EU Vote

[Magpie]

I watched almost every minute of the vote count. Gripping stuff.

Of course my hometown was one of the last to release the numbers, and had the most wishy-washy result of all of them 50.6 to 49.4 for stay.

[Graham]

From the mid-1970's to when I retired in 2011 I spent considerable time in Europe and also the USA, connected with what I did for a living. In America, I was (nearly) always accepted both business-wise and socially, and made good friends amongst the Yanks, who always seemed interested in what life was like in Britain, and discussing in a very matey way the differences between our two countries. I was there for nearly four years, but came back here when the world economic situation worsened around 1980, and I thought I'd rather be out of work in my own country than somewhere else.

In Europe (mostly Germany and France) I never felt really comfortable or even welcome most of the time. The Germans seemed to consider we Brits as idle and ill-disciplined buggers, whilst the French gave me the very distinct impression that they think we are uncivilised and simply beyond the pale and can't even make good cheese. No way did I ever feel, nor could I consider myself, 'European' in any sense. Not that I didn't have some good times and meet good people in both countries, but I never considered living in either of them. I am not particularly xenophobic, but I am somewhat patriotic and it hurt a little to be given the general impression that many Europeans consider us worthless.

When we went into the EEC, quite a few Americans remarked to me that they thought it an odd thing for Britain to do, considering that we were at war with some of them twice in a lifetime. My old boss in the USA told me he could never figure out why Britain never made closer economic ties with America, and I agreed with him.

Anyway, it's done now. And if anyone should think that the result of the Referendum was nothing to do with uncontrolled EU-policy immigration, let them think again. I'm now wondering which EU country will be the next to have a referendum - I think I might wander down to Coral's later and see what sort of odds I can get!

Graham

[Karl]

Can you give some examples, Karl?

Well, "ignorant" and "left behind" from your list is just as much used by the right as well. Then you have "naive", "sell-outs", "libtards", "communists/marxists", "social justice warriors", "self-hating", that liberals have an "agenda of cultural marxism" because, apparently, they "hate our heritage/culture", that liberals are "committing ethnic/cultural suicide", the more than heavily implied notion that "they only want criminal immigrants, whereas we would accept only the educated, hard working kind" (just read the comment section of any news article pertaining to crime committed by someone with an immigrant background). I've also heard "Quislings" from the more fanatical variety.

And, of course, conservatives consider themselves rational - doesn't everybody? No one admits to being irrational, surely? In addition to that, conservatives also proclaim to want the best for the country (as if liberals don't), to be tolerant and inclusive but still have a head on their shoulders ("we're not Islamophobic, we are merely critical of Islam" (now read conservative reactions as Sadiq Khan was elected mayor of London)).

Both sides of the conservative/liberal spectrum could learn from each other: using stereotypical slurs just makes you look like a twat to the opposition, and will serve your own cause nothing as you will convince no one but those who already agree with you. But will they? Unlikely.

[Svensson]

You may be surprised, PCDunn, in terms of what English people are really like.

No one I know is interested in the British Empire. In fact, I'm scratching my head thinking when was the last time I heard an English person mention the words British Empire? I genuinely can't remember hearing those words. You'll find it mentioned more by foreigners on message boards. Not that it's anything to do with a sense of guilt, more that it's just irrelevant.

A bit like people suggesting that the Germans want to rule Europe, lol

[Robert]

Hi Karl

Oh, I agree that there have been insults flying back and forth faster than Henry Kissinger on a diplomatic mission. But what I meant was specifically pro-remain journalists (and I guess other 'opinion formers') referring to ordinary leavers (the ones whose votes they were presumably trying to influence) in derogatory terms. Maybe the reverse has happened, I don't know. I've tended to read the remain articles rather than the leave articles because I wanted to see what the opposition were saying.

I would suggest that calling someone a Marxist or a Communist is, in the eyes of most people, much less of an insult than calling them fascist or Nazi or racist. It may be true that Marxists and Communists have murdered more people than Nazis have, but in terms of sheer abuse it is much worse to be called a Nazi.

[Wickerman]

I don't seriously see Britain having any problem on the economic front, they are after all the 5th largest economy, aside from Germany the other three are not in the EU either.
It's probably a good thing in the long run.

What I do see as more of a concern is the fall out within Britain because of this. Britain may end up doing more harm to themselves by breaking up than could ever be done by opting out of the EU.

So the Union Jack may be nearing it's end if Scotland have another referendum.

