Osama Bin Laden DEAD- Killed By U.S. Forces

[Bob Hinton]

Come again?

I didn't say anything about Wikipedia....and you are clearly in the "camp" of the people who are saying that Britain did not sell arms, etc...

Hinton, et. al. are saying that Britian didn't sell anything to them...

Mainstream news sources and Britain's own releases/governmental reports/papers are saying they did...

Not only did Britain sell arms and other related equipment, e.g., mortar locaters and such), but they trained Iraqi pilots and provided troop uniforms (army shirts) to the tune/cost of 830,000 pounds; that's a sh*tload of shirts!

I'm sorry you really must learn to read what people have written - not what you wish they had said.

Can you please show me precisely where I said "Hinton, et. al. are saying that Britian didn't sell anything to them..." or anything even approximating that. If you cannot then perhaps you would like to withdraw that accusation and apologise.

[cappuccina]

..."What guns and tanks did we sell him..."

[cappuccina]

....You are obviously implying that she (Limehouse) is incorrect about the Brits selling him guns, tanks, miscellaneous equipment and services, etc; clearly she is NOT incorrect about it...

I cited manistream BRITISH news sources and the BRITISH government's own sources on it, saying such items were sold, with large expenditures. End of story, unless you are here just to play games.

[jason_c]

Table of major conventional arms sales to Iraq by country:

Country↓ Weapon designation↓ Weapon description↓ Year(s) delivered↓ Quantity delivered↓


China Xian H-6 Bomber aircraft 1988 4
China F-6 Fighter aircraft 1982-1983 40
China F-7A Fighter aircraft 1983-1987 80
China Type-63 107mm Multiple rocket launcher 1984-1988 100
China Type-83 152mm Towed gun 1988-1989 50
China W-653/Type-653 ARV 1986-1987 25
China WZ-120/Type-59 Tank 1982-1987 1000
China WZ-121/Type 69 Tank 1983-1987 1500
China YW-531/Type-63 APC 1982-1988 650
China CEIEC-408C Air surv radar 1986-1988 5
China HN-5A Portable SAM 1986-1987 1000
China HY-2/SY1A/CSS-N-2 Anti-ship missile 1987-1988 200
Czechoslovakia L-39Z Albatross Trainer/combat aircraft 1976-1985 59
Czechoslovakia BMP-1 Infantry fighting vehicle 1981-1987 750
Czechoslovakia BMP-2 Infantry fighting vehicle 1987-1989 250
Czechoslovakia OT-64C APC 1981 200
Czechoslovakia T-55 Tank 1982-1985 400
Denmark Al Zahraa Landing ship 1983 3
East Germany T-55 Tank 1981 50
Egypt D-30 122mm Towed gun 1985-1989 210
Egypt M-46 130mm Towed gun 1981-1983 96
Egypt RL-21 122mm Multiple rocket launcher 1987-1989 300
Egypt T-55 Tank 1981-1983 300
Egypt Walid APC 1980 100
France Mirage F-1C Fighter aircraft 1982-1990 72
France Mirage F-1E FGA aircraft 1980-1982 36
France SA-312H Super Frelon Helicopter 1981 6
France SA-330 Puma Helicopter 1980-1981 20
France SA-342K/L Gazelle Light helicopter 1980-1988 38
France Super Etendard FGA aircraft 1983 5
France AMX-GCT/AU-F1 Self-propelled gun 1983-1985 85
France AMX-10P Infantry fighting vehicle 1981-1982 100
France AMX-30D ARV 1981 5
France ERC-90 Armoured car 1980-1984 200
France M-3 VTT APC 1983-1984 115
France VCR-TH Tank destroyer 1979-1981 100
France Rasit Ground surv radar 1985 2
France Roland Mobile SAM system 1982-1985 113
France TRS-2100 Tiger Air surv radar 1988 1
France TRS-2105/6 Tiger-G Air surv radar 1986-1989 5
France TRS-2230/15 Tiger Air surv radar 1984-1985 6
France Volex Air surv radar 1981-1983 5
France AM-39 Exocet Anti-ship missile 1979-1988 352
France ARMAT Anti-radar missile 1986-1990 450
France AS-30L ASM 1986-1990 240
France HOT Anti-tank missile 1981-1982 1000
France R-550 Magic-1 SRAAM 1981-1985 534
France Roland-2 SAM 1981-1990 2260
France Super 530F BVRAAM 1981-1985 300
West Germany BK-117 Helicopter 1984-1989 22
West Germany Bo-105C Light Helicopter 1979-1982 20
West Germany Bo-105L Light Helicopter 1988 6
Hungary PSZH-D-994 APC 1981 300

