Osama Bin Laden DEAD- Killed By U.S. Forces

[Jonathan H]

Tail-Gunner Joe

I totally agree that there were liberals who turned a blind eye to 'Uncle Joe' and his massacres of his own people and other countries. Some went much further and actively spied for the Russians.

But that's a police matter, not one for politicians and their partisan jockeying for votes.

If you want to have a real laugh see the American, war-time propaganda Warners movie 'Mission to Moscow', on youtube, with Stalin portrayed as a benign, articulate, Russian version of Roosevelt -- with a pipe -- and his bloodthirsty purges turned into fastidiously legal and just trials of guilty traitors!

I am not sure there has been such a grotesque inversion of the facts by Hollywood until Oliver Stone's 'JFK' (1991), which transformed an unscrupulous, lunatic D.A. and his malicious prosecution, into a courageous truth-seeker -- and the innocent defendant into a guilty conspirator!

It was this factor, the blindness of liberals to Stalin's on-going holocaust, which turned the very liberal Ronald Reagan into a far-right winger; eg. his nasty experiences with Hollywood Stalinists when he was head of the Screen Actor's Guild.

Yet it was also liberals, along with conservatives, eg. the East Coast establishment, who set up the Cold War policy of Containment

But that did not stop the unscrupulous Right from using anti-Communism to tarnish every liberal and Democrat (Truman?) as a fellow-traveler because they believed in values of the New Deal.

The other Joe, McCarthy, was an utter scoundrel and to refer to him in any kind of serious or approving way exposes a gaping ignorance about that vile senator's agenda, let alone his bullying methods. His methods were his agenda, for he was a liar on a truly awesome scale, and did enormous damage to the United States, the detritus of which lasts to his day -- Fox News anyone?

For example, McCarthy's efforts helped purge the State Dept of anybody who had predicted Mao's victory. That left behind the second-raters who had predicted Chiang's survival. Those well-meaning knuckleheads, like Dean Rusk, would later, well-meaningly, get us into the quagmire of Viet Nam.

'Tail-Gunner' Joe (even his heroic nickname was a lie) was not the slightest bit interested in Communism or espionage, he just loved headlines, gambling, boozing and wielding brute power -- and he knew that mud sticks especially if you throw a lot of it.

The Republicans unleashed this dangerous demagogue out of acute frustration with, unexpectedly, losing the '48 election to Truman.

But once Ike was safely elected they discovered, to their horror, that they could not put this evil genie back in his bottle, and so it was people like Ike and Nixon, and so on, who had to bring him down -- along with the liberal lawyer Joseph Welch at the Army-McCarthy Hearings.

McCarthy had accused the Army of being riddled with Reds, purely for personal reasons to do with his even more vile sidekick, Roy Cohn.

All of which hardly exonerates Eisenhower from not speaking up when McCarthy appallingly denigrated General Marshall as a traitor in '52.

Historically there were two other significant aspects to McCarthy.

To his credit he never deployed anti-Semitism as part of his mudslinging armoury. The other was that he was the first Catholic to garner mass suppoprt from Protestants, thus paving the way for his young pal, John F Kennedy, to [narrowly] win the Presidenacy over his former drinking buddy Nixon -- which could not have happened if Joe had married JFK's sister, as he almost did.

By the end of his shortish life, McCarthy, friendless, discredited and censured, looked around for another issue to bring back the glory and chose extending the welfare state, just like some unreconstructed New Dealer.

Though it did not work, and he died unmourned by all soon after, McCarthy's dark legacy lives on, and on. He is the fear, the 'Who-Lost-China' shadow, which propelled liberals to advise LBJ to escalate the Viet Nam War, to plunge us into a catastrophe to avoid the revival of McCarthysim without McCarthy-- George Ball and Clarke Clifford excepted

[Errata]

Well, I had the opportunity to spend some time with Jim Garrison, and I think I can say that there is not a malicious bone in his body. Nor do I think his methods were unscrupulous as much as completely without legal precedent. Often for a good reason. And his defendant was not so much innocent as much as not guilty of anything to do with Kennedy.

