Osama Bin Laden DEAD- Killed By U.S. Forces

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Zodiac,
great to see your posts---!
Nx

[Zodiac]

Hi Zodiac,
great to see your posts---!
Nx

Hi Nats,

Thanks as always! Sorry that I haven't been posting much of late but you know how sometimes life has a way of leaving you with neither the time nor the energy for the things that you would like to do!!! Anyhow I'm here now!!! Hope that you and yours are well,

Best wishes
Zodiac.

[jason_c]

i think You are very mistaken here.The Soviet Union was a super power created in less than thirty years--ie from 1917 to 1950 which had altered the face of Russia entirely from being a backward feudal/peasant society of extreme poverty and illiteracy and high infant mortality to one which provided its people with gas,electricity,cheap-if basic -accomodation, a system of package schooling similar to adopted in the West in the 80"s ,literacy,health care, theatre ,ballet , sports literature poetry to rival any in the Western democracies.
They even sent a man into space before America!
So don't pull that one.The problem was partly that the West ostracised Russia.Penalised her as it does Cuba in an effort to destroy her.
But none of that excuses the purges,the assasinations ordered by the paranoid Stalin, the tanks in Hungary etc etc
That was the tragedy.Not any failure economically.That came much later with Breshnev and co.

Sorry Natalie I have to disagree. The only reason they made such supposed strides was due to its totalitarian system. All was secondary to the state. Labour camps, no free speech, no free press, no right to vote, and a huge police state. It is these that made any economic gains possible. Note that when Stalin died and the USSR came more "liberal" these gains gradually came to a stop. Stalinist purges were a necessity for the whole system to survive. Its no coincidence you concentrate on the economy of the USSR until the 1950's. For a communist economic system to thrive freedoms have to be removed from the masses. It is this that confirms communism is against human nature rather than embraces it.

Are you really telling me with a straight face that "Soviet literature" was as good as that from the West? Most of its great literature was written under the shadow of death and imprisonment. If it were up to the Soviets most of this great literature would be destroyed never seeing the light of day. It survived despite of communism, not because of it.

edit; your description of cheap-if-basic accomodation is strange. This type of Soviet accomodation would cause a political scandal in most of the Western world if it existed to the same extent over here.

[Limehouse]

Julie

I think it inspires you as communist emancipation has been a complete failure in wealth creation. Its not as if this "emancipation" has a rich history of delivering goods and services to its citizens. You are looking for past excuses to confirm your current thinking. Its proof that failed communist ideals lead to all sorts of mumbo jumbo. Herein lies its problems. The communist theory is so against human nature it invariably ends in failure when practiced. Nowadays its even a failure in theory.


The above is meant as a criticism of totalitarian communism rather than western democratic social justice.

Jason - I am not a communist. Not even close. I am a socialist.

The quote from Jeremy Seabrook inspire me because it implies that freedom is something way beyond material wealth. It is freedom from the bonds of consumption towards an appreciation and respect for everyones' contribution.

Paulo Freire was an educationalist in Brazil who was inspired to address the low levels of literacy among the workers he served. He believed that to achieve results the role of the teacher had to be equal to that of the learner and each learner had to be valued for the contribution they could make to the learning process. He worked on this method and found that people learned very quickly because as they worked together - a group consciousness emerged and people found a voice with which they could use to organise themselves and achieve greater equality. That is emancipation.

Concerning the deliverence of good and services under communism - I believe Natalie has addressed this very well already - but I would add that Cubans are much better educated than many Americans (and Britains) and their health care is also superior - although I admit the infrastructure - buildings etc - are not so good.

Likewise - in Venezuela the ordinary people enjoy a much better standard of living in terms of education and healthcare and the sharing of common wealth (profits from oil sales) than they did under the previous administration.

[Bob Hinton]

Really?

i think You are very mistaken here.The Soviet Union was a super power created in less than thirty years--ie from 1917 to 1950 which had altered the face of Russia entirely from being a backward feudal/peasant society of extreme poverty and illiteracy and high infant mortality to one which provided its people with gas,electricity,cheap-if basic -accomodation, a system of package schooling similar to adopted in the West in the 80"s ,literacy,health care, theatre ,ballet , sports literature poetry to rival any in the Western democracies.
They even sent a man into space before America!
So don't pull that one.The problem was partly that the West ostracised Russia.Penalised her as it does Cuba in an effort to destroy her.
.

Natalie, I think it’s you who are mistaken here. Soviet Russia from 1917 to 1950 was not a nice place to be. It was only a super power because it had nuclear weapons –which they stole from the USA. They did not achieve any of the advances that the rest of the world did, they made no basic machinery like cars, washing machines etc – well at least machinery that was a patch on what the West was producing. (How do you double the value of a Lada – fill it with petrol).

