas for whites. A lot of the men are involved in prostitution and drug dealing and basically defy the authorities to do anything about them – which of course they don’t. He also mentioned that several cities have now been practically cleansed of the indigenous population with immigrants outnumbering everyone else. This of course causes problems for schools where you now have a lot of them trying to teach where English is a minority language. Hospitals are held to ransom when certain religious groups refuse male doctors permission to examine females. Teaching staff are threatened with violence if they don’t conform. Just recently a teacher was brutally assaulted by three Muslim men who smashed a building block over his head, beat him with an iron bar and slashed his face with a knife. His ‘crime’? He was an RE teacher and they didn’t like it.

All in all a very depressing, gloomy picture of what this country has become.

What infuriates me personally is that there are so many people who want to come to this country just to work hard and give a better life to their families. These are the people we should welcome, the problem is if we don’t do something to clear up the awful mess we are in the I fear they will all be tarred with the same brush.

[TomTomKent]

Mind you he loves statistics, look at the way he dismisses the rise in immigration. What he fails to mention is if it continues at this rate in about forty years there will be no indigenous population left - just immigrants.
.

So Logical fallacy fans, did we see which flaw of thinking this represents?
The Unnatainable IF!

Let's look at the comment in two stages:
1) If immigration continues at this rate for 40 years.
2)There will be no indigenous population left.

Let's tackle the second part first: New people entering the country does not diminish the number of people already there. Let's assume Bob is not being outright racist, and does know that the indigenous population includes people of varying colours and races who have the right to be called British. Is it possibnle that any number of immigrants will somehow remove the Indigenous population? Well, no. When an immigrant enters the country, we don't see anybody dissapearing in a cloud of smoke. Even if there was a remote possibility of overcrowding, it would not mean "There will be no indigenous population left".

Strictly speaking, there will be more. The UK population grows constantly anyway, and when these newcomers have children, a proportion of these will be British. Indigenous UK Citizens. And that is ignoring the "One direction door" of the statement, and other flaws in the statistics. Already the statement is null and void. Unless somebody can explain where exactly the "indigenous population" is going to go?

But no, let's look at the first part of the statement. The "Impossible If". By "continuing at this rate" we have to assume that Bob meant that if the rate of immigration continued to grow by varying amounts each year depending on country. So the number of Slavakians entering the country will grow by 500% (five fold) each year. So 49,000 the first year, 245,000 the next and so forth. With this model, "if" it continued at this rate, then certainly with in four decades immigrants would outnumber UK citizens in the UK.

Unfortunately it is an "if" than can not possibly happen. Because with in three years the number entering the country per year is 6,125,000 immigrants from a country with a population of 5,518,156. In seven years 3.8 Billion people would be emmigrating from Slovakia: Half of the worlds population. The next year we would recieve more immigrants from slovakia alone than there are people on earth.

But what if he meant a constant stream of 49,000 from slovakia, and all other nations entering the country at a constant stream? With the figures Bob posted accounting for around 1% of the current population of the UK being immigrants from the countries listed, then in four decades they will be equivalent to 40%. Or will they? Again, that is the oversimplified figure, ignoring births, deaths, naturalisation, and outward migration from the UK. As one of my earlier posts pointed out the figures seem to take anybody who came to the country for more than a set period as a migrant, including seasonal workers, and those here with the intention of going home with in a set number of years (exactly as our own builders did in Germany in the 80's for example). The relative proportion of migrants will increase, but that is a long way from "there wont be any" UK citizens left.

Of course, the emmigration and immigration rate does not remain constant. It is a fluxuating figure with upwards and downwards trends, loosely tied through a number of complex factors to the world population. It may well continue to grow, and the relative proportion of Immigrants in the UK is likely to climb, but we are looking at single digits, not forty percent. Remember the unprecedented amnesties are around 1%, and the indigenous population grows at a healthy rate.

[babybird67]

I'm sorry it is you who is showing your ignorance by failing to read what I have written. I say again I am against immigrants with CRIMINAL RECORDS being allowed entrance into this country. Do you understand now? Not all immigrants just those with criminal records - criminals.

Again your comment about no body knowing they are here is another point in case. We do know they are here illegally but don't do anything about it, the Sikh who murdered that man was sent to prison here on several occasions so obviously we knew he was here, but when he was released we let him stay to commit more crimes and eventually murder someone.

Well what a surprise Bob, you're against criminals. So am I. The only difference being i don't discriminate between criminals of one naitonality and another therefore I don't have to concentrate on crime to the exclusion of all other related topics on a thread that is about IMMIGRATION, not CRIME.

As many have pointed out to you, and I have posted evidence of myself, there remain measures in place to prevent people entering the country if the authorities believe this to be in our country's interest. Therefore stop ranting as if the doors are wide open for the Slovakian mafia to invade and corrupt the whole of the UK.