He was however a barking lunatic.

I am crazy, I know crazy. There is a peculiar inward gaze, like someone remembering... watching a movie they saw recently. He had that. Daft as they come. But otherwise a genuinely lovely man.

I imagine McCarthy somewhat the same. I mean, he almost had my grandfather executed (without his having been arrested mind you... which is a neat trick) so clearly I'm not a fan. Ironically, Roy Cohn saved my grandfather's hide. But thats a long and weird story. But I imagine that sitting around the table at a restaurant, McCarthy was just a nice, maybe a little prudish guy who is perfectly pleasant company unless you bring up that ONE subject. And then you're stuck for 3 hours while everyone glares at you for mentioning the "C" word.

I bet Hitler was the same way. I don't think it's a liberal or a conservative thing. Well, those words are a little misleading, and right or left isn't right either. It's radicals. Radical left, radical right, it doesn't matter. Radicals have a fixation, some weird all consuming shining unwavering vision. And it's a form of mental illness. Because they are willing to sacrifice others for that vision. They can't sacrifice themselves, because then who would have the vision, but others are absolutely disposable.

I am really really really liberal. According to some people "unreasonably liberal". And you work any pro-choice gig long enough, and you find the hypocrites. Or maybe it's those who learn the hard way who choose not to disclose how they learned. Whatever. Important people in the Pro-Life movement have had abortions. Or paid for a girlfriend or mistress to have one. And it's tempting to think that if you disseminate that information then the pro-life movement would crumble. And I know that McCarthy would have done it in a heartbeat. But I have never met anyone who has considered it for more than a second. None of us would compromise what we believed in just to beat them (it would absolutely NOT be a win). I cannot imagine taking a life for it. I would die for it, but kill? Not a chance.

And I'm kinda rabid about this stuff. Which means that McCarthy was not a politician as much as he was Jim Jones. I mean, how you get the gig is different, but they treated the platform the same. The entire country drank the Big Red Kool-Aid, and people died. Ethel Rosenberg was electrocuted three times until her head was smoking when they knew she was innocent. Her brother was guilty, and he recruited her husband and threw him under the bus when he got caught so he could get immunity, but they had NOTHING on Ethel and they killed her anyway. Thats not politics. Thats mass hysteria, folie a deux, cult of personality, it's absolute insanity.

There's a line from a seriously mediocre movie about JFK. He says "You know, there's something... immoral about abandoning your own judgment"

That's why I don't care who disagrees with me. I mean, I'll argue back, don't get me wrong... But the only thing worse I can think of than being McCarthy is to one day look around and realize you are McCarthy, and you didn't intend to be.

[jason_c]

Errata, can I ask for more details of your grandfather and Joe McCarthy. If you wish to give them that is.

Im not surprised to see the thread moving towards Joe McCarthy and away from the Progressive Movements endorsement of Stalinism.

Jonathan, its not simply a "police matter". When the Left (often correctly) accuse the Right of being soft on Fascism, then claim the moral high ground, its only proper that the Lefts seedy history with Stalinism is brought up. It is a moral and political matter not a police matter.

George Bernard Shaw
The Webbs
Walter Duranty
Joseph E Davies
Lillian Hellman
Victor Gollancz
And many many more

None of these were spies. None needed to be investigated by the police. Every one of them denied a past and present "holocaust". Every one of them a moral dung beetle.


RANT OVER.

[Jonathan H]

It's no surprise to me that once the discussion does move to McCarthy, and the Ism, it is batted straight back to fellow travelers.

If you want an even better example pf Red stooges, try Henry Wallace whose 1948 third party, allegedly progressive, was a Stalinist front through and through.

My objection was that you wrote about McCarthy as if he was a controversial figure, perhaps somewhat vindicated by history.

Actually there is a posthumous consensus that he was utterly insincere and destructive, a consensus which spans both the Left and the Right -- notable exceptions being William F. Buckley Jr. and Patrick Buchanan.

