The attack on Swedish housewife Mrs Meike Dalal on Thursday, September 7th 1961

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats,



1] Mr Kempt the billiard-hall manager did NOT remember Hanratty at all. He gave a description of a young man which might possibly have been similar to that of Hanratty, but I do not believe that Mr Kempt was shown any photos for the purposes of identification. Also, Mr Kempt is not specifica about the date he saw this young man - all he says is that 'one evening when I was standing at the door a young fellow in his early twenties came to me and asked if I wanted to buy a watch'.

Graham

Graham
The billiard Hall manager remembered the incident quite clearly.He not only remembered the man asking him if he wanted to buy a gold watch-[which was reported in the Liverpool echo btw during the trial-prompting Mr Dutton's memory as he read about the trial in Bedford ,of a similar occasion when a young man in Rhyl asked him too buy a gold watch-checking it later he discovered this was on Wednesday 23rd August 1961 -his Barclay's bank statements confirmed it- he went to Barclays Bank just two times a year from Kinmel Bay]
Returning to Mr Kempt; Mr Kempt recalled ,'the young man made to go up to the Billiard Hall' ---but he 'barred him' saying they were licensed premises."What difference does that make?" asked Hanratty. Mr Kempt replied ,"It makes a lot of difference.I don't want you to go upstairs with it."[In the end he allowed Hanratty to go up to have a pee.] Mr Kempt remembered the incident happened in August about 5 or 6 days before he went on holiday which was on the 26th August 1961.

[Graham]

Mrs Grace Jones was also a very decent woman who kept an exemplary guest house despite Swanwick 's disgraceful comments about her book keeping and an attack on her about them which caused the books that the prosecution had taken [without her knowledge as I understand] -from her guest house, to fall to pieces on the ground.Her good character is vouched for by her friend ,the owner of a well run still thriving printing shop across the road in Kinmel Street .Mrs Grace Jones is of crucial importance in my view because her house answered every description Hanratty gave to his solicitor after Sherrard had left the room upset at Hanratty changing his alibi during a critical point in his trial at Bedford hundreds of miles from Rhyl .Hanratty under severe stress as moments later Kleinman wrote rapid notes as Hanratty dictated what he could remember about a house you entered directly from the street , a green bath at the top ,hearing the noise of railways from his room , the paved courtyard at the back what he had paid and he assisted in a sketch which showed Kinmel Street leading to a cinema and a hump backed bridge-both still there .Hanratty stayed with Mrs Jones on the night of 22nd August. He was seen the very next day by Trevor Dutton-once a customer of the printshop and greatly respected in Kinmel Bay where he held posts of responsibility in the community.And as you well know there were 8 or 9 other people who remembered seeing Hanratty that night in Rhyl.No witnesses saw Hanratty in either London or Buckinghamshire or Slough or anywhere else in the South of England.

Nats,

Mrs Jones, bless her, could have been Saint Cecilia for all I care about her decency and honesty - the bald fact is that like Mrs Dinwoody she was simply mistaken. I've lost count of the number of times this has been debated on these forums, but:

1] Ingledene was not identified by Hanratty. Joe Gillbanks and his oppo were door-knocking in Rhyl, and when they arrived out of the blue at Ingledene Mrs Jones said she thought she remembered a young man looking for digs about the critical time, but couldn't be precise. As the defence were by now clutching at straws, this was good enough for them to act on.

2] Hanratty's description of Mrs Jones was not accurate.

3] As with good Mrs Dinwoodie, good Mrs Jones was shown just one photo - that of Hanratty. This on its own is enough to throw her testimony into serious doubt, same as Mrs Dinwoodie. Sheer incompetence, given what was at stake, i.e., a man's life.

4] All Mrs Jones said was that she had a feeling that she remembered the man in the photo. Mmm, very precise. Even in court, when she was asked if she recognised the defendant, James Hanratty, she could only say, "I am almost sure". Are you getting the flavour of this yet, Nats?

5] Swanwick said to her that "it wouldn't be quite right for you to say that you recognised the man in the photo, would it"? And Mrs Jones replied, "Well, no".

6] She said she was muddled about the colour of Hanratty's hair, but in fact it was Terry Jones who told her that the reason she was not too sure about identifying Hanratty in court was the colour of his hair. After which they both got a good bollocking off the judge for being seen talking together during a recess. Naughty.

7] Hanratty said there was a 'green plant in a bowl in the hall' at Ingledene. There was not. There was a vase containing artificial flowers.

