Burka

[ChainzCooper]

Yeah, I have never really understood Islam and Muslim culture. From stoning people in public squares to honor killings in the name of your family to declaring fatwahs on people who don't regard Muhammad as all supreme along with countless other things, its just something I've shyed away from. But then again religion isn't really my cup of tea anyways. Regarding the burkas (or whatever they're called I guess thats the right term) there was a woman in the U.S. who sued because she wanted to wear it on her drivers license photograph. Obviously the DMV said she couldn't do it but I think the ACLU backed her saying it violated her civil rights and she won. Maybe I got the story wrong but if I didn't when my license expires I'm wearing a ski mask and all black into the office. 'Everybody stay cool this is a license renewal'
Jordan

[Robert]

Just to balance things, there's a smashing Moslem family whom I know, who would never dream of putting their daughters into burkas. As far as clothes are concerned, from my recollection the family wears western or eastern clothes according to occasion.

It's true that the stonings etc are wrong. I suppose on the plus side you can say that they at least take their religion seriously, as opposed to certain Christians (nearly always of the chattering, establishment variety) who just seem to jump on any passing bandwaggon. If people are going to put their own opinions into the mouth of god, they might as well be honest and cut out the middleman.

My own personal view on morality is, god is entitled to his opinion, and I'm entitled to mine.

[caz]

Caz,
Thanks so much for putting me straight. It is always a distinct pleasure to encounter someone who not only wants to tell people how misguided and offensive they are whilst refusing to actually engage in the real debate or put themselves in any sort of frontline. Your entire response seemed intended to draw me as some sort of BNP sympathising idiot; I don't appreciate it. In fact, frankly, how dare you?
It's very, very easy to sit in the west deploying your nasty little superiority complex, but having spent years in various parts of the middle east and watched the struggles of young women to make something of themselves, only to be stamped on by men who hide behind the cleric's mask, I think I prefer to trust my own judgement on this rather than your vitriol.
Go pick on someone else, Caz. Go put someone else straight about their deficiencies on all matters that you wander past and feel like chipping in to.

And if that gets me banned, then that's just hilarious.

Blimey, I wasn't expecting THAT for showing my sympathy towards the VICTIMS in all this - the women who struggle, as you rightly say, to make something of themselves, only to be stamped on by men etc etc etc.

If you really think I was stamping on YOU for having your little bit of soap box fun down the PUB, then go ahead and turn yourself into a victim if it will help.

And Nats is just pissed off because she can't clear the name of a RAPIST and murderer, who left his DNA all over his victim's knickers. The victim, meanwhile (who is still alive), has had all sorts of filthy mud slung at her. So you can ask Nats all about 'the stoning of adulterous women'. She's an expert at the practice on the A6 thread.

You walked right into that one, Nats.

Love,

Caz
X

[Limehouse]

Blimey, I wasn't expecting THAT for showing my sympathy towards the VICTIMS in all this - the women who struggle, as you rightly say, to make something of themselves, only to be stamped on by men etc etc etc.

If you really think I was stamping on YOU for having your little bit of soap box fun down the PUB, then go ahead and turn yourself into a victim if it will help.

And Nats is just pissed off because she can't clear the name of a RAPIST and murderer, who left his DNA all over his victim's knickers. The victim, meanwhile (who is still alive), has had all sorts of filthy mud slung at her. So you can ask Nats all about 'the stoning of adulterous women'. She's an expert at the practice on the A6 thread.

You walked right into that one, Nats.Love,

Caz
X

You seem to view it as a competition whereby participants try to 'get one over' on each other.

These comments have nothing to do with the arguments on this thread so I will say only that no justice is done to a victim if others are also made victims by a corrupt system. Norma (Nats) has a genuine belief that justice was not done in the A6 case.

[Bob Hinton]

I do sympathise with people who feel they are out of place in western society.

But Limehouse the answer to this dilemma is simple - go back to a society you feel in place, but please don't come to my country and expect everyone here to change their ways just so you don't feel out of place.

I have travelled the world and I would never dream of asking people in other lands to change their ways to suit me.

[Limehouse]

But Limehouse the answer to this dilemma is simple - go back to a society you feel in place, but please don't come to my country and expect everyone here to change their ways just so you don't feel out of place.

I have travelled the world and I would never dream of asking people in other lands to change their ways to suit me.

