Osama Bin Laden DEAD- Killed By U.S. Forces

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Phil,
Lets be clear about one thing at least,I am not at all happy about the spread of fundamentalist anything whether it be religion ,ideology or politics and I think that the growth of these 'fundamentalisms' have struck a huge blow to human sympathy and understanding and the progress of civilisation---in fact I think they have set us back years and some of them fully intend to set us back even further by hundreds , if not a thousand years.
Freedom of speech and freedom of the press are essential to any thriving democracy .
Surely though the Arab spring was about these things-at least that was what I heard in the news I watched and read about.It was not a cry for fundamentalist religions to be set up all over the show but for the opposite in fact ;for freedom of expression , democracy and the right of people to elect their own governments hopefully free from corruption[ some chance-just looking at our own expense fiddlers of late]so the Egyptian revolution,for example, was surely a step in the right direction?---ofcourse whether it will prove to be two steps back in the future waits to be seen,
Thankyou anyway Phil for your thoughtful and interesting reply today.
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Concerning Cuba - I do not think you can put it in the same category as China and Russia. There have been no purges and it is generally an open society. i know several people who have visited Cuba - including my daughter - and they all describe very happy people. They are not wealthy and they often lack everyday essentials such as toothpaste but they have very good health care and one of the best education systems in the world.

I could say more but I am off the Coventry today so I have to sign off and may be come back later tonight or tomorrow.

Best wishes

Julie

I agree with your post completely Julie.Cuba in fact has one of the best,if not THE best, health systems in the world and many capitalist commentators have admitted it and been glad to use CUban doctors and medical help in times of disaster .

[Phil H]

Julie

I'm glad I can still horrify people - I was afraid I'd become staid, dull and boriing.

I'm sorry if my previous post came across more strongly that I intended. As I said earlier an intemperate "anger" came across rather than an "acid" irony. Misjudgement on my part for which I apologise. That said, it doesn't mean that I don't disagree strongly with many of the views I see expressed here.

My point about ordinary people doing their best, is simply that radical change can be very disruptive. In my view, (and it is only that) MOST people want stability and really don't like change.

I do sincerely think that that point is forgotten by many radicals. There is an old saying, "you cannot make an omletter without breaking eggs", but that is actually very callous if the eggs are people.

On the scroungers, I have seen a welfare state in the Uk produce a vast army of people who have been very content not to find work. Psychologically, on the "hand-up" comment - experience says that people do not value what they do not have to strive for - hence education is now taken for granted and many families do not support children at school, whereas before the war workers would often strive HARD to get their kids to grammar schools etc.

Talk to some Americans about "welfare" as I have, and I think you'll find my views "moderate". I respond to them as you respond to me!!

On Tony benn, I can only speak as I have heard since the 60s. If you extrapolate from the aspiration expressed, you find that the current "establishment" has to be removed from all involvement in the system because it and its menmbers would resist the change. Since those individuals are likely to be leaders and vocal, they either have to be excluded or removed... hardly democratic - but then many radicals aren't democrats are they? They believe in imposition.

The House of Lords has, in my view, done a very good job over the decades since 1911. I am a believer in political evolution not revolution and the Lords has adapted well to changing times. It is no threat to the Commons and has been an expert revising chamber. Under Thatcher it represented the only real opposition (pace Ken Livingston and the GLC).

Elect a House of Lords and I predict serious constitutional clashes within 20 years. Appoint it, and where is the difference between what we have and what we will get.

On Cuba, it sems to me that the welfare of the people has been held well back and that they would have become more prosperous more quickly under the non-Communist regime. If it's so great why do so many try to leave?

And how do you justify Castro clinging to power for so long? How is that a good thing? If so, why not have PMs for life here? or in the US. But such despotism seems to be the norm in Communist regimes!

Happy to discuss further on your return,

Phil

[jason_c]

I agree with your post completely Julie.Cuba in fact has one of the best,if not THE best, health systems in the world and many capitalist commentators have admitted it and been glad to use CUban doctors and medical help in times of disaster .

Cuba has far more political prisoners now than the U.S. had at the height of McCarthyism. And I wouldnt suggest you be a homosexual in Cuba either, you are your soon imprisoned or sent to a mental health facility.

And I dont believe in Cubas healthcare system for a second. I doubt any of these "capitalist commentators" have used it once, let alone regularly.

Improved literacy has been a success I admit.

[Joseph]

Viva Fidel and Raul !

[Phil H]

Surely though the Arab spring was about these things-at least that was what I heard in the news I watched and read about.It was not a cry for fundamentalist religions to be set up all over the show but for the opposite in fact ;for freedom of expression , democracy and the right of people to elect their own governments hopefully free from corruption[

I'm sure your analysis of what has happened to date is spot on, Norma. At least as far as the urban population is concerned (I'm less sure about the rural Egyptians, who in my contacts with them are much more conservative.

Some years ago, I planned a cruise down the Nile in Middle Egypt to visit some of the less frequented archaeological sites (like El Amarna). The trip had to be cancelled because fundamentalists shot at cruise ships (this was a year or so before the Luxor "massacre" of tourists as I recall). Mubarak clamped down to preserve the tourist trade which is so important to the economy.