8] The legendary 'green bath'. Hanratty in court said it was 'at the top of the house, I would say the attic'. He then added, 'But it might not have been the attic'. (Some time ago, when you were absent from these boards, Nats, the lady who now actually lives in Ingledene posted. Well worth having a look at).

9] Hanratty never said he slept in a room containing a green bath; he said he slept in another room.

10] The famous green bath was in a room marked PRIVATE (and I think still is) and could not be seen from the landing even when the door was open. It is clear that Hanratty was using his experience of other B&B's and guest-houses to construct what he hoped would be a believable description of Ingledene.

11] The other guests who were at Ingledene on the nights of 22 and 23 August were all traced by the police, and not one of them could remember seeing anyone who even resembled James Hanratty.

Nats, I'm under absolutely no illusion that what I've written (for the nth time, it seems) will have any affect at all upon your reading of the the A6 Case and the behaviour of James Hanratty during and after it. But there you are: I try.

Graham

[Graham]

She was not mistaken.She originally told [prosecution]police that she saw Hanratty-on the Tuesday. It was only later she said it must have been Monday after all the cross questioning etc because her granddaughter was only with her helping to serve on the Monday - not on the Tuesday.But then the granddaughter and her friend remembered that was not entirely correct and they reminded her and told police that they were back from shopping in Central Liverpool and at her shop by 4pm on the TUESDAY and even more importantly that Barbara had even sold lollipops to some children while her friend was there as she had the day before.

She certainly was mistaken, Nats.

Graham

[Graham]

Mr Kempt remembered the incident happened in August about 5 or 6 days before he went on holiday which was on the 26th August 1961.
Quick reply to this message

No he didn't, Nats. Mr Kempt actually said, "I have no idea of the day, date or month, except that it was in the evening time".

And anyway, Mr Kempt said that his habit was to stand on the steps outside the billiard hall for a breath of fresh air any time between 6.00 and 7.30pm
Hanratty maintained that he caught the bus to Rhyl at 6.00pm.

Hanratty told his defence that 'the man outside the billiards hall in Lime Street is always there, he stands on the steps". Mr Kempt went on holiday on 26th August; Hanratty was definitely in Liverpool on 24th August, so it is extremely likely that what he referred to, his encounter with Mr Kempt, happened then.

Graham

[moste]

Item3 from Grahams post:] As with good Mrs Dinwoodie, good Mrs Jones was shown just one photo - that of Hanratty. This on its own is enough to throw her testimony into serious doubt, same as Mrs Dinwoodie. Sheer incompetence, given what was at stake, i.e., a man's life.
This is correct. And how much sheer incompetence do we need to point out to convince people that James Hanratty was stitched up.

[Graham]

Item3 from Grahams post:] As with good Mrs Dinwoodie, good Mrs Jones was shown just one photo - that of Hanratty. This on its own is enough to throw her testimony into serious doubt, same as Mrs Dinwoodie. Sheer incompetence, given what was at stake, i.e., a man's life.
This is correct. And how much sheer incompetence do we need to point out to convince people that James Hanratty was stitched up.

Well now, Mr Moste. In the case of Mrs Dinwoodie, it was a representative of the law, a DC Pugh of Liverpool Police, who showed Mrs D just the one photo of our Jim.

In the case of Mrs Jones, it was a representative of Hanratty's defence-team, one Mr Joseph Gillbanks, who made a similar mistake on 6 February 1962.

So I take it from this that you reckon Hanratty was stitched up by his own defence-team??? I'd read some books on the case, if I were you.

Graham

[Spitfire]

Would a jury have convicted Hanratty if Alphon had given his Paris interview earlier?

And would Alphon have given his Paris interview if the jury had not convicted Hanratty?

[cobalt]

And would Alphon have given his Paris interview if the jury had not convicted Hanratty?

He'd have been taking one hell of a chance!

I appreciate that any nutter can claim involvement with a high profile crime, especially long after the event, and Alphon was an oddball for sure. He was certainly out to make mischief for whatever reason, and his 'confessions' have to be regarded with a great deal of scepticism.

The problem is that, oddball or not, he was closely connected to the investigation from the outset due to his stint at the Vienna Hotel and predilection for Slough dog track and a tipple at the Station Inn. He also came up with a motive for the crime which might be far from convincing, but makes more sense to many than the motive put forward by the police investigation.

[moste]

Well now, Mr Moste. In the case of Mrs Dinwoodie, it was a representative of the law, a DC Pugh of Liverpool Police, who showed Mrs D just the one photo of our Jim.