Hi Bob,

That's fair enough. I can't argue with that. However, some people would say, what about women born here, British Muslims, who decide they want to start wearing the Burka? Also, and I may be opening myself up to a crushing here is the Burka so very different from the dress adopted by some Nuns? I know there's a bit more material covering the face, but the principle is the same - almost - and that is to cover your body because you belong to God. Am I worng?

[Rubyretro]

Before I reply to this question, Limehouse -(and let Bob reply for himself
Obviously I am only speaking for myself)- let me state clearly that I am an Athiest>

I think that there are several important differences between wearing a Burka or a nun's habit, and they are :

-a Christian Nun does not cover her face; we are all mammals and hiding your face is a sign of aggression, because mammals use micro expressions to `read` other mammal`s ntentions

-a Christian Nun is not married( to a human), and she wears a habit from choice; In a different age, where a woman was sent unwillingly to a convent, then I`d agree

-Nuns are part of British History - Burka`s aren`t

ps Caz -house sitting in the Luberon for a few days -this strange computer
has no working `full stops` -please don`t point it out FULL STOP

[Bob Hinton]

Hi Bob,

That's fair enough. I can't argue with that. However, some people would say, what about women born here, British Muslims, who decide they want to start wearing the Burka? Also, and I may be opening myself up to a crushing here is the Burka so very different from the dress adopted by some Nuns? I know there's a bit more material covering the face, but the principle is the same - almost - and that is to cover your body because you belong to God. Am I worng?

In my opinion yes you are wrong and I’ll give you my reasons for saying so. Muslim women who are born here should do their very best to integrate with the majority population, they should act and behave the way the indigenous population do. If they don’t want to embrace our heritage and culture then leave and go to a country where they feel more at home. It really is as simple as that.

If I went to live in a Muslim country and I had a daughter born while I was there, I would not expect the local population to accept her walking round in a bikini simply because that is what she wants to do. She must accept that she is, to all intents and purposes, a guest (probably uninvited) in someone else’s country and should accept they call the shots.

As for this hoary old chestnut about Nuns habits, I would feel exactly the same way if their habits completely covered their face and features. This has nothing about religion, although several Muslim fanatics want it to be, it has everything to do with covering your facial features in a society that finds that offensive. If you are going to say people have the right to wear what they want are you saying it’s alright for me to wear the full regalia of a KKK member?

I was listening to the Moral Maze on radio 4 the other night and they were discussing this problem with the burka and one Muslim kept banging on about it being Islamaphobic as it was an attack on Islam. I wish I was in the studio as I would have reminded him the proposed legislation was to make covering the facial features of anyone an offence. It was he, who kept making it about Muslims because people like him can only operate if they can go around calling everyone racists, unless they feel they are being given a raw deal they don’t want to talk to anyone.

[caz]

You seem to view it as a competition whereby participants try to 'get one over' on each other.

These comments have nothing to do with the arguments on this thread so I will say only that no justice is done to a victim if others are also made victims by a corrupt system. Norma (Nats) has a genuine belief that justice was not done in the A6 case.

There is no 'competition' as far as I'm concerned, Limehouse. If you look back you will see it was Nats who popped in to 'get one over' on me. For some bizarre reason, Claire seemed to think I was victimising her and sympathising with fundamentalist creeps who victimise their women, when I was doing nothing of the sort. Nats saw her "how very dare you" response and thought she would chime in with one of her own, relating to a different topic entirely.

The raped and shot victim in the A6 case has a genuine belief that justice was done in her case, and she was there at the time. So I'm afraid that while Nats can choose to express her own genuine beliefs (at the risk of victimising the victim all over again), she is not the victim here. And I will defend myself against accusations that I have been victimising anyone. It's rather pathetic. There's a perfectly good 'ignore' function for those with paper-thin skins who want to chuck darts without any danger of them rebounding.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

ps Caz -house sitting in the Luberon for a few days -this strange computer
has no working `full stops` -please don`t point it out FULL STOP

I wasn't going to, Rubyretro.

And I too am an atheist, by the way.

If I ever find out that God exists, I will be getting one over on him for his terrible sense of humour.

