Mail's feature of 1999 on Hanratty by Roger Matthews

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats,

France a petty criminal who killed himself because Hanratty had dragged him from the little league into the serious, vicious, nasty big boys game.
KR,
Vic.

Oh p-l-e-a-s-e! France was a bouncer--the gun handler at the Rehearsal Club! He worked there every night---through the night.

Mrs Roberts owned the Rehearsal Club where France had been a bouncer---or 'doorman' if you prefer euphemisms.

The Sunday Times of 18th December 1966 reported this same Mrs Roberts as saying of James Hanratty :

""He [Hanratty] was so quiet and polite....he was naive you know , and people would take liberties with him.

If anyone knew the ropes in the Rehearsal Club -frequented by gangsters ,some big time ones too apparently -it was France-not Hanratty ,Victor.

[Victor]

Hi Nats,

but the logistics of this are all impossibly strained

Only if you keep building dodgy strawmen in the way.

because it would amount to Hanratty not only being 'overcome' by his lust murder fantasies

- this isn't needed at all.

but also planning his 'lust' murder ahead of 22nd August 1961

- neither is this.

one of these men from Liverpool who would be taught by him to try to impersonate his London accent

- and it's a hat-trick of unnecessary requirements!

The gunman meanwhile was beginning to get himself steamed up like a kettle for his imagined tryst

- and that makes 4!

he waved his gun about like a cowboy while at the same time holding back his explosion of steam by gabbing non stop for five hours

- number 5 in the list of imaginary roadblocks...

it doesn't make sense yet in essence its what they expected people to accept as their theory about the crime.

Did you read what I wrote at all? You quoted it...

We know Hanratty hung around with dodgy Liverpudlians because he tried to get a false alibi with 3 of them. They refused to get personally involved so reasonably could have offered Hanratty the sweetshop alibi instead.

2 sentences. The first sentence and the first half of the second are undisputed facts. The last bit is my speculation, and is completely unrelated to your entire post.

3 dodgy Liverpudlians brought into the situation because of Hanratty's dodgy associations AGAIN. Who hang around with other dodgy characters, anyone of whom could easily have said something like "Well I'm not giving evidence that you were with us, but I can tell you I went into a sweetshop on Scotland Road to ask directions for Carleton Street, so maybe you can use that."

KR,
Vic.

[GUT]

Why would anyone be surprised at dodgy characters being witnesses [for defence or prosecution] in a criminal trial?

[Victor]

France was a bouncer--the gun handler at the Rehearsal Club! He worked there every night---through the night.

So what was France's criminal record like? You know, some actual real evidence!

The Sunday Times of 18th December 1966 reported this same Mrs Roberts as saying of James Hanratty :

He [Hanratty] was so quiet and polite....he was naive you know , and people would take liberties with him.

And of course we have evidence here too - Hanratty's criminal record - the unrepentant and pretty incompetent (judging from the number of times he was caught) house-breaker and seasoned carjacker. Ah, so sweet and cute and cuddly and "not innocent"* !

KR,
Vic.

* Hanratty's words from the trial.

[Victor]

Why would anyone be surprised at dodgy characters being witnesses [for defence or prosecution] in a criminal trial?

Hey GUT,

I'm totally unsurprised too, but then that's really a question for Natalie to answer, as she's the one throwing mud around hoping that some of it will stick.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats,

Gosh I'm shocked, procedures have improved and if it was done today the result would be different. The entire process would be different and Valerie would be given different instructions regarding the ID parade, I resent your attempts to smear the surviving VICTIM here, so much for justice.

KR,
Vic.

I am sorry, Victor.I am not trying to 'smear' Valerie, the surviving victim.Valerie has always appeared to me to have suffered terribly from this horrendous crime. Clearly she did her best to cooperate in every way she could with the prosecution and sincerely believed she had identified the right man.Her life was in ruins when only a young attractive 23 year old girl with the whole world in front of her. My apologies if you are offended on Valerie's behalf and I accept what you have written above. Norma
think I will leave it at that for today.

[Spitfire]

Hi Spitfire,

Things to add in are:-
1. Meeting Charlie White the paper seller at the bus station.
2. Hunting for "John" (Terry Evans \ Star) and not finding him, despite having previously slept the night at his house.

Have you seen this site? http://pemmusing.wordpress.com/2012/...dshire-murder/

The chronology seems fairly accurate.

KR,
Vic.

Thanks for that, I have not seen this before.

I am not sure how accurate it is regarding the timeline of the events with which I am presently concerned. Mr Magee says that

"Hanratty now said he had travelled to Rhyl by coach arriving there at approximately 7:30 p.m."

I think everyone assumes that Hanratty must have gone to Rhyl on the 6 pm bus from Liverpool which arrived at 8.19 pm (scheduled) of 8.17pm if early.