It would not matter if it turned out that the US government had hundreds, even thousands more Red spies than was thought, as that was not Joe's agenda at all. The hunting of Communists was of no interest -- and he found none -- it was the power to make headlines, and have great fun at the expense of other people's lives, not actually do anything; he was not a 'doer'.

McCarthy did so much damage, and gave so much aid and comfort to the enemy in the Kremlin, that the central, satirical joke of 'The Manchurian Candidate' (1962) is that he was being manipulated by Communist deep penetration agents.

[jason_c]

It's no surprise to me that once the discussion does move to McCarthy, and the Ism, it is batted straight back to fellow travelers.

If you want an even better example pf Red stooges, try Henry Wallace whose 1948 third party, allegedly progressive, was a Stalinist front through and through.

My objection was that you wrote about McCarthy as if he was a controversial figure, perhaps somewhat vindicated by history.

Actually there is a posthumous consensus that he was utterly insincere and destructive, a consensus which spans both the Left and the Right -- notable exceptions being William F. Buckley Jr. and Patrick Buchanan.

It would not matter if it turned out that the US government had hundreds, even thousands more Red spies than was thought, as that was not Joe's agenda at all. The hunting of Communists was of no interest -- and he found none -- it was the power to make headlines, and have great fun at the expense of other people's lives, not actually do anything; he was not a 'doer'.

McCarthy did so much damage, and gave so much aid and comfort to the enemy in the Kremlin, that the central, satirical joke of 'The Manchurian Candidate' (1962) is that he was being manipulated by Communist deep penetration agents.

I didnt mean to give the impression he has been vindicated by history. I feel if he were alive today he himself would feel vindicated by what we now know of communist infiltration. This is not a defense of his actions or tactics.

I disagree he found no communists, Owen Lattimore is testament to this.

I know of Henry Wallace. A 3rd party candidate in 1948. More importantly he was Vice President of the United States between 1941-45. This Stalinist frontman missed becoming President of the United States by a matter of months(see McCarthys self vindication above). And this is not to mention Harry Dexter White(he of the Venona transcripts) at the Treasury Dept who would very likely have become Secretary of the Treasury in a Wallace administration. Stalinists in the two highest positions of the U.S. Govt was a very close run thing.

[Canopy]

Big kids who go around having a go at little kids were always called a bully from where I come from

So you agree that you are a little kid? Actually a bully is someone who attacks another without fear of retaliation. As I said if you want to attack me -dig out- but forget the bit about me not retaliating!

The war in Europe was over in May. The USA had to be kicked by the Japanese into supporting us because of Pearl Habour. Even the US realised that the war had to be won in Europe first with the invasion of France.


I’m sorry I’m just an historian. I didn’t realize there were two wars going on between 1939 and 1945. So according to you we had a World War II European Tour, and then World War II Pacific Venue? Well sorry to disabuse you little boy but the war ended in September 1945, so that anything that happened in August 1945 cannot possibly be described as ‘post-war’. Get a grown up to explain it to you.

What was this country doing invading another country in 2003? Beside, how many of the suicide bombers were of Iraqi or Afghani descent? All were from ex-Pakistani families, Pakistan is supposedly an ally of the West.

I’m sorry what country is this? If you mean Iraq, well that’s because they broke the terms of the ceasefire previously agreed. As for the decendency of the bombers – what's your point? The nationality of many of the people who fought for the Nazis wasn’t German.

But what the hell was the USA doing in Korea in the first place?

The US (apart from a few small bases) weren’t in Korea before the invasion. Your ignorance seems to blind you to the fact that the war was fought by the United Nations – not the United States.

Even the Ultra Conservative Governor of California Arnie Schwarzenegger perferred an Uzi 9mm and an AK47 for his films that were dedicated to world peace and harmony

I’ve got absolutely no idea what this supposed to mean. Uzi’s are made by the Israelis and AK’s are Russian built. What films have to do with the argument I don’t know unless little boy here thinks they’re real.