Love,

Caz
X

[claire]

How tiresome, Caz. You took offence at my choice of words, said that 'words were all very well,' with the implication that it was action that counted, although it certainly wouldn't be coming from you. Then you quoted my statement about having bought an abaya that ended up being used for a hallowe'en party (by my daughter, but that's by the by), and went into an example of a BNP member who had done the same.
Now, if it surprises you that a person might feel offended by that, on the grounds that you are giving the ra-ra-ra for 'the' victims, then perhaps you could ponder a little more on human nature. It's nothing to do with feeling victimised; that would imply that you had some sort of power over me, which is rather funny.
And, as you pointed out in CAPITALS, this is a pub chat, so if Norma wishes to remind you of your similar carry on elsewhere on the boards, isn't that fine, by your rules?
Tiresome.

[Limehouse]

Before I reply to this question, Limehouse -(and let Bob reply for himself
Obviously I am only speaking for myself)- let me state clearly that I am an Athiest>

I think that there are several important differences between wearing a Burka or a nun's habit, and they are :

-a Christian Nun does not cover her face; we are all mammals and hiding your face is a sign of aggression, because mammals use micro expressions to `read` other mammal`s ntentions

-a Christian Nun is not married( to a human), and she wears a habit from choice; In a different age, where a woman was sent unwillingly to a convent, then I`d agree

-Nuns are part of British History - Burka`s aren`t

ps Caz -house sitting in the Luberon for a few days -this strange computer
has no working `full stops` -please don`t point it out FULL STOP

Hi Ruby,

Good points. I agree mostly - but aren't nuns 'brides of Christ?'. I am not sure whether I agree that nuns are also part of British history as they are also found in other countries.

Some Mulsim women wear the Burka from choice. What they say is that it makes them feel more equal because they are judged for what they say and do rather than what they look like. They see it as a kind of liberation. I know that's hard for some of us to understand, but that is what I have been told by some women who wear it.

However, I want to make it clear that I am not supporting the wearing of the Burka outright, I am just putting forward arguments for and against. I am not in favour of women being forced to wear it and I accept completely that covering one's face is totally alien to western ideology but it is important to recognise that we in the west view it from our perspective and those that support the use of the Burka have a different perspective. The problem is really how to accommodate everyone's views and preferecnes in a woprld where people move to different cultures and want to retain their own identity and customes. This is very difficult.

Julie

[Limehouse]

In my opinion yes you are wrong and I’ll give you my reasons for saying so. Muslim women who are born here should do their very best to integrate with the majority population, they should act and behave the way the indigenous population do. If they don’t want to embrace our heritage and culture then leave and go to a country where they feel more at home. It really is as simple as that.

If I went to live in a Muslim country and I had a daughter born while I was there, I would not expect the local population to accept her walking round in a bikini simply because that is what she wants to do. She must accept that she is, to all intents and purposes, a guest (probably uninvited) in someone else’s country and should accept they call the shots.

As for this hoary old chestnut about Nuns habits, I would feel exactly the same way if their habits completely covered their face and features. This has nothing about religion, although several Muslim fanatics want it to be, it has everything to do with covering your facial features in a society that finds that offensive. If you are going to say people have the right to wear what they want are you saying it’s alright for me to wear the full regalia of a KKK member?

I was listening to the Moral Maze on radio 4 the other night and they were discussing this problem with the burka and one Muslim kept banging on about it being Islamaphobic as it was an attack on Islam. I wish I was in the studio as I would have reminded him the proposed legislation was to make covering the facial features of anyone an offence. It was he, who kept making it about Muslims because people like him can only operate if they can go around calling everyone racists, unless they feel they are being given a raw deal they don’t want to talk to anyone.

I completely respect your standpoint Bob and I agree with almost all of it. I heard the Moral Maze too and that chap was a complete pain because he refused to listen to alternative points of view.

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

If I ever find out that God exists, I will be getting one over on him for his terrible sense of humour.

Her terrible sense of humor.....

[Natalie Severn]

It has always seemed a bit tricky this return to these "fundamentalisms" whether its Christian fundamentalism , Hindu fundamentalism, Muslim fundamentalism,Voodoo fundamentalism, you name it.
The world isnt exactly "moving on" much while its dividing itself up into these ferocious sects---I mean we have this wonderful means of communication in language and what do we get?-- a lot of nonsense about going back to our roots and resurrecting the same old religious and linguistic divisions our ancestors annihalated each other over! Isnt it about time we looked for what unites us as human beings and as men and women trying to live together on this overcrowded planet----rather than what divides us from each other ?