[Robert]

Hi Jon

Well, that's the essence of being a nation : everyone hangs together. If the Scots feel that their loyalties and interests lie with Europe rather than the UK, then they must be allowed to leave. That's democracy. The only thing that puzzles me is, why would they want independence from the UK, only to hand themselves over to Brussels. But as the Americans say, go figure.

[Robert]

I see that the Liberal Establishment have immediately swung into action to try to nullify the result. People have been found who claim that they only voted leave as a protest vote - they didn't really want to leave. Funny, but I've never heard of a byelection being re-run because the victor won owing to protest votes. And over the years since 1975, plenty of people have said that they thought they were voting for a common market, and wouldn't have voted to stay in if they'd known what the European project was about. But that was all brushed aside.

There is a petition to hold a second referendum. What's more, the pro-remain majority in Parliament has been urged to ignore the result.

The smear tactics have continued as normal. Apparently the people in Europe cheering the result have been 'far right' parties. And - horror of horrors - there are fears that the EU may disintegrate under a domino effect. But hang on a minute : do these 'far right' parties represent a majority of the voters in their countries, or don't they? If they do, well, that's democracy. If they don't, then what a wonderful opportunity it would be for the countries of Europe to reaffirm their faith in the EU.

I'm thinking that there may be referendums in the EU to come. Maybe a lot of referendums. But I'm sure there will be the right result in the end.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

Well, that's the essence of being a nation : everyone hangs together. If the Scots feel that their loyalties and interests lie with Europe rather than the UK, then they must be allowed to leave. That's democracy. The only thing that puzzles me is, why would they want independence from the UK, only to hand themselves over to Brussels. But as the Americans say, go figure.

Hello Robert.

I follow the BBC World News here in Canada and they are reporting that other European nations, France, Denmark?, etc. are scared of the same thing happening in their countries. Scared of letting the people vote for themselves???
How is this democracy?

One British politician has suggested that "this is the result of letting the people vote", that they do not understand the issues enough to have a vote!!!
I sometimes wonder if 'Democracy' is a flag waved purely as a publicity exercise, that politicians are generally loathed the let the people speak.

[Wickerman]

Anyway, it's done now. And if anyone should think that the result of the Referendum was nothing to do with uncontrolled EU-policy immigration, let them think again. I'm now wondering which EU country will be the next to have a referendum - I think I might wander down to Coral's later and see what sort of odds I can get!

Graham

I know there are a wide number of issues behind this Brexit vote, but I think, as you suggested above, that the idea of waves of foreigners entering Britain under the EU open-door policy is a major factor.
I grew up in England when Enoch Powell was pushing for restricted immigration, there has always been a ground-swell of opinion along that score in England, now it has surfaced as never before.

None of this may have happened if the World powers had moved against Hasad in the first place.
I see the widespread migration of Syrians because of Hasad's policies as being the spark that led to this Brexit vote, in an indirect fashion of course.

Every country must retain the right to control it's own borders, and no country should be required to adopt laws and policies created in some 'foreign' (EU) board-room.

[Robert]

Hi Jon

Yes indeed, they don't like democracy.

I would suggest that the ideal course, to minimise uncertainty, would be to have an EU-wide referendum on the same day, with voters choosing whether they want their countries to stay or leave.

[John Wheat]

I voted to remain. However the people have spoken and any talk of a second referendum is bullshit. I expect Britain to leave the EU as soon as possible.

[Robert]

That's fair enough, John.

[Graham]

As I understand it, the 'Common Market' was devised basically to prevent further war breaking out between continental European nations, and to make everyone feel as though they were part of a whole the interchange of commerce was developed. If I remember correctly, Britain first applied to join in 1961 when MacMillan was PM, and we didn't get in until de Gaulle was dead and buried. He despised Britain, even though we won his country back for him, and was not prepared to permit us to be part of his club. As I said in an earlier post, I never felt 'European' and I think that probably goes for the greater part of the population of these Isles. But Ted Heath made it is life's ambition to get us in, and in we went. OK, membership of the EU has been swings and roundabouts: good, bad and plain bloody silly sometimes, but I do ask myself what real, lasting benefit we got out of it.

Graham

[Robert]

As I understand it, the 'Common Market' was devised basically to prevent further war breaking out between continental European nations

Diplomatically put, Graham. I don't think they were too worried about the Belgians attacking the Dutch, or France attacking Luxembourg.