In the case of Mrs Jones, it was a representative of Hanratty's defence-team, one Mr Joseph Gillbanks, who made a similar mistake on 6 February 1962.

So I take it from this that you reckon Hanratty was stitched up by his own defence-team??? I'd read some books on the case, if I were you.

Graham

No need for sarcasm. And I have read as many books as I needed to read to convince me that they were going to hang Hanratty no matter where in the country he was.

[moste]

And would Alphon have given his Paris interview if the jury had not convicted Hanratty?

He'd have been taking one hell of a chance!

I appreciate that any nutter can claim involvement with a high profile crime, especially long after the event, and Alphon was an oddball for sure. He was certainly out to make mischief for whatever reason, and his 'confessions' have to be regarded with a great deal of scepticism.

The problem is that, oddball or not, he was closely connected to the investigation from the outset due to his stint at the Vienna Hotel and predilection for Slough dog track and a tipple at the Station Inn. He also came up with a motive for the crime which might be far from convincing, but makes more sense to many than the motive put forward by the police investigation.

One of the reasons I thought it a good Idea to post a map of the Slough area on A6 rebooted. Note the pinned location of the old station inn compared to the location of the dog track (as was). What the hell is he doing drinking in a Taplow country pub so far out from the middle of Slough?

[Natalie Severn]

Nats,

Mrs Jones, bless her, could have been Saint Cecilia for all I care about her decency and honesty - the bald fact is that like Mrs Dinwoody she was simply mistaken. I've lost count of the number of times this has been debated on these forums, but:

1] Ingledene was not identified by Hanratty. Joe Gillbanks and his oppo were door-knocking in Rhyl, and when they arrived out of the blue at Ingledene Mrs Jones said she thought she remembered a young man looking for digs about the critical time, but couldn't be precise. As the defence were by now clutching at straws, this was good enough for them to act on.

2] Hanratty's description of Mrs Jones was not accurate.

3] As with good Mrs Dinwoodie, good Mrs Jones was shown just one photo - that of Hanratty. This on its own is enough to throw her testimony into serious doubt, same as Mrs Dinwoodie. Sheer incompetence, given what was at stake, i.e., a man's life.

4] All Mrs Jones said was that she had a feeling that she remembered the man in the photo. Mmm, very precise. Even in court, when she was asked if she recognised the defendant, James Hanratty, she could only say, "I am almost sure". Are you getting the flavour of this yet, Nats?

5] Swanwick said to her that "it wouldn't be quite right for you to say that you recognised the man in the photo, would it"? And Mrs Jones replied, "Well, no".

6] She said she was muddled about the colour of Hanratty's hair, but in fact it was Terry Jones who told her that the reason she was not too sure about identifying Hanratty in court was the colour of his hair. After which they both got a good bollocking off the judge for being seen talking together during a recess. Naughty.

7] Hanratty said there was a 'green plant in a bowl in the hall' at Ingledene. There was not. There was a vase containing artificial flowers.

8] The legendary 'green bath'. Hanratty in court said it was 'at the top of the house, I would say the attic'. He then added, 'But it might not have been the attic'. (Some time ago, when you were absent from these boards, Nats, the lady who now actually lives in Ingledene posted. Well worth having a look at).

9] Hanratty never said he slept in a room containing a green bath; he said he slept in another room.

10] The famous green bath was in a room marked PRIVATE (and I think still is) and could not be seen from the landing even when the door was open. It is clear that Hanratty was using his experience of other B&B's and guest-houses to construct what he hoped would be a believable description of Ingledene.

11] The other guests who were at Ingledene on the nights of 22 and 23 August were all traced by the police, and not one of them could remember seeing anyone who even resembled James Hanratty.

Nats, I'm under absolutely no illusion that what I've written (for the nth time, it seems) will have any affect at all upon your reading of the the A6 Case and the behaviour of James Hanratty during and after it. But there you are: I try.

Graham

1] This is so inaccurate Graham.I am surprised tbh.

This question was put to Mrs Jones:Does your house have a green bath?
Mrs Jones said YES....and everything changed because Green Baths in houses you walked in straight from the street were unusual to say the least in 1961. Moreover exactly like the sketch /map Hanratty got Kleinman to draw the house stood in a road with a cinema at the far end next to the hump backed bridge he described.

2]Hanratty's description of Mrs Jones was ok -near enough. But not 'accurate' in the sense of every detail.

3]correct

4]true-she was unnerved and thrown by Swanwick's aggressive,bullying questioning.