There are individual cases where mistakes have been made. That doesn't mean immigration is a bad thing. And it is ignorant to scare-monger with individual tales of one or two immigrants who have murdered people when the vast majority of murderers and criminals per se are UK nationals. There is no statistical truth to a claim either that the country is over run by immigrants, or that the majority of immigrants have criminal tendencies.

And thank you Tom for being the voice of sanity here. Excellent post about the logical fallacy in Bob's 'reasoning'.

[TomTomKent]

Now I did promise to post some information I got from an old service friend of mine. This man has served his country faithfully since 1965 when he joined the Armed Forces. He then joined the fraud squad and finally the Borders agency. He recently retired due to ill health.

Now as much as the LWL would like he is not a racist or a bigot just an ordinary bloke who has been there and done that. He has real experience of what is going on, and you would all do well to listen to what he is saying. Of course I don’t expect Little Tom Tom or other LWL to believe him, but there.

Nope, as pointed out before annectdotal evidence is subjective, and not representive of the over all figures. It has also been filtered through your own perception. We can not attest how much spin you put on it Bob, as you are the one typing this, not him.

I asked him about his time in the Fraud Squad and this is what he told me. Most of the major frauds now are coming from abroad. They really started to take off in the late 70’s and early 80’s and are still very active today. He also mentioned the biggest case he had ever worked on a fraud involving millions of pounds. It turned into the biggest and most expensive trial in Bristol. The man behind the scheme having served his sentence has started up all over again. All the men involved came from abroad, Germany and Italy mainly.
And amazingly british people can commit crimes too. Shocking I know. But how is this meant to reflect on the majority of immigrants? And if it isn't meant to, why bother telling us?

As for immigration he explains that it is totally out of control and the border agency is continuously swamped. He explained that catching the illegal’s was not so hard, the problem was after you had caught them you had to let them go again so they could make endless appeals So there is an appeals process? They are allowed access to the full judicial process? Guess you were wrong about that Bob., this could drag on for years and years. Another scam is for illegal’s to claim they are under 18, this means they are not allowed to be fingerprinted. Because of this they find it very easy to travel from city to city putting in spurious claims for benefits and claiming them from each city. This rang a bell as we had a similar case in Carmarthen recently. An illegal claimed he was 16 years old and fled Pakistan because his family had been killed and he was in danger. It turned out he was 19, his father was in London making a very nice living and his middle class family were doing very well in Pakistan. They didn’t want to pay for his education though so they sent him here.
Again, is it intentional to write this in such a way as to imply "they" and "immigrants" means ALL immigrants? Or are you about to regail us with annectdotes of the vast majority who do not commit crimes?
The record for false claiming that he has personally been involved with is eleven different cities each paying full benefits to one illegal. Eventually of course they can no longer claim to be under 18 and are deported. What they do then is to burn their fingerprints off with acid, claim they were injured in an industrial accident and start all over again.

I asked about immigrants who come over here to work. Yes of course they do but there are tens of thousands who do this illegallyWhich is no reflection on the hundreds of thousands who do not enter illegally. So even when you say "of course they do", you are only willing to talk about those who are infact criminals comitting a crime? Well done.. They buy false National Insurance numbers and find employment with their own community Again, is this meant to sound like you mean ALL immigrants who come here to work? I am assuming you mean the minority who are already here illegally, and as "Tens of thousands" make up less than 10% of the total miggrant workforce.. Practically all of their money leaves the country. He once found a National Insurance number belonging to a man in North Wales being used by 16 different people. What you must understand he said was that illegal immigration is big business. The illegal’s don’t just buy a passage to Britain they are equipped with survival kits, manuals explaining how to claim benefits, how to claim racism if stopped by anyone in authority and so on Amazingly, there is a difference between having the right to claim and having the claim accepted.. They are also given the contact details of solicitors who will represent them in any court case As is the legal right of anybody in the country, charging the taxpayer of course to the limits of Legal Aid. Just like anybody else. By the way, if the cases roll on for all those months and years you mentioned before, the legal aid will not. .

The other problem was the ethnic cleansing of British cities When exactly did the Pogrom occur? Perhaps I missed the citizens being rounded up to be taken to the killing fields. Or perhaps "ethnic cleansing" is not what you meant.. Bristol has a Somalian population of about 30,000. They live together in one group So a multicultural society is Ethnic cleansing? and make their areas no go areas for whitesApparently. Then again I have heard the same claims made about just about any council estate.. A lot of the men are involved in prostitution and drug dealing and basically defy the authorities to do anything about them – which of course they don’t. He also mentioned that several cities have now been practically cleansed of the indigenous population with immigrants outnumbering everyone else And an easy "fact" to check with the census. Come on Bob! Name a city, and tell us when this "cleansing" began. And by whom? I still don't remember the Pogroms myself.... This of course causes problems for schools where you now have a lot of them trying to teach where English is a minority language. Hospitals are held to ransom when certain religious groups refuse male doctors permission to examine females which of course is not the soul claim of immigrants. There are a lot of traditional Muslims and other religious groups with british members who make the same refusal.. Teaching staff are threatened with violence if they don’t conform again, it is by no means only foreign citizens who threaten teachers, and it would be naive to try and claim it was. Just recently a teacher was brutally assaulted by three Muslim men who smashed a building block over his head, beat him with an iron bar and slashed his face with a knife a tragedy, but by no means unique, or unique to immigrants. Nor representive of immigrants as a whole.. His ‘crime’? He was an RE teacher and they didn’t like it.