I assume that you mean invade in the same sense as our ancestors invaded and killed so many people in countries all over the world.


Which ancestors are these? Do you mean the Roman ancestors who invaded us from Italy, the Viking ancestors, who invaded us from Scandinavia, the Saxon ancestors who invaded us from Germany, the French ancestors who invaded us from Normandy? This was how empires were made in years gone by, I would have hoped by 1945 we would have learnt better.


I'll give you the benefit of any doubt here.

Oh there’s absolutely no doubt!

I'll leave the personal insults to you Bob...it seems it is all you do as far as I'm concerned.

Well thankfully the concerns of a little boy like you don’t have to bother us too much.

And finally this gem:

Oh dear well I am sorry that my speeling mistacks ofeend.

They don’t offend – they sadden! As I said earlier –poorly educated.

Well, I too am a Historian and there's no doubt Bob knows what he knows!! "Little boy" is a tad harsh but, sure as chips, Bob knows what he knows very well!!! Historians don't tend to 'back down' as the past is our life. Have full respect for Bob as a fellow Historian - though would suggest "little boy" below the belt...Come on Bob, be nice!

[Errata]

Errata, can I ask for more details of your grandfather and Joe McCarthy. If you wish to give them that is.

Ok: ragingly off topic, but I can see how I threw out kind of a teaser there, so I'll tell the story, and we can get back to liberals or conservative, or whatever else is ironically ALSO not about Osama Bin Ladin

Well, like anything from this era, there is what we know, and what we think we know. My grandfather did not discuss it, and we cannot get his files through the freedom of information act. Evidently they are still sealed.

My grandfather was a parole officer in the 40s in New York City, and worked with Roy Cohn and the US Attorney's Office setting up parole, and early releases etc. for the aging gangsters from the 20's and 30's (resulting in my dad and uncle learning how to play poker from old Murder Inc. guys in my grandfathers office). So they knew each other, if not well.

My grandfather had also been a communist in the 30's. My grandmother was Russian Jew, and had lived under communism and heard her parents talking about how much better it was than life under the Tsar etc. So she joined the Communist party in an effort to get it recognized as the official government in Russia and for trade to be renegotiated with the new government. My grandfather joined with her. It lasted about three years, and they left. But they still had communist friends. Including evidently the Rosenbergs.

During WWII, my grandfather continued with his job, but also some of the first Jews had come over fleeing the Nazi's. My grandfather was an Austrian Jew, and he spoke German, Dutch and some Polish. Jews who had fled were desperate to tell the US what was going on, with ghettos, raids, mass executions, death camps, etc. And many of the Jews that made it out were Austrian, Dutch, French, etc. Evidently these Jews went to the cops with their stories, and they were sent to the US Attorney's office before being sent to an intelligence agency. My grandfather spent a lot of time translating for these Jews, and translating for reports sent to the State Department.

So that's what we know. We also know that about the time the Rosenbergs were arrested, my Grandfather got a phone call that sent him to the bank, at which point he handed my uncle a coffee can with $25,000 in it, and told him to hide it, and if he didn't come home one day, or something happened, to take the money and my dad and go to their Aunt Ruthie's house. Nothing ever happened, and in fact my uncle sat bolt upright one night his first year in college, called my dad and told him to go over the Greenbaums house, and to take the coffee can taped behind the basketball goal and give it to my grandfather (it had been there about 7 years).

About a year after the Rosenbergs were arrested, my dad and uncle got an "Uncle Roy" for about three years (not really uncle like, they saw him maybe twice, but thats what my grandmother referred to him as when they asked who their dad was talking to). It was Roy Cohn, and they never particularly heard about him after that.

So we think that during the Rosenberg investigation, somehow my grandparents names came up. My grandfather had worked for the State of New York, and during the war had done some work for the State department. Because he had done the work for the State Department DURING wartime, any charge of communism or espionage made would be treason. Which allows a death sentence to be handed down without a trial.

