The attack on Swedish housewife Mrs Meike Dalal on Thursday, September 7th 1961

[Natalie Severn]

They are snippets from Paul Foot's book and are extracts from the trial itself and refer to Hanratty's memory of his digs in Rhyl.However they are not the most revealing of Swanwick's cross questioning which covers three or four pages of Paul Foot's book but hint at the verbal onslaught technique Swanwick used at the trial to overwhelm the witness which appears to throw and confuse the person being cross questioned and did the trick with Mrs Jones who left court in tears but simply perplexed Hanratty who became confused at the start but toughened up as it progressed.

[Natalie Severn]

trying next size up of Hanratty dictating whereabouts of Ingledene etc to Kleinman-just checked and its much better

[Spitfire]

Grace Jones did not get to Bedford until after Hanratty had finished his evidence. Blaming Hanratty's failure to mention that he slept in a room with a bath on Mr Swanwick's treatment of Mrs Jones is therefore a nonsense.

Anyhow, Hanratty did not mention in the note taken by his solicitor that he stayed in two rooms, one of them being the bathroom. Nor did he mention this when giving his evidence in chief when questioned by Sherrard.

The taking of the note by Kleinman and the evidence in chief both occurred before Hanratty's cross-examination by Swanwick, and before Grace Jones gave her evidence.

Hanratty did not mention that he slept in a room with a bath. He said that his room was a back room on the second floor which had a sink (according to Kleinman's note) and curtains which he did not bother to close.

[NickB]

the verbal onslaught technique Swanwick used ... simply perplexed Hanratty

I don’t think Hanratty did any better with the ‘friendly’ questioning from Sherrard. They’d had 9 days to prepare how to present to the court the change of alibi and this was the result ...

Sherrard: “Just explain it in your own words.”

Hanratty: "My Lord, at this stage I read in the papers that the police wanted to interview me in a murder which took place. One article I remember reading stated that this man Ryan might have shared the same hotel as the murderer for that trial. That was in one paper. That was before I went to Liverpool, my Lord. On the first occasion when I rang Supt Acott he was thoroughly interested to know my whereabouts on the 22nd and 23rd of August. I was a little bit confused myself with seeing my name in the papers knowing that my mother, father and brother were looking for me. I knew in myself that I did not commit this crime so I tried to help in every way I could to help Supt Acott when he asked me where I was on the 22nd and 23rd of August. At that stage I knew I was only wanted for interviewing, not for the actual A6 murder charge which I eventually found out later or the truth would have been told straightaway. I know I made a terrible mistake by telling Supt Acott about these three men, but I have been advised that the truth only counts in this matter, and might I say here every word of that is the truth."

[Graham]

Oh yes he did pal.

He said that he couldn't remember the exact date but that it was before he went away on holiday on the 26th August!

You really ought to get your facts straight against the evidence given in this case!

You likewise, pal!

The fact is that interesting though Mr Kempt's evidence is, it brings us no nearer to establishing that it was Hanratty he saw at the billiard hall on the 22nd August - which is what Hanratty was trying to show.

[Graham]

Hi Nats,

I assume the pages from Kleinmann's note-book are for my benefit. I can decipher a good deal of the LH page, but very little of the RH page. Can you post a 'translation' of this typical lawyer's hand-writing? Thanks.

What I actually said in my post was:

1] Ingledene was not identified by Hanratty. Joe Gillbanks and his oppo were door-knocking in Rhyl, and when they arrived out of the blue at Ingledene Mrs Jones said she thought she remembered a young man looking for digs about the critical time, but couldn't be precise. As the defence were by now clutching at straws, this was good enough for them to act on.

I was implying, as I think you are aware, that Hanratty didn't exactly supply his defence with the name and address and Ingledene; rather, he supplied them with some details of what he claimed to remember of his night or two in Rhyl.

With reference to more recent posts, above, I am certain that, with the aid of Terry Evans, Joe Gillbanks went around Rhyl calling on B&B's until they came across Mrs Jones who, as I said, thought she remembered a young man looking for digs, and who also, she thought, may have been the young man in the (one) photo that Gillbanks showed her. It's a pity that Hanratty neither signed the visitors' book nor requested a receipt; had he done so, we wouldn't be discussing him.

Frankly, there is now so much confusion regarding what Hanratty said or did not say about the B&B in which he claimed to have stayed that it's difficult to filter facts from surmise. Personally, I am quite confident that he was never in Ingledene when he claimed.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Grace Jones did not get to Bedford until after Hanratty had finished his evidence. Blaming Hanratty's failure to mention that he slept in a room with a bath on Mr Swanwick's treatment of Mrs Jones is therefore a nonsense.

Agreed but this was dealt with about 6 hours ago Spitfire....keep up!

[QUOTE/ ] Hanratty did not mention that he slept in a room with a bath. He said that his room was a back room on the second floor which had a sink (according to Kleinman's note) and curtains which he did not bother to close.

According to Kleinman's notes if you read them carefully he does not talk about curtains or 'his' room .In Kleinman's notes that I posted this afternoon Hanratty simply describes the house having a green bath and the bedroom having a sink. All the details about the house are correct btw .

It is under Swanwick's cross questioning that Hanratty becomes shaken by his very manner of questioning and appears to fully realise the intention is in fact to hang him ---just as we found him on 29th January frightened and confessing to his barrister Michael Sherrard that he actually took the bus to Rhyl which was standing outside Lime Street Station / opposite the Billiard Hall where he had tried to sell a watch and went for a pee [according to Mr Kempt etc ]. Verbatim notes from the trial can be read in Paul Foot's book when Hanratty is asked in very specific detail by an aggressive and sneering Swanwick whose aim appears to be to unnerve and confuse Hanratty .....a batch of similar bullying tactics which were all employed as part of his strategy to break down witnesses and which of course proved successful in the case of Mrs Jones.