I see a moment in the near future when the new democratic Government of Egypt will face a similar challenge from the Muslim Brotherhood and will have a choice - clamp down or take a less firm approach. If they do the latter, I can see the fundamentalists seizing their opportinity, creating instability and a weak Government falling, or the Army taking control.

None of the countries has a tradition of democracy, high levels of education etc, so I see the reforms being like the grain that fell on stony ground, not having much to take root in. In Syria (where I went to see Crusader castles and roman remains in stead of Egypt, Damascus is quite sophisticated, but the rural hinterland often backward and quite corrupt.

As far as our "expense" fidlers are concerned, my understanding has always been that, because MPs did not get pay rises fo some years for "political" presentational reasons, the the Government and the House authorities "encouraged" them to use the expenses system to "top up". Hence it was not so much a fiddle as a "work around" that the government of the day was too craven to admit to. Yes some MPs were probably greedy, even foolish (the duck house) but I have never seen it as warranting the outrage it gleaned. More akin (to my mind) to "old Spanish customs" around (say) overtime in a factory.

Phil

[Natalie Severn]

Cuba has far more political prisoners now than the U.S. had at the height of McCarthyism. And I wouldnt suggest you be a homosexual in Cuba either, you are your soon imprisoned or sent to a mental health facility.

And I dont believe in Cubas healthcare system for a second. I doubt any of these "capitalist commentators" have used it once, let alone regularly.

Improved literacy has been a success I admit.

I didn't say Cuba was perfect Jason, and I agree with you about the treatment and often imprisonment of homosexuals in Cuba which has been a total disgrace and breach of human rights.
But Castro has done his best,along with Raul and others, to survive on the borders of an extremely hostile America,and they have done a lot more than survive as Julie says.Not easy in terms of trade .
I can't quote statistics right now on how Cuba has sent its doctors to the major disaster regions like Haiti etc as I haven't time to look itup but I read about it and heard about it through several news channels and when I have time will check it out.http://www.medicc.org/ns/index.php?s=11&p=0 [an interesting site]

The world's leading male ballet star Carlos Costa is Cuban and has been interviewed several times and speaks enthusiatically about his country.
Now, lets have a look at a tiny area of Cuba under American Control shall we?
Guatanamo Bay.Here you have up to 600 prisoners at a time in cages without trial----a total disgrace in terms of human rights would you not agree Jason?

http://old.cageprisoners.com/articles.php?id=1036

[Phil H]

Guatanamo Bay.Here you have up to 600 prisoners at a time in cages without trial----a total disgrace in terms of human rights

No one would ever want such a thing to have to be done - but I wonder what people in the UK would have wanted/accepted if 3,000 plus people had been attacked on our mainland? I can well understand a response that argues that a degree of pain to a small number that might spare a much larger number is justified.

I suspect that those involved with US homeland security are scared stiff that there will a nuclear, chemical or biological attack on the mainland USA and will do all it can to prevent it.

But that has nothing to do with cuba - and of course the ballet dancer speaks well of the regime - he has done well out of it, and as in the old USSR, he might not be allowed to travel if he spoke out.

You have not addressed the question of why castro has clung to power for so long - why he does not trust his people enough to empower them or to step aside for a democratically elected leader. After some 50 years in power you would expect him to have prepared his people (education, encouragement, etc) to be able to elect their own leaders, and understand the issues. He hasn't - and won't!

I am also pretty sure that as leader he is not subject to any of the rigours, retrictions etc enforced on his people.

Phil

[Natalie Severn]

Surely though the Arab spring was about these things-at least that was what I heard in the news I watched and read about.It was not a cry for fundamentalist religions to be set up all over the show but for the opposite in fact ;for freedom of expression , democracy and the right of people to elect their own governments hopefully free from corruption[

I'm sure your analysis of what has happened to date is spot on, Norma. At least as far as the urban population is concerned (I'm less sure about the rural Egyptians, who in my contacts with them are much more conservative.

Some years ago, I planned a cruise down the Nile in Middle Egypt to visit some of the less frequented archaeological sites (like El Amarna). The trip had to be cancelled because fundamentalists shot at cruise ships (this was a year or so before the Luxor "massacre" of tourists as I recall). Mubarak clamped down to preserve the tourist trade which is so important to the economy.
Phil

Hi Phil,
I went on a Nile Cruise with my daughter in 2009 right down to Abu Simbel it was fantastic.But I was shocked at the total poverty of the rural areas most people had no furniture and sat outside open sided huts on chairs.If they were lucky they had a donkey but most didn't.If you are trying to tell me Cuba is worse than Egypt and would have done better under capitalism well Egypt had capitalism---the raw side of it so to speak---and by comparison Cuba is a haven in terms of health care and education ,entertainment for its people and the Cuban people do have enough to eat despite the punishing Western sanctions.
Even though we apparently sent many of our prisoners to Egypt to be tortured by Mubarak's men,---because its forbidden in England The foreign minister in Mubarak's government , Omar Suleiman, himself allegedly did some of the worst torturing btw,]Mubarak didn't share the money he obtained for such wee favours he pocketed the lot and became a multi millionaire.
No, Nasser,another dictator who we ofcourse detested because of Suez, is still revered by many of the poor in Egypt for the simple reason that they were becoming far better off for the first time in centuries.Nasser was a dictator but he was not corrupt in his personal life and he died penniless---he gave his money away actually.