5]pass---maybe she did say that to Mr Swanwick -I understand she was extremely intimidated by Mr Swanwick and probably struggled to cope in court.She came away feeling humiliated and in tears.Frankly I think it was must have been a vile experience for any ordinary working class woman to have endured in that court during a murder trial .

6]Mrs Jones remembered a man with different coloured hair from the bright orange hair he had in court.Wouldn't you unless you were extremely short sighted?Hanratty's hair on 22/23 August 1961 was died black and becoming streaky.In court he had dyed it bright orange--or rather it had turned out that way.

7]unsurprising -....remembering flowers as a plant....lol!


8]I saw the lady's posts-whats the problem? She agreed there had indeed been a green bath at the top of the house for goodness sake!

9]I never said he said he slept in a room with a green bath.

10]Blom Cooper.....read him and a few other legal experts to see whether this ,the green bath was a pretty unusual feature for any guest house in Rhyl to have in 1961.

11] One only rarely gets to see other guests .They come down at different times.
Hanratty wasn't sat out in the dining room with other guests having breakfast all at the same time-few of them were .Alexis Sayle's father for example was out at union conference from 7.30 am until late all the time he was there .Additionally Hanratty had to have his breakfast in the back room because they were full .

[Graham]

No need for sarcasm. And I have read as many books as I needed to read to convince me that they were going to hang Hanratty no matter where in the country he was.

Wasn't being sarcastic at all. Joe Gillbanks was a retired Det Sgt with Liverpool Police who had set himself up after retirement (33 years with the bizzies) as a private investigator. He saw his job as finding out who were the people Hanratty claimed to have visited on his claimed trip to Liverpool on 22 August. He was nothing if not thorough, but drew a blank. He also investigated the left-luggage officde at Lime Street Station, and Mrs Dinwoodie at the sweet shop. Mrs D complained about his 'bullying' manner.

When he was interviewed in 1967 as part of the Nimmo Inquiry, he said:

I conducted extensive and careful inquiries in both Liverpool and Rhyl in late 1961 and early 1962 and I have no hesitation in saying that I found no reliable person in either place who could convince me as an ex-police officer that Hanratty had been in either place on 22 or 23 August 1961.

Much later, he was approached by, I think, Paul Foot, and refused to discuss the case at all.

Hanratty, it should be clearly understood, all but hanged himself when he changed his alibi. Had that never happened, can you please explain to me why the 'Establishment' or whatever you wish to call it, should have wanted him dead? A very simple question, I think, that requires an equally simple answer.

Graham

[Spitfire]

Hanratty, it should be clearly understood, all but hanged himself when he changed his alibi. Had that never happened, can you please explain to me why the 'Establishment' or whatever you wish to call it, should have wanted him dead? A very simple question, I think, that requires an equally simple answer.

The Establishment wanted Alphon dead which is why Nudds was made to change his statement as to Alphon's stay at the Vienna.

Mike Mansfield QC said Alphon did not do the A6.

Mike Mansfield QC is not a member of the Establishment.

[uncle_adolph]

2] Hanratty's description of Mrs Jones was not accurate.

Graham

Neither was Valerie Storie's original description of the man who was hung for the murder.

[caz]

Hi Caz,
-One of the most serious omissions of the prosecution case was that Alphon ,who had for several weeks prior to Hanratty's arrest been the Prime Suspect ,had stayed at the very same hotel as Hanratty and had even arrived as Hanratty left ...yet Alphon was not allowed by Acott to be questioned in court by Sherrard .

To be fair, Nats, the prosecution's case was against Hanratty, not Alphon. How could questioning Alphon about his movements have been relevant to Hanratty's?

Nor,btw, was Sherrard allowed to have the man Valerie first identified as her rapist ,the 5 ' 9" in Michael Clark [who had dark brown eyes and was well built-according to Acott] brought to the court for comparisons. That would have been very important for the jury to consider surely in terms of comparison since Hanratty was exceptionally slim according to Louise Anderson and his eyes were light blue and he was just over 5'7' tall.

A fairer point, but it suggests Valerie was not 'coached' to pick out the suspect - Alphon - from that first line-up because she failed to do so and picked out the entirely innocent Clark instead. This argues against any coaching before the second line-up, and I'm sure you would not have been happy to see Hanratty questioned in court by Sherrard (as per your first point) if the boot had been on the other foot, and Alphon the one on trial as a result of Valerie failing to pick out Hanratty. I'm sure you'd agree that would have been entirely wrong. And if it would have been wrong for Hanratty to be questioned, at someone else's murder trial, after a failed identification by the victim, it would have been wrong for Alphon too.

Love,

Caz
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