Jordan S-76 Spirit Helicopter 1985 2
Poland Mi-2/Hoplite Helicopter 1984-1985 15
Poland MT-LB APC 1983-1990 750
Poland T-55 Tank 1981-1982 400
Poland T-72M1 Tank 1982-1990 500
Romania T-55 Tank 1982-1984 150
Yugoslavia M-87 Orkan 262mm Multiple rocket launcher 1988 2
South Africa G-5 155mm Towed gun 1985-1988 200
Switzerland PC-7 Turbo trainer Trainer aircraft 1980-1983 52
Switzerland PC-9 Trainer aircraft 1987-1990 20
Switzerland Roland APC/IFV 1981 100
United Kingdom Chieftain/ARV ARV 1982 29
United Kingdom Cymbeline Arty locating radar 1986-1988 10
United States MD-500MD Defender Light Helicopter 1983 30
United States Hughes-300/TH-55 Light Helicopter 1983 30
United States MD-530F Light Helicopter 1986 26
United States Bell 214ST Helicopter 1988 31
Soviet Union Il-76M/Candid-B Strategic airlifter 1978-1984 33
Soviet Union Mi-24D/Mi-25/Hind-D Attack helicopter 1978-1984 12
Soviet Union Mi-8/Mi-17/Hip-H Transport helicopter 1986-1987 37
Soviet Union Mi-8TV/Hip-F Transport helicopter 1984 30
Soviet Union Mig-21bis/Fishbed-N Fighter aircraft 1983-1984 61
Soviet Union Mig-23BN/Flogger-H FGA aircraft 1984-1985 50
Soviet Union Mig-25P/Foxbat-A Interceptor aircraft 1980-1985 55
Soviet Union Mig-25RB/Foxbat-B Recon aircraft 1982 8
Soviet Union Mig-29/Fulcrum-A Fighter aircraft 1986-1989 41
Soviet Union Su-22/Fitter-H/J/K FGA aircraft 1986-1987 61
Soviet Union Su-25/Frogfoot-A Ground attack aircraft 1986-1987 84
Soviet Union 2A36 152mm Towed gun 1986-1988 180
Soviet Union 2S1 122mm Self-Propelled Howitzer 1980-1989 150
Soviet Union 2S3 152mm Self-propelled gun 1980-1989 150
Soviet Union 2S4 240mm Self-propelled mortar 1983 10
Soviet Union 9P117/SS-1 Scud TEL SSM launcher 1983-1984 10
Soviet Union BM-21 Grad 122mm Multiple rocket launcher 1983-1988 560
Soviet Union D-30 122mm Towed gun 1982-1988 576
Soviet Union M-240 240mm Mortar 1981 25
Soviet Union M-46 130mm Towed Gun 1982-1987 576
Soviet Union 9K35 Strela-10/SA-13 AAV(M) 1985 30
Soviet Union BMD-1 IFV 1981 10
Soviet Union PT-76 Light tank 1984 200
Soviet Union SA-9/9P31 AAV(M) 1982-1985 160
Soviet Union Long Track Air surv radar 1980-1984 10
Soviet Union SA-8b/9K33M Osa AK Mobile SAM system 1982-1985 50
Soviet Union Thin Skin Air surv radar 1980-1984 5
Soviet Union 9M111/AT-4 Spigot Anti-tank missile 1986-1989 3000
Soviet Union 9M37/SA-13 Gopher SAM 1985-1986 960
Soviet Union KSR-5/AS-6 Kingfish Anti-ship missile 1984 36
Soviet Union Kh-28/AS-9 Kyle Anti-radar missile 1983-1988 250
Soviet Union R-13S/AA2S Atoll SRAAM 1984-1987 1080
Soviet Union R-17/SS-1c Scud-B SSM 1982-1988 840
Soviet Union R-27/AA-10 Alamo BVRAAM 1986-1989 246
Soviet Union R-40R/AA-6 Acrid BVRAAM 1980-1985 660
Soviet Union R-60/AA-8 Aphid SRAAM 1986-1989 582
Soviet Union SA-8b Gecko/9M33M SAM 1982-1985 1290
Soviet Union SA-9 Gaskin/9M31 SAM 1982-1985 1920
Soviet Union Strela-3/SA-14 Gremlin Portable SAM 1987-1988 500


I notice certain posters have not one jot of criticism of the USSR, France or China "bankrolling" Iraq. Its the usual blame America (and Britain) first brigade.

[cappuccina]

...that would NOT be me...I don't like that ANY country helped them out...

Your source for the table is?