All in all a very depressing, gloomy picture of what this country has become.

What infuriates me personally is that there are so many people who want to come to this country just to work hard and give a better life to their families. These are the people we should welcome, the problem is if we don’t do something to clear up the awful mess we are in the I fear they will all be tarred with the same brushThen perhaps you should reconsider some of the phrasing you have used, and the context of the news reports you have been posting, because you have been giving entirely that impression, and belittled those who pointed out that you were giving that impression. Everytime somebody points out you were implying exactly that you could have said "sorry that was a poor way of phrasing" or "quite right taken out of context these Mail and Express links could give that impression, which I do not want to do," instead of calling people "little man" and "setting lines"..

My comments in bold, for ease of reading and response.

[EddieX]

Should we have limits on immigration? Yes, of course.
Do we have limits on immigration? Yes, of course.
Should these be enforced? Yes, of course.
Are they being enforced? Probably not to the degree most of us would like.

Can't see what the argument on the thread is about.

[TomTomKent]

I'm sorry it is you who is showing your ignorance by failing to read what I have written. I say again I am against immigrants with CRIMINAL RECORDS being allowed entrance into this country. Do you understand now? Not all immigrants just those with criminal records - criminals.

Well, you talk about them not being allowed into the country. They aren't. That is the whole point of many the cases you post being illegal immigrants. They are illegal precisely because they are not allowed.

I think what you meant to say BabyBird "was I agree", instead of adopting the patronising "do you understand yet" tone. Yes. She understood, and she commented on what appears to be flaw in your comments.

[Derrick]

My comments in bold, for ease of reading and response.

Hi TTK

Just making a friendly point and nothing else.

You shouldn't have put your own writing in a quote from someone else. It can easily be misconstrued by someone just having a cursory look.

BTW I agree with what you are saying but say it yourself in your own space...not Bob Hinton's or anyone else's.

You will have to break down his post into bite sized pieces by copying and pasting the quote headers and footers and adding your point after each.

Going by Hinton's daft statistics I can just imagine that no one will want to come to the UK in 5 years anyway when half of the worlds population already live here.

regards
Derrick

[DrHopper]

Let's assume Bob is not being outright racist, and does know that the indigenous population includes people of varying colours and races who have the right to be called British.

Whilst I am, to a certain extent, bridging the gap between you and Bob, TomTomKent, understanding elements of both of your arguments... and actually enjoying the debate also, on this point I have to point out that at no time has race or colour been an issue with Bob. This is not about race, colour or creed, religion, or the way certain people wear their hair - this is about immigration, that is, people who were born in another country coming to live in the UK.

It is both unfair, untrue and unhelpful to conflate the issue of immigration with the issue of racism, and it serves only to obfuscate the issue and cheapen the term 'racist'. The slinging of that word and the fear of being labelled as such has led to the situation we are debating here - if we cannot have an open and honest discussion of immigration, then the 'problem', for such it is, will never be properly addressed.

[babybird67]

Dr Hopper

They live together in one group and make their areas no go areas for whites. .

My emphasis.

Are you sure about that?

[babybird67]

It is both unfair, untrue and unhelpful to conflate the issue of immigration with the issue of racism, and it serves only to obfuscate the issue and cheapen the term 'racist'.

It is also unfair, untrue and unhelpful to conflate the issue of immigration with that of crime, when there is no evidence immigrants are more likely to have criminal tendencies than non-immigrants...in fact evidence of the opposite.

[Derrick]

I'm sorry it is you who is showing your ignorance by failing to read what I have written. I say again I am against immigrants with CRIMINAL RECORDS being allowed entrance into this country. Do you understand now? Not all immigrants just those with criminal records - criminals.

No Bob, it is you who are showing your ignorance along with your insufferable bigotry.

We have all read what you have written and you call yourself a historian. Frankly I wouldn't believe a word of anything you say or write, if this is the way you go about presenting your ideas.

I don't give a monkeys chuff what you think about me pal but everyone else here, for sure, thinks that you are a very sad, misguided, right wing, bigoted cretin.

You may have had a certain talent for research in the past but you are pissing away your credit here old son.

You say that you have seen more of the world than most of us have had hot dinners but you didn't really get it did you?

This world is made up of individuals, each with his/her own view. Your cut is 7 billion against I'm afraid just like the rest of us in the end. The trick Bob, is not to build walls but connections as I see it.

Just trying to help

regards
Derrick