[Spitfire]

It is under Swanwick's cross questioning that Hanratty becomes shaken by his manner of questioning and appears to fully realise the intention is in fact to hang him ---just as we found him on 29th January frightened and confessing to his barrister Michael Sherrard that he actually took the bus to Rhyl which was standing outside Lime Street Station / opposite the Billiard Hall where he had tried to sell a watch and went for a pee [according to Mr Kempt]. Verbatim notes from the trial can be read in Paul Foot's book when Hanratty is asked in very specific detail by an aggressive and sneering Swanwick whose aim appears to be to unnerve and confuse Hanratty .....a batch of similar bullying tactics which were all part of his strategy to break down witnesses and which of course proved successful in the case of Mrs Jones.

No!!!

Hanratty dropped the Rhyl alibi bombshell on his lawyers before he gave his evidence.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Graham.I posted the notes and found that casebook insist on fairly small files.I will try to translate them certainly but may not manage to immediately as have a big Marxism conference every day this weekend until Monday night Graham and have to prepare for them.Best nx

[Spitfire]

Yes Nick .I realised after I had posted it.Nevertheless Hanratty endured similar aggressive questioning from Swanwick on the 7th February which was just before the guest house with the green bath had been located in Rhyl and just before Mrs Jones agreed to be a defence witness.

This still does not explain why Hanratty did not mention in his examination in chief that (1) he stayed in two rooms and (2) the first room was the bathroom with the green bath.

[Spitfire]

According to Kleinman's notes if you read them carefully he does not talk about curtains or 'his' room .In Kleinman's notes that I posted this afternoon Hanratty simply describes the house having a green bath and the bedroom having a sink. All the details about the house are correct btw .

So when Hanratty gave his evidence in chief he was lying about the curtains?

[Natalie Severn]

No!!!

Hanratty dropped the Rhyl alibi bombshell on his lawyers before he gave his evidence.

Quite right but I have already discussed this for goodness sake today with Nick and corrected what I previously wrote regarding specific dates. Look , when I talk about Swanwick and his approach I do not necessarily mean this only in relation to Hanratty.Hanratty was in the dock throughout the trial and was able to observe the way in which Swanwick operated and it frightened him viz: page 219 of Foot : Yet in spite of the previous damage done to his case by the previous lies ,he could not contemplate going into the witness box in front of Swanwick and telling a story he knew to be false .He therefore insisted ,if he was to give evidence ,that he told the Rhyl story to the court.

[Natalie Severn]

Yes Graham, here is the text you wanted that is written on the same page as the map drawn from Hanratty's description and pointing the way to the house in which he stayed:
"There was a picture house on the main road going towards a bridge[hump-backed] with a rail ."

This is spot on -the picture house is still there as is the humped back bridge with the rail all at the end of Kinmel Street Rhyl.
Hope this is OK -the map id quite roughly drawn but it represents the above adequately.nx

[Spitfire]

Quite right but I have already discussed this for goodness sake today with Nick and corrected what I previously wrote regarding specific dates. Look , when I talk about Swanwick and his approach I do not necessarily mean this only in relation to Hanratty.Hanratty was in the dock throughout the trial and was able to observe the way in which Swanwick operated and it frightened him viz: page 219 of Foot : Yet in spite of the previous damage done to his case by the previous lies ,he could not contemplate going into the witness box in front of Swanwick and telling a story he knew to be false .He therefore insisted ,if he was to give evidence ,that he told the Rhyl story to the court.

But why did he not tell Sherrard or Kleinman that he, Hanratty, had stayed in the Rhyl guest house and occupied two rooms, the first of which was the bathroom with the green bath?

In fact he told Sherrard in his evidence in chief that the room he stayed in had curtains which he did not bother to close. When Hanratty gave that evidence Swanwick had not then cross-examined any witnesses in the case.

[Natalie Severn]

So when Hanratty gave his evidence in chief he was lying about the curtains?

Lies ? Oh yes-and theft going on in court in front of the judge - but by the prosecution in particular they got well up the nose of the judge !!! viz- by the prosecution [/B] lying and stealing books from people's houses in order to deceive and frighten a witness.

anyway
my own belief is that Hanratty paid first for one room and then another! I do believe he did sleep in the attic room which had a bed in it -that was on the first night and on the second night he was able to take room number one about which his bedroom description fits.Moreover I believe it was exactly as Mrs Jones said at the trial:
viz
Swanwick : You said that the bathroom was kept only for the family.

Mrs Jones:Yes,but there are some -they come to the door and they cannot get anywhere and we show them the bathroom and say ,"We have only the bathroom to let ;we show it to them and if they agree to take it,well it is up to them to take it.We do not press them to take it. [VolXVI ,pp.51,52]
Mrs Jones was supported by the judge at one point who exploded with rage at Swanwick who had very underhandedly got someone to go to Mrs Jones' house behind her back and steal her B&B books from Ingledene - and then present them to her in court as a shock tactic .The judge was outraged by this tactic as well as Swanwick's theft of the books and his lie and deception about it [page 227/228 Foot ] - pretending to Mrs Jones in front of the entire court that he thought Mrs Jones had brought her books with her etc etc .That may have been the last straw for the judge and indeed it was a vile trick to play on anybody coming to court to be a witness but it was an especially dirty trick to lie about and steal books from a defence witness's house as the judge rightly condemned