On The Trail Of The Forgers

[Victoria]

After all of the processed crap that people have been fed from the diary kitchen,
it's time for some real soul food.
Lies become boring and unsatisfying.
The truth is fresh and tasty.
Won't you try some?

Steve Powell
fri23may2008

Excellent .. it's late and Steve has answered virtually all my post from
Caz, thank you and I do like your last paragraph.

Hi Caz,

you said, "... But if you don't know the answers yourself, you can't know
how his efforts compare with Feldy's"

Caz, I never made any reference comparing Feldmans efforts to Steves
.. as I said before, I know nothing of Feldman.

I would have made a similar comment re the "He will need all this before going into print" ..
it seems obvious that not all books are written in the same way.
Looking at the topic from different angles.

On his beliefs are sincere but crazy/insincere etc ...
Steve is sincere and they are not beliefs, he is quite simply ...
just telling the truth.

Victoria

[Jenni Shelden]

To be clear John, you mean the mythical old hoax theory?

or am i misinterpreting things?

[Steve Powell]

The Serious Mr. Feldman.

Caroline said:
"And my point is why would Feldy have spent the rest of his life,
from the moment he knew that the diary had emerged,
trying to prove who created it, if he had known all along?
He threw everything he had into it, his money, his health, his marriage and ultimately his life."

There is no doubt that Mr. Feldman was serious
about trying to prove to others that Maybrick
was Jack the Ripper.
He had made it his business to do just that.
He had known all along that the diary was a hoax,
as he himself helped in it's creation
and was the chief motivator behind the fraud.
He threw everything into trying to tie together
'false facts' that would 'prove' him correct, nothing else.
The diary had no effect on Feldman's heart,
it was the lies that he had to maintain.

Caroline also said:
"If Steve is doing anything remotely similar, I urge you before it's too late
to advise him against it. I would also humbly submit that it would suggest
that he doesn't know what he thinks he knows."

Thank you for thinking of my health, but I'm fit and healthy, so relax.
To suggest that I don't know what I think I know?
Na. I know exactly what I know and what I think I know
and I know more than you obviously know about what Feldman knew.
What you know Caroline has been told to you by Skinner
and I suggest that he ain't tellin' you all of the facts.

Then she said:
"I don't know Steve personally so I can't comment on whether his beliefs
are sincere but crazy/insincere and crazy/something else entirely."

Yes, somethng else entirely Caroline: the truth.

Then:
"One question you may like to ask Steve: has he worked out the logistics yet of Park
getting the watch to the jewellers shop; getting Albert to buy it just as the diary had attracted a publisher;
and getting Albert's work mate to discover the scratches a year later?
He will need all this before going into print.

I don't need any of that before going into print.
I am not writing the same book that Feldman or Harrison wrote
or that you and Skinner wrote.
I am telling a simple story about Steven Park and his diary.
The lies that started and still flourish in England are not the focus of my book.
I don't give a hoot for the laughing logistics of lying literary lunatics.

After all of the processed crap that people have been fed from the diary kitchen,
it's time for some real soul food.
Lies become boring and unsatisfying.
The truth is fresh and tasty.
Won't you try some?

Steve Powell
fri23may2008

[detective abberline]

Hi. I've been the recipient of Caz's LOL replies and I agree with you absolutely.

[Omlor]

Oh, fun.

Let's start at the end.

Caroline writes, concerning my not having to send her any cash:

I have absolutely no idea what that means.

Then perhaps you should scroll up to the beginning of post 283 above. It was a whole seven posts ago.

Now then, apparently she has Melvin on the brain this morning, but my use of "mythical" had nothing to do with Melvin -- it did have to do with the passing of time and the way, over a long period of time, things acquire the status of myth. Thus my use of the clause "at this point" which seems for some reason to trouble her. But I'm perfectly fine agreeing with her that they have been "mythical" for quite a while.

Then, in another sentence about Melvin, she quotes me as saying that the hoaxers have acquired the status of ancient Greek mythology and asks,

"You mean the mythical modern hoaxers?"

Of course, that's not what I wrote and (strange how this works) therefore that's not what I meant. So the question is easy to answer.

Answer: No, I meant what I wrote.

She then accuses me of blabbing about the secret squirrel evidence which Keith Skinner blabbed about in public despite his not being willing or able to put it forward and despite his not even being willing to explain why he wouldn't use it to support his blabbing about it in public.

Oh, wait.

I see why she has Melvin on her mind this morning.

In any case, of course I happily plead guilty to the charge. Yes, I have been blabbing about Keith's announcing he had evidence that would prove where the diary came from and then not backing that up either with the goods or even with an explanation for why he was withholding the goods.

It was nice of her to notice.

As for the diary and the watch not being at least shown to experts with access to all the latest technologies so that they might tell us what is and is not possible regarding testing (that is, their being for some time now "assiduously kept away" from such people) -- I'll let the record here stand for itself. Fortunately the recent history on this matter is quite clear and no excuses can change it. And if Caroline thinks the tests done by Platt some years ago took advantage of all the latest technologies, she needs to do a bit of research and learn what is available these days. There simply is no excuse for not at least showing these dubious artifacts to professionals now to learn what we can about them.