List of suppliers/coporations from Great Britain who sold military and related weapons and supplies to Iraq:

My source is:

http://www.taz.de/pt/2002/12/19/a0080.nf/textdruck

Legend:

A = nuclear program
B = bioweapons program
C = chemical weapons program
R = rocket program,
K = conventional weapons, military logistics, supplies at the Iraqi Defense Ministry and the building of military plants.


GREAT BRITAIN

1 Euromac Ltd-Uk (A)

2 C. Plath-Nuclear (A)

3 Endshire Export Marketing (A)

4 International Computer Systems (A, R, K)

5 MEED International (A, C)

6 Walter Somers Ltd. (R)

7 International Computer Limited (A, K)

8 Matrix Churchill Corp. (A)

9 Ali Ashour Daghir (A)

10 International Military Services (R)

11 Sheffield Forgemasters (R)

12 Technology Development Group (R)

13 International Signal and Control (R)

14 Terex Corporation (R)

15 Inwako (A)

16 TMG Engineering (K)

17 XYY Options, Inc (A)


There's also this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/mar/06/uk.iraq

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/mar/06/uk.iraq2

[cappuccina]

...and this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/bbc_parliament/3631539.stm

Ok, I looked it up; your source is Wikipedia and through them, this:

http://www.sipri.org/research/armaments/transfers/databases/armstransfers

I ran a search in SIPRI's databases, and got total numbers by country for importing (all) armaments to Iraq from 1950 to the present; the "top 5" are:

Russia/USSR: 31,383

France: 5,062

China: 5,018

USA: 1,370

UK: 731

Now, of course the UK is spending/sending vastly more "proportionally" because it is a much smaller country...GNP is 14 trillion something for the US, vs 2 something trillion for the UK, I believe...same with all of these countries, actually...Russia is, of course, the worst, by far...

[Limehouse]

Thanks for your sterling work Caps. Brilliant stuff.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

I'm sorry, dear American friends, but I find you having a feast after a kill macabre...

I didn't and don't accept Osama and his followers, but...!

All the best, though
Jukka

[Limehouse]

I do not wish to belittle the contribution of anyone who has fought in the armed services.

Neither did I suggest that the Uk was the ONLY country who sold arms to Iraq.

Perhaps I was hasty in specifying GUNS and TANKS. What is clear is that military equipment was sold to Iraq by the Uk and that the UK government subsequently went to war with Iraq over its invasion of Kuwait.

I would also like to speak out against the term 'defence equipment'. How does a country or regime define how 'defence' should be interpreted? How much care do countries selling such equipment take to ensure the equipment is not sold on to other countries who use them to arm ten year old boys?

[c.d.]

Hello you all!

I'm sorry, dear American friends, but I find you having a feast after a kill macabre...

I didn't and don't accept Osama and his followers, but...!

All the best, though
Jukka

Hi Jukka,

I am an American and I have to agree with you. It was not the classiest thing to do and made us look no better than the people who celebrated in the Middle East on 9/11 when the Twin Towers fell. But at the same time, 9/11 was an incredibly horrible day for America. The memory of it has not faded and emotions are still raw. So I am willing to cut some slack.

I also want to say that as an American I am extremely proud of our military forces and the job they did in removing this evil scumbag from the world.

c.d.

[jason_c]

GREAT BRITAIN

1 Euromac Ltd-Uk (A)
2 C. Plath-Nuclear (A)
3 Endshire Export Marketing (A)
4 International Computer Systems (A, R, K)
5 MEED International (A, C)
6 Walter Somers Ltd. (R)
7 International Computer Limited (A, K)
8 Matrix Churchill Corp. (A)
9 Ali Ashour Daghir (A)
10 International Military Services (R)
11 Sheffield Forgemasters (R)
12 Technology Development Group (R)
13 International Signal and Control (R)
14 Terex Corporation (R)
15 Inwako (A)
16 TMG Engineering (K)
17 XYY Options, Inc (A)

I bet many of these deals were for non military purposes. For instance, helping to build a nuclear reactor is not an arms sale.

[Limehouse]

GREAT BRITAIN

1 Euromac Ltd-Uk (A)
2 C. Plath-Nuclear (A)
3 Endshire Export Marketing (A)
4 International Computer Systems (A, R, K)
5 MEED International (A, C)
6 Walter Somers Ltd. (R)
7 International Computer Limited (A, K)
8 Matrix Churchill Corp. (A)
9 Ali Ashour Daghir (A)
10 International Military Services (R)
11 Sheffield Forgemasters (R)
12 Technology Development Group (R)
13 International Signal and Control (R)
14 Terex Corporation (R)
15 Inwako (A)
16 TMG Engineering (K)
17 XYY Options, Inc (A)

I bet many of these deals were for non military purposes. For instance, helping to build a nuclear reactor is not an arms sale.