[Phil H]

I am a great admirer of Nasser, in fact, and of Anwar Sadat. My professor (an ex-diplomat) had been in the embassy during the Suez crisis of 1956 and knew both men personally. Indeed, I think the professor's was the first European house Sadat ever visited.

I recall being very sad when Nasser died.

Mubarak I was always more ambivalent about, as I suspect he may have had a hand in/known in advance about Sadat's assasination. That said, Mubarak has been a reliable friend/ally to the west and to Israel.

You mention poverty in Egypt, I finally went in the late 90s in the aftermath of the Luxor massacre. Tourism had fallen off sharply and I was told about one couple who had been laid off as a result, who were on the point of selling their wedding rings to feed their families. Whether such people can support an operative democracy, or whther they might be open to manipulation by demagogues is, I think, open to question.

So I think for once we are in agreement and that pleases me.

Phil

[Natalie Severn]

Oh thats sweet Phil!
Cheers,
ps btw---that is really fascinating about your professor and about your own eye witness accounts Phil

[jason_c]

I didn't say Cuba was perfect Jason, and I agree with you about the treatment and often imprisonment of homosexuals in Cuba which has been a total disgrace and breach of human rights.
But Castro has done his best,along with Raul and others, to survive on the borders of an extremely hostile America,and they have done a lot more than survive as Julie says.Not easy in terms of trade .
I can't quote statistics right now on how Cuba has sent its doctors to the major disaster regions like Haiti etc as I haven't time to look it up but I read about it and heard about it through several news channels and when I have time will check it out.
The world's leading male ballet star Costa is Cuban and has been interviewed several times and speaks enthusiatically about his country.
Now, lets have a look at a tiny area of Cuba under American Control shall we?
Guatanamo Bay.Here you have up to 600 prisoners at a time in cages without trial----a total disgrace in terms of human rights would you not agree Jason?

http://old.cageprisoners.com/articles.php?id=1036

Natalie, trying to comparethe "tiny" Guatanamo bay to Cuba as a whole is misleading. Comparing it to the Cuban political prisoner system is a more apt comparison. Neither are great, neither are easily solvable for the authorities. Neither inmates will have had much of a trial, if any.

The main differences being Guatanamo is largely for those accused of violent offences, Cuban political prisons are usually populated by free speech advocates. Another difference is freedom of the press to criticize such facilities. You as an advocate of free speach cant see this?

Sending doctors to Haiti is admirable, as is Costa waxing lyrical of Cuban healthcare. Again, you overlook the major fundamental flaw in an authoritarian regime - the right to criticize. The right for us all to openly weigh up the evidence. Evidence is usually censored for a good reason. I would be more likely to admire healthcare in Cuba if any media outlet could report objectively on the situation. Uncensored spot checks would be a start, they wont happen any time soon.

[Phil H]

My professor, I will not name him, was a Terry Thomas-like "twerp". He had been HM Ambassador in three arab states, all of whom broke off diplomatic relations during his tenure!! I think he caused the Suez crisis single-handed. He modelled himself very much on Anthony Eden who may have been one of his mentors.

I love the Middle East and its people. Syria was fascinating. There is an archaeological site way out in the desert called Ebla - site of an amazingly old city (3rd millenium BC).

The local people still live in beehive shaped houses. On our tour were a couple who's friends had visited the area about six months before and taken photographs. When the news got round that copies of the pictures had ben brought back THE WHOLE VILLAGE clustered round as if a miracle has occured. I have never seen anything like it. That is how remote and rustic (bucolic) the interior of Syria remains.

I love Syria - in Aleppo (fantastic citadel!) I had a Turkish bath in a hamam that was somewhere around 1,000 years old. But I think it may be some years before I will be able to go back.

Phil

[jason_c]

Phil

I think Assad is now toast after this weekends events. I cant see the regime lasting too much longer. I hope im correct.

[Phil H]

The current President Bashar Assad was never intended to be the ruler. His elder brother Basil was groomed for the role but killed in a car accident (I think).

When I was in Syria - in the late 90s -there were posters of Basil all over Damascus, in a variety of guises - a girl on the tour and I had a running joke about them - Basil the racing car driver; Basil the general; Basil the playboy; Basil the Christ and so on.

I suspect that Bashar is weak, les politically adept and less secure in his role, which would mean he is dependent on the Ba'ath party organisation and its loyalty, the army and his political allies. If they think he will go they will desert him. But I also think they know that the US and Europe will not engage while Libya remains a problem. Thus he may be secure for a while.

I do not think it will be easy for the population to over throw him.

Phil