She finishes by once again changing the words I wrote to other words and then addressing her version rather than mine. Of course, since at that point she is writing to herself about her own words and not mine, there's no need for me to reply to that part.

In the end, of course, there is still nothing new in any of this.

But it did kill a few moments before breakfast.

Off to IHOP,

--John

[caz]

The hoaxers have, at this point, indeed become "mythical."

What do you mean 'at this point'? They were mythical for Melvin in the end; they remain mythical for you today. How do you expect anyone else to change that for you?

Perhaps because the "ongoing investigation" has been "ongoing" for so long now without producing a single comprehensive and supported theory that the hoaxers have acquired the status of ancient Greek mythology.

You mean the mythical modern hoaxers - the sames ones Melvin the self-proclaimed hoax buster spent forever 'producing' but failed?

Or perhaps because the secret evidence being blabbed about but never shown to the public has left the hoaxers comfortably in the shadows of myth.

Evidence mentioned once by the one person at liberty to make such an announcement, and in answer to a specific question, and blabbed about by you ever since, even though you played no part in financing the research or doing anything constructive yourself, and have no clue what there is out there and what has been learned in the process? Tough. You'll just have to wait in line then, won't you?

Or perhaps because the diary they hoaxed and the watch they hoaxed have been, by their owners, assiduously kept away from scientists who have access to the latest technologies so that they might at least determine what is and is not currently possible concerning dating both artifacts.

Or perhaps because, despite all the tests to date, there is still no indication that your modern hoaxers are anything other than mythical?

What do you mean by 'assiduously kept away'? That implies artful test dodging by owners who dare not let the scientists near. If anyone had provided either owner with a viable, ready financed, non-destructive testing proposal, and they had refused, you'd have a leg to stand on. As it is, Albert did all he could afford to do in the early days, and nobody has offered to test the watch again for him. And now he is selling it. So how the hell is any of this 'assiduously keeping it away' from anyone?

The diary was tested in recent years by Dr Platt. But what the hell was the point, since in John-speak this means it was 'assiduously kept away from scientists who have access to the latest technologies'?

Yes, there are a myriad of reasons that nothing has really changed in so very many years here in Diary World and why the hoaxers have been allowed to become the stuff of myths.

You mean the mythical modern hoaxers, who are allowed to remain the stuff of myths, because only you could make a reality out of a myth, but you expect others to do the impossible for you? I agree.

But then that would make it just the one reason why nothing has changed. Not a myriad reasons. (I assume 'myriad of' is Florida slang or something.)

At least I'm apparently not sending any cash to Caroline,

--John

I have absolutely no idea what that means. But if you don't know who you are sending cash to and who you aren't, all I can say is no wonder you were so easily duped by Mike Barrett.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Now my point is this, why would he spend his time chasing up something that
would never bear fruit?

Hi Victoria,

And my point is why would Feldy have spent the rest of his life, from the moment he knew that the diary had emerged, trying to prove who created it, if he had known all along? He threw everything he had into it, his money, his health, his marriage and ultimately his life.

If Steve is doing anything remotely similar, I urge you before it's too late to advise him against it. I would also humbly submit that it would suggest that he doesn't know what he thinks he knows. Do you know from personal experience what hours Steve has been putting in, chasing things up? What money he is spending? What specific research he is doing? What evidence he hopes to find? I'm not asking you or Steve to tell me. If he's working on a book I respect that totally, and will happily wait for someone else to buy it and reveal all. But if you don't know the answers yourself, you can't know how his efforts compare with Feldy's.

I don't know Steve personally so I can't comment on whether his beliefs are sincere but crazy/insincere and crazy/something else entirely.

Feldy, I know, was not crazy. Obsessed, blinkered, on a mission, mistaken, misguided, you name it. But not crazy enough to set out on a self-destructive mission to prove the diary was written in 1888 if he had a hand in creating it himself.

One question you may like to ask Steve: has he worked out the logistics yet of Park getting the watch to the jewellers shop; getting Albert to buy it just as the diary had attracted a publisher; and getting Albert's work mate to discover the scratches a year later? He will need all this before going into print. So people may have to anticipate a rather long wait for his book.

Love,

Caz
X

[Victoria]

Hi Caz,

I can see that someone, say like Feldman may look for
'so called evidence' .. in an attempt to give support/credibility
to something he was trying to promote or prove a providence for.
Say a bit like a debater using whatever information/facts to turn
the arguement his way.
This makes sense to me.

However,

I was not referring to Feldy, of that I know nothing.
I was making a point, that I know that Steve is making great
efforts to find actual proof of what we both know, and that is .. that
Steven Park started the diary.
Hopefully his efforts will be fruitful .. for all concerned, and an end to this
saga.
Now my point is this, why would he spend his time chasing up something that
would never bear fruit?
He is not here talking of it, so that you may believe him, or think more
of his story.
He most certainly has not told me to say this, and probably will not like what I am doing ..
but I feel I have to try to explain what I started.