My grandfather built one of the first retirement communities in Florida out of donations. About 70% of which came from three anonymous donors. And he had been a parole officer for mobsters. So we all assumed that some of his old parolees kept in touch. He was no longer in law enforcement and clearly couldn't do anything for them. Maybe he did back then. We don't know. But we think Cohn wanted those guys, and my grandfather could give them to him. We think Cohn saved my grandfather so he could get his own mafia ties. We think to keep him from being blackmailed by other gangs who knew about his homosexuality because he was using gang owned stables (boy brothels). That last part is a total guess, but given his prominence and his temperament we have no idea where else he would be finding people to have sex with, especially as he and McCarthy were targeting homosexuals. And all stables were mob owned.

So thats the whole weird story. We have no idea what really happened. This seems a good guess. We won't know until they unseal his files. I mean, any of these events can be explained any number of ways. It's the confluence of events that makes us think this is what happened.

[Bob Hinton]

Post by Errata

How fascinating! It always gets me when history is so close you can reach out and touch it.

[Errata]

How fascinating! It always gets me when history is so close you can reach out and touch it.

or not touch it as the case may be. I'm always half convinced that when his file is unsealed we're going to find that none of this was true, and his file was sealed because they were tapping his phone, or he proofread for the department of agriculture or something equally banal. But it was a mystery for my father at the time, heightened for him when my uncle remembered about the coffee can (because he didn't know that my grandfather even considered any imminent threat until then), and my grandfather died pretty young, and my grandmother was insane at that point, so by the time I got around to it the family mythos was already pretty firmly set in.

If it is true, on the one hand thats pretty cool, but on the other hand it's really frightening. If it isn't true, then we have to find something that explains those few years, and it could be far worse/scarier being part of the red scare. I mean, I think. we can rule him out as being a spy, since once he arrived here he didn't leave again until exactly 40 years later to go to Jerusalem for a week. And I'm pretty sure Austria doesn't spy on the US, though you never know.

And all of this came up again because there are a lot of bizarre family stories, and my sister was going to write a book about them, so we put in to see if my grandfather had an FBI file, only to be told that if he did, it would still be classified. But since they correctly spelled his middle name on the return letter when I had accidentally misspelled it, we think something is afoot as they say.

I kinda just want to thank all you guys for not being horrified that my grandfather was a communist, however briefly. Where I live it's still kind of a thing.

[Stephen Thomas]

I kinda just want to thank all you guys for not being horrified that my grandfather was a communist, however briefly. Where I live it's still kind of a thing.

I guess that's one of the downsides of being American.

All the best. I think you're great.

[Robert]

Errata, if your grandad was a communist then you must be a communist, and everyone on this thread must be a communist, and in fact every member of Casebook too, including me. So why should I be horrified?

regards

Mr McCarthy

[Errata]

I guess that's one of the downsides of being American.

All the best. I think you're great.

Not so much an American ans a Southern American, but thank you

[Natalie Severn]

Thankyou,terrific stuff Errata.You should write a book.
Norma
x

[Bob Hinton]

I kinda just want to thank all you guys for not being horrified that my grandfather was a communist, however briefly. Where I live it's still kind of a thing

Yes but there is a distinct possibility that someone's grandfather was Jack the Ripper! I think that kinda trumps your grandpa possibly being a communist! As long as you aren't a communist Errata that's all that matters.

[Errata]

Yes but there is a distinct possibility that someone's grandfather was Jack the Ripper! I think that kinda trumps your grandpa possibly being a communist! As long as you aren't a communist Errata that's all that matters.

I gotta admit, the basic theory is very tempting. But I am enough of a student of human behaviour to know that it cannot work on a large scale, and on a small scale it's called communalism. Which does work actually, it's how the Israeli kibbutz works. But I don't want to farm. I really do not want to dig. I hate digging. So no Kibbutz for me, and therefore, capitalism seems the way to go. One of the great flaws of Marx's theory. No one really wants to be the proletariat.