Even if we overlook the millions killed during the revolution we cannot overlook the 10 million who died in the famine of 1921 and a further 8 million who died in the famine of 1932. Most of these famines were caused by the ridiculous ‘five year plans’ that the Communists kept coming up with.
Visitors during this ‘golden age’ were treated to trips through towns constructed like a Hollywood film set, with the disease, death and hunger hidden behind cut outs of buildings.

You must also take in to account the millions who died of hunger and torture in the gulags. As for their advances in science – They even sent a man into space before America- this was achieved through the work of German scientists ( Much like the Americans!) who were kidnapped after World War II and not released after the war.

As for the West ostracising the USSR, it wasn’t the west who built thousands of miles of concrete, steel and landmines to separate the two spheres.

I was in parts of the old USSR not long after the wall came down and could see the type of life they had-believe me it was not pleasant!

[Limehouse]

Limehouse

A few quick responses to your very touching post:

Look at it this way. Imagine you are going to establish a community in which everyone is going to be equal. It is agreed that everyone will wear the same type of clothes (like Startrek - kind of all-in-one jump suits) and everyone will have two suits - one in the wash and one on their backs. Everyone will be equal because everyone will have the same amount of clothes. Now - my husband is six feet four inches tall and I am five feet one inch. In order for us both to have two suits - Eddie will need more material. If he is given the same amount of material as me - he will not have two suits and will not be equal. So you see in order to achieve equality of opportunity - some people need more resources or they cannot achieve equality.

I find that absolutely ghastly - a grey, sterile, bleak anathaema. It assumes somewhere at the back of its workings, Stalinist bureaucrats working out (rather like 1940s rationing) what X or Y is entitled to. Sorry - I am entitled to work, earn and keep and make my own decisions (within reason). I don't
Phil (probably still Scrooge in your eyes )

Hi Phil

I will probably reply to your other comments in your post a bit later but just wanted to reassure you that the above description is only an analogy of how equality needs to work. I am in no way advocating a 1984 type society. Of course I wouildn't impose a dress code - I am just demonstrating how some people need more resources (ie matyerial analogy) in order to acheve equality.

Have a good day!

Julie

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Bob and Jason,
I hope to reply later but as I am very busy at present may not have time to do so at length .Yes Stalinism with its purges ,its assassinations ,its tanks and its stifling bureaucracy continuing through to Brezhnevite corruption, would have been an anathema to Marx. I totally agree about the importance of a free press and freedom of speech although to suggest that all literature was banned under Stalin is wrong.None of the classics of Russian Literature were banned in Stalin's Russia.Pushkin,Gogol ,Turgenev,Chekhov,Tolstoy and Dostoevsky were available everywhere.But in most cases the post revolutionary poets and writers were either savagely repressed or committed suicide,or died in camps,a few ofcourse just remained silent.
Culturally other artists such as ballet and opera ,theatre and film stars and producers such as the genius Eisenstein ,made headway and in sports and athletics there were advances .Education too was a proirty.Russia actually became electrified under Stalin.
And this about cars Bob,the Skoda was a good little car -don't know about the Lada[!]---I had a Skoda though and it never went wrong - it rusted before it gave out mechanically.
It mustn't be forgotten either that a reform programme was begun by Gorbachev ---which led directly to the overthrow of the old Soviet Union.
And how are we all doing now we have got rid of the bogey man?
Western capitalism is in crisis actually.Globalisation has so far proved to be no match for the anarchic boom and bust and paper gambling of our stock exchange.So what to do?
The 'free market' in practice means reduced taxes for the rich,reduced public spending for the poor,a virtual abandoning of the role of the state in determining the economy and the privatization of virtually everything.
And have a think about this:
'Western style welfare capitalism is better than Eastern communism,but Western style welfare capitalism only existed because of communism'
So where do we go now?

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Julie,
Yes Paulo Freire--a great hero of mine too Julie,
Cheers,
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Zodiac,
will look out for your posts---yes,that how it goes!
Nx

[Phil H]

When I was a student (early 70s) there was a Russian novel that was very popular, called “And Quiet Flows the Don” written by Michail Shokolov. I had a p/back copy and recall that the work was challenged on grounds of plagiarism. Since then the novel appears to have disappeared from view, at least in the UK (though someone on Casebook will probably tell me it is still a huge best-seller!).

I recall the novel as being a sort of panegyric for Stalin’s Russia – hence, I assume, the challenge on authorship from Solzenhitsyn and others. Was this a case of the Soviet authorities seeking to sponsor rather than censor or destroy works of literature?