I cannot relate this to my above paragraph, re 'my ideas' on a possible
Feldman scenario .. because Steve's research is specific .. not just
something to 'fit in or help'.
Put simply .. if I told you that Steve Powell wrote the diary, and I know I made that up,
would I not be crazy, if I looked for actual proof somewhere,
that I know did not exist? To what end? And when no one is even watching?

Hope you can see my point of view here Caz,
Victoria

[Omlor]

The hoaxers have, at this point, indeed become "mythical."

Perhaps because the "ongoing investigation" has been "ongoing" for so long now without producing a single comprehensive and supported theory that the hoaxers have acquired the status of ancient Greek mythology.

Or perhaps because the secret evidence being blabbed about but never shown to the public has left the hoaxers comfortably in the shadows of myth.

Or perhaps because the diary they hoaxed and the watch they hoaxed have been, by their owners, assiduously kept away from scientists who have access to the latest technologies so that they might at least determine what is and is not currently possible concerning dating both artifacts.

Yes, there are a myriad of reasons that nothing has really changed in so very many years here in Diary World and why the hoaxers have been allowed to become the stuff of myths.

I'm sure that surprises no one.

At least I'm apparently not sending any cash to Caroline,

--John

[caz]

Hi Victoria,

Love the way you put the word experts in quote marks. Quite right too - there are no real experts when it comes to the diary’s true origins.

(Just on that point, why would someone go to such lengths,
trying to find 'physical' proof, if you knew you were lying ..
that would be crazy.)

Does it not occur to you that this is exactly what Steve wants everyone to believe about Paul Feldman? We are asked to believe that Feldy went to quite extraordinary lengths, trying to find proof for his belief that the diary was genuine, apparently knowing all the time he was lying because he had been instrumental in creating it in the late 20th century.

So if you think the lengths to which Steve has been going would make it crazy in his case, you need to multiply it by about a thousand to get anywhere near the craziness in Feldy’s case.

If you can believe it about Feldy, then you’d better start believing it about Steve too.

If you can’t believe it about Feldy (and at the moment I think it’s just you and Maria who are even entertaining such a crazy idea), then you’d better start questioning everything else Steve has been claiming.

Meanwhile, I'm more than happy to let Omlor say it like it is:

The hoaxers are "mythical"

Love,

Caz
X

[Victoria]

not crazy

So ...
after all of the above, and what has gone before ...
the name of this thread is still very relevant,
On The Trail Of The Forgers

It seems agreed by the 'experts' here and the ordinary folk,
that it was not the real James Maybrick,

and,

"The hoaxers/forgers are mythical .. at least until someone
provides evidence linking them to the diary's origins".

So if Steve, who by the way, really is telling the truth,
can find the 'evidence link' ....
(I know that he is trying his best to do so)
(Just on that point, why would someone go to such lengths,
trying to find 'physical' proof, if you knew you were lying ..
that would be crazy.)
.. then it will be case solved, game over ...
what shall we do next ?..
have a drink ..
or a mineral water ..
or just go home.

"This is the most positive I have ever felt about this thread".
(in the words of Caz)

Victoria

[Omlor]

If Caroline Morris can show me one post I have ever written here or anywhere else during all the years I have been posting where I have specifically blamed anyone or even seriously accused anyone in particular of hoaxing the diary or the watch, I'll happily send her a hundred dollars cash.

Of course, she can't.

So nothing I have written here lately, including saying that I don't know who actually wrote the words in the diary, is in any way a departure from what I have been writing all along.

I do, by the way, know who did not write those words. The real James Maybrick.

Of course, nothing at all is new in any case. We still have people like Steve Powell and IKJ and Keith Skinner, all of whom claim in public to have evidence concerning the diary's origins but who won't present it to the public (for reasons that remain unclear).

In fact, now that I think about it, Steve actually hasn't claimed to have any evidence. He just says he knows who did it.

It's only Keith and old IKJ who claim in public to have the secret goods that would tell us all about where the diary came from but who refuse to put up the goods.

I'm glad if all of that gives Caroline a positive feeling.

But it's still the same old game.

--John

PS: To be fair, I think at two different points I did accuse Chris George and Martin Fido of writing the diary. But other than that...

[caz]

Of course, Caroline is right about this much... The hoaxers are "mythical" -- at least until someone provides evidence linking them to the diary's origins.

Hi Graham,

Do you think John is finally getting the message, concerning everyone who has been blamed over the years for hoaxing the diary - or watch (and everyone who has claimed over the years to know who hoaxed either of them)?

This is the most positive I have ever felt about this thread.

Love,

Caz
X

[Graham]

Graham,

I honestly don't know.

--John

John,

Well, you can't be fairer than that. An honest answer to a straight question.

I'm almost beginning to like you...

Nah!

Graham

[Omlor]

Graham,

I honestly don't know.

--John