Number 5 - C stands for chemical weapons programme. Maybe not arms but pretty horrific nevertheless.

K = includes 'conventional weapons' which I guess could mean guns.

[sleekviper]

Christine was 2 1/2 when flight 175 slammed into the world trade towers, and her grandfather had to watch his son, his daughter in law, and the baby grandchild die over and over for a very long time on television,still clutching the phone that his son spoke his last words from as the plane crashed. One story out of thousands, one story more than enough to understand the reaction to those that rejoice at the loss of a symbol of hate. Many Americans felt as if each victim was an actual member of the family, a loved one that had done nothing wrong to end up in such a horrible plight. Christine was 2 and a half, destroyed in a heartbeat, and hated for being in America. Some will rejoice because it was more than just 'someone' murdered 10 years ago, it was family. It was a lot of family, and the symbol of hate is gone.

[Bob Hinton]

Shabby Behaviour By Posters

....You are obviously implying that she (Limehouse) is incorrect about the Brits selling him guns, tanks, miscellaneous equipment and services, etc; clearly she is NOT incorrect about it...

I cited manistream BRITISH news sources and the BRITISH government's own sources on it, saying such items were sold, with large expenditures. End of story, unless you are here just to play games.

You really must stop this silly nonsense and have the decency to admit you were wrong and you accused me and others of doing something we clearly had not done. I can assure you I am not playing games here – when someone publicly calls me a liar I take that very, very seriously indeed.

You seem to lack the ability to actually comprehend what has been written, instead putting your own, faulty, interpretation to something that is crystal clear
.
To save you the time of going back I re-publish the relevant sections here:
Limehouse post 25.

And the UK - who sold him guns and tanks.

Red Zeppelin Post 29

I didn't see Saddam's army equipped with British Challenger and Chieftain tanks

No answer from Limehouse to this point.

My post 35:

What guns and tanks did we sell him? I'm only asking because I have yet to see a picture of an Iraqi armed with a SA80 or driving a Challenger. They all seemed to be armed with AK's and driving T73's!

Since Limehouse refused to answer my question and started to wriggle I posted post 36.

You made a statement that we sold him guns and tanks. Can you provide any evidence at all that we did that?

I'm not talking about convoluted stings by MI6, but Iraqis armed with British guns and British tanks. If you cannot then please withdraw your statement.


Red Zeppelin also attempts to get a straight answer but fails hence his post 38:

Again, what tanks and guns did the British sell to Saddam?

Limehouse again fails to answer a straightforward question. Cappucina then wades in with:

Post 43 : you people were saying Britain didn't sell anything....not true, obviously

Which is obviously a complete lie as can been seen by the above posts. I and others are asking Limehouse to back up the statement that Britain “sold tanks and guns” – specific items, not defence equipment like shirts – but tanks and guns.

We are still waiting for either Limehouse and supporter Cappucina to provide evidence that Britain sold “tanks and guns” to Saddam or withdraw the statement and apologise for calling us liars.

Cappucina in post 43 accuses Jason of “misquoting me” which he certainly didn’t. When Jason asked Cappucina to show where this had happened she ignored him – which is her way of avoiding correcting or apologising for her rubbish.

Instead of doing the decent thing Cappucina then comes back with post 48 (reproduced at the start of this post) which now accuses me of “implying” certain things. I don’t imply – where matters of fact are involved I state!

Now is it too much to expect a withdrawal of the remark that Britain “sold tanks and guns” and an apology for calling us liars – or are we to be treated to another helping of bluff and bluster, wiffle and waffle?

[Bob Hinton]

Limehouse Blues

This is getting ridiculous. When Jason prints a copy of the list of companies doing business with Iraq in post 56, which is completely bare of any reference to Guns and tanks, the best Limehouse can come up with in post 57 is a the code ‘K’ which according to Limehouse:

“K = includes 'conventional weapons' which I guess could mean guns”

Which can also include field kitchens and tin boxes!

So in the space of a couple of days Limehouse has gone from assuring the world that Britain sold “tanks and guns” to Iraq to admitting it might have been a primus stove and a ration box! Brilliant! The deductive and reasoning powers of this person are frightening – I can see it now,

“Good Lord Limehouse so Jack the Ripper was a Targon Time Lord from the Zipdadeedooda Nebula. I would never have thought it!”

To which Limehouse’s brilliant reply is:

“Well I guess he could be”

Well done Limehouse – after the death of Sir Henry I needed something to cheer me up!