[Phil H]

Western capitalism is in crisis actually.

Is it, really? There are cycles in these things, but I don't seean overall crisis.

Globalisation has so far proved to be no match for the anarchic boom and bust and paper gambling of our stock exchange.

But globalisation and new technology, the sheer speed of change, will be a challenge for all systems - economic and political.

The 'free market' in practice means reduced taxes for the rich,reduced public spending for the poor,a virtual abandoning of the role of the state in determining the economy and the privatization of virtually everything.

That's a VERY biased definition. The attempts at socialism in the UKk have not proved very successful have they? - Government is simply NOT very good (that is efficient, effective or giving value for money) at running businesses etc. Private companies do it well. Further, the electorate surely have a choice at elections, at which one party usually has a higher spending programme. Voters chose - that is democracy?

'Western style welfare capitalism is better than Eastern communism,but Western style welfare capitalism only existed because of communism'

Utter nonsense, western culture is suffused with the "Christian" tradition and has always been charitable and had a social conscience. Capitalism emerged from the renaissence and reformation (i.e. C16th and C17th) the coffee houses of London, the Dutch burghers, etc etc.

Phil

[Natalie Severn]

Is it, really? There are cycles in these things, but I don't seean overall crisis

Well why not come out of your smug denials and pontifications and start reading about it. George Soros,one of your idols I would have thought, might help you out if you really want to learn a bit about the breakdown of the financial system and how the global economy had to be rescued from the brink of total breakdown.Why when Lehman Brothers were allowed to go into bankruptcy the entire financial system had to be put on artificial life support for goodness sake! This is no mere 'blip'---You don't see an "overall crisis'? What planet are you on?


I asked

'Western style welfare capitalism is better than Eastern communism,but Western style welfare capitalism only existed because of communism'
You answered:
Utter nonsense, western culture is suffused with the "Christian" tradition and has always been charitable and had a social conscience. Capitalism emerged from the renaissence and reformation (i.e. C16th and C17th) the coffee houses of London, the Dutch burghers, etc etc.

What sort of ignorant answer is this? Do you not really understand the question?

Regarding 'charity' and 'social conscience' ---ever read Piers Ploughman? Ever read Dickens about how the poor were allowed to starve in 'charitable and Christian 'England during and after the Industrial Revolution? Ever read BLake? Ever read Engels"s famous essays on the condition of the Working Class ? Ever even read the statistics Colin Roberts [septic blue] has provided, here, on this site, of the widespread poverty and deprivation in the East End of London and specifically on the abject poverty that existed in areas of Whitechapel? Charity my foot.Who are you anyway? Lord Bountiful?
IT was the struggle of the British Labour and Trade Union movement that improved the lot of working people and nobody else---the same working class men and women who provided the labour that generated wealth in the first place !


Read Soros.
and it wasn't 'laissez faire' that rescued the banks --no again-it was a massive injection of money by British taxpayers!
And make no mistake-the full impact has not yet been felt of the financial crisis.
I asked a serious question and as you either could not or chose not to answer with any kind of thoughtfulness or understanding of what I was actually asking , this is the very last time I will debate anything with you.
The truth is you don't know the answer do you?

[Bob Hinton]

Hi Bob and Jason,

And this about cars Bob,the Skoda was a good little car -don't know about the Lada[!]---I had a Skoda though and it never went wrong - it rusted before it gave out mechanically.

Quite possibly, I had a Skoda after they were taken over by Volkswagen, and they are superb cars - slight problem though the Skoda wasn't Russian it was Czech. If you've never driven a Lada you've never nearly died!

[Magpie]

Quite possibly, I had a Skoda after they were taken over by Volkswagen, and they are superb cars - slight problem though the Skoda wasn't Russian it was Czech. If you've never driven a Lada you've never nearly died!

My uncle had a Lada.

It's funny, when I went to the Russian exhibition at Earl's Court in the late 70's, the Ladas they had on display were beautiful. However my uncle's car was a little orange shoebox with zero heating and that sounded like a tank.

[Errata]

Quite possibly, I had a Skoda after they were taken over by Volkswagen, and they are superb cars - slight problem though the Skoda wasn't Russian it was Czech. If you've never driven a Lada you've never nearly died!

A guy I went to high school with drove an adorable orange Skoda that his mother was smuggled across to West Berlin in.

As for nearly dying, my second car was a Chevy Corsica and in the maintenance book it said if the engine light came on to pull over immediately and get as far away from the car as possible (!!!!). We called it the Mission: Impossimobile.