Burka

[brummie]

""I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."

Now who would disagree with that?

No-one did more to create poverty and deprivation in this country than the Thatcher woman by destroying peoples jobs.Is it any wonder that Britain is broken when people feel that they have been abandoned with no hope or prospects.
We are still paying the price today for the culture she created in which the sole motivating factor is personal greed and to hell with those who get left behind.Her creation was a Britain in which it is every man for themselves with no resposiblities for the consequences.I for one would rather live in asociety where those who are better off and doing very nicely thankyou are made to support thiose who are struggling on a day to day basis,not just pull up the ladder and say "you're not entitled to anything,you're on your own".That should be one of the 'obligations' that people should be looking to meet.

[Rubyretro]

"Poverty may be a contributory factor, but it's not an excuse

".
Robert -that is the exact line taken by my arab teacher, in my previous Post, so I can't disagree with it except that it's only -'not an excuse' -when every condition is offered to children to break the 'poverty cycle' and they refuse it (at an age where they can be judged to be able to understand what they're being offered).
Bob said two things that shocked me -he talked about the availability of cheap, or free, books and said that poverty was no bar to literacy, and he quoted Margaret Thatcher and said that no one could object to what she actually said - but I do.
In the first place, with 2 sons, I know that they totally refuse to read a book ; they would rather watch telly , play computer games, or kick a ball about. I order them a monthly science magazine, which they enjoy, and I go to the library and choose a pile of very varied books (fiction and non fiction, short novels or graphic novels), which I leave lying in their rooms without comment, and regularly turn off the screens -and I'm satisfied that they read SOMETHING. How can you blame children if their parents don't do something like that ? -it's not the kids' fault. Also there are are many immigrant mothers who came here for arranged marriages, who can't help with homework (and who's macho dads won't help), and don't speak the language, and don't leave home -let alone use libraries ; it's not the children's fault.
Therefore, it's in the interest of 'Society' (which is 'us' in collective), to make sure that those children are educated and at least have every opportunity to integrate and get decent jobs. We simply can't rely on 'individuals' to 'look to themselves' -because either some won't (and we will have to suffer the consequences later), or they WILL 'look to themselves', and their own personal wealth rather than contributing to our Society, by turning to Crime.

[Robert]

"Also there are are many immigrant mothers who came here for arranged marriages, who can't help with homework (and who's macho dads won't help), and don't speak the language, and don't leave home -let alone use libraries ; it's not the children's fault."

Well Ruby, you are in France, so this is a matter for the French people. But what you've described doesn't seem like a wise move on France's part - especially if it has its own indigenous problem families.

[Limehouse]

No-one did more to create poverty and deprivation in this country than the Thatcher woman by destroying peoples jobs.Is it any wonder that Britain is broken when people feel that they have been abandoned with no hope or prospects.
We are still paying the price today for the culture she created in which the sole motivating factor is personal greed and to hell with those who get left behind.Her creation was a Britain in which it is every man for themselves with no resposiblities for the consequences.I for one would rather live in asociety where those who are better off and doing very nicely thankyou are made to support thiose who are struggling on a day to day basis,not just pull up the ladder and say "you're not entitled to anything,you're on your own".That should be one of the 'obligations' that people should be looking to meet.

Well said Brummie.

And - using Thatcher's example - maybe in 1914 more people should have exercised their duty to 'look after themselves' instead of enlisting or being conscripted and marching off to fight a war that would kill millions and do nothing to address the gap between the haves and have-nots.

[tji]

Hi all

Limehouse, I do agree that they got away with it easy, because when they were caught they still had the blood splatters on their clothing. The forensics also proved that the blood spatter showed they were kicking my partner while he was laid prone on the floor, (hence the attempted murder charge). Also the bats and golf club in their possesion were covered in clingfilm, to avoid DNA traces, there was the pre-meditation. These weren't some people out for a nice drive, they were intent on hurting someone.

On the day of the court hearing they were late appearing, so the judge remanded them overnight in jail for the trial the next day. One in the prison hospital because he was diabetic. Overnight the one with diabetes took ill so a complaint was lodged against the Judge because he shouldn't be putting this bloke through all stress of the court case with his medical condition!!!

As far as I am aware there was no issues, they were men out for a good time and something to brag about to their mates. They were from a decent background and no known 'disadvantages' in life, they were just having fun, the problem being that they had gotten away with it previously with a slap on the wrist and even after with a slap on the wrist.

If they had been denied bail, at any of the times of attacks, then they wouldn't have been on the streets to attack anyone.

Tj

[Robert]

Limehouse, I'm curious : what's your attitude to our declaration of war on Germany in 1939?

[tji]

Hi all

I think what I am trying to say, in my opinion, in a nutshell, sometimes statisics and reality don't match up.

Tj

[Robert]

Tj, my sympathies to you and your partner. Your case does not surprise me.

[tji]

Hi Robert

Thanks, call me cynical but it doesn't suprise me either.

I have to say, swapping stories with people we actually got a good result.

In all fairness I should point out the Police and CPS were very good, they tried their hardest.

Tj

[Limehouse]

Limehouse, I'm curious : what's your attitude to our declaration of war on Germany in 1939?

We had little choice but to declare war on Germany in 1939. However - in my opinion - the causes of WW2 are firmly rooted in WW1. Regardless - in both wars - ordinary and decent men and women served their country - their 'society' and when they came home they had earned the welfare state which they fought and paid for and which Thatcher did so much to destroy. And - God help us - this damned coalition will finish it off.

[Robert]

Just checking that you weren't thinking of getting the Nazis to address their genocidal issues...a course of anger management for Hitler...

[Limehouse]

Just checking that you weren't thinking of getting the Nazis to address their genocidal issues...a course of anger management for Hitler...

Well Robert - there's something to be said for the theory that if the Germans had not been screwed so hard after WW1 - Hitler would not have had so much impact on the ordianry German people. When times are hard and you are hungry - you look around for someone to blame....

I hope you do not misunderstand my intentions. I am tough on crime but I want to address the causes of criminality for the benefit of all. If we just punish but do not attempt to reform we have no hope of achieving change for the better.

[Robert]

On the other hand, Limehouse, one could argue that a full occupation of Germany in 1918 would have brought home to the Germans that they had actually been beaten, rather than "stabbed in the back" by the "November criminals." When the French occupied the Ruhr in 1923, the situation was quite different because Germany was defenceless by then.

It was a difficult situation, though. Basically Hindenberg, Ludendorff and the Kaiser led the country to disaster, then sodded off and left the civilian government to incur the odium of doing the dirty work.

No, I don't misunderstand you. I may think you naive, but not malicious.

[Natalie Severn]

I have always been very fond of Robert Julie,because he can be very playful.But tonight he is being a bit childish,talking rubbish about Hitler needing "anger management'.Don"t even joke about it Robert! Pity Hitler couldnt have been hung upside down like Mussolini was !

[Robert]

Ah Nats, sometimes it's the most dreadful things that I joke about the most. We each have our own way of handling things.

And who wouldn't smile at "Hitler Sings George Formby"?