To arrive at 7.30pm Hanratty would have had to have caught a bus which would have left Liverpool at no later than 5.10pm. We do not know if such a bus existed, and if it did, would this have given Hanratty the time required to do all he said he did in Liverpool?

The other point which occurs to me concerns Robert Kempt of the billiard hall, who said it was his practice to take his early evening smoke at between 6.00pm and 7,30pm. If he had stuck to these times on the evening of 22 August then there would not have been the opportunity for Hanratty to do what he said he did at the billiard hall AND catch the bus, whether it be at 5.10pm or 6.00pm.

[GUT]

G'day Victor

I think smeer is a bit harsh for what Natalie is trying to get across.

The ID parade does appear to have been a bit of a dog's breakfast by today's standards.

But it is grossly unfair to judge by today's standards.

[Graham]

Hi Nats,

Oh p-l-e-a-s-e! France was a bouncer--the gun handler at the Rehearsal Club! He worked there every night---through the night.

In fact Dixie France was "manager" of The Harmony Cafe in Archer Street, a real dive which attracted various low life and was also well-known as a place where modern-jazz musicians met. Dixie was well-known for keeping a selection of weapons under the counter in case of trouble, but I'm not sure if this selection included a gun. I don't think he was employed by The Rehearsal Club, but was definitely something of a regular there. One of Dixie's previous convictions is listed as "unlawful possession of an overcoat", which for some reason I find funny!

Graham

[Derrick]

...Wrong. You are forgetting Anderson, a bag of Hanratty's clothing was taken as evidence from her flat...

Hanratty left 2 suitcases at Anderson's flat after he had returned from Ireland on or around the 9th September, some 16, or so, days after the gun was found on the bus. So your point is completely irrelevant, except for the fact that Hanratty told Acott almost immediately where to collect them from during his second telephone call on 6th of October, 5 days before he was even arrested.

HTH
Del

[Graham]

With regard to the ID parades and Valerie's ultimate identification of Hanratty as the man who killed Michael Gregsten and raped and shot her, unsatisfactory though they may have been by modern standards, Hanratty's defence team didn't mount a challenge, and the trial judge made no remark concerning it. And of course the jury accepted Valerie's identification of Hanratty.

Graham

[Victor]

I am sorry, Victor.I am not trying to 'smear' Valerie, the surviving victim.

Thank you for the apology. On second thoughts, I would characterise this as unintentional "splash-damage" rather than "smearing".

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Hi Del,

Hanratty left 2 suitcases at Anderson's flat after he had returned from Ireland on or around the 9th September, some 16, or so, days after the gun was found on the bus. So your point is completely irrelevant,

"Completely irrelevant"? "Clearly demonstrated precedent" is more accurate.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

So what was France's criminal record like? You know, some actual real evidence!
KR,
Vic.

* Hanratty's words from the trial.

Thankyou Graham for the information you posted.

Here is some specific detail of the evidence asked by Victor re Charles France. France's original name was Charles Frederick Franz [a surname he anglicized to France].Louis Blom-Cooper was at a loss to understand why it was that Charles France,had this 'overweening guilt complex' and he asks,"Did France ,in fact, play some part in the events which led to the A6 killing?

Charles "Dixie' France:-

By the time James Hanratty was born in 1937 Charles 'Dixie' France [born 1919 ] had acquired 5 criminal convictions :two for larceny,one for selling fruit in a restricted place,one for being in unlawful possession of an overcoat and one for stealing lead from the roof of a block of unoccupied dwellings.*
During his twenties in WW2 he collected six further convictions, two for theft and three for ' frequenting a common gaming house'.There were additionally three post war convictions all for gambling offences.

Victor ,regarding your post accusing me of 'smearing Valerie' I was simply quoting a legal expert analysing Valerie's entire testimony; Louis Blom-Cooper Blom -Cooper was in fact a distinguished barrister and legal commentator and he impugned the entirety of her testimony .Blom-Cooper analysed a number of points of evidence,demonstrating for example how totally ludicrous the 'roadworks' evidence was and stating,crucially ,that "Once Storie's evidence was discounted,the only other evidence was Langdale's-[who was a notorious prison grass.]*-from Bob Woffinden,Hanratty :The Final Verdict.

PS Can we now have some 'concrete' evidence about Hanratty's role in the A6 murder rather than repeatedly smearing him and presenting us with your own prejudices and value judgements.

[Spitfire]

I am afraid that you can't simply discount the evidence which you find inconvenient. The jury heard that evidence and believed it was credible. They also heard the evidence of Mrs Jones and Hanratty and decided that it was not credible.

I am keen to know why Matthews was certain to that Hanratty was innocent, to the extent that non only had the prosecution not proved its case, but that on the balance of probabilities, Hanratty had not committed the crime.

I have given a timeline above which shows that the witnesses (Larman, Walker and Vincent) could have seen Hanratty in Rhyl at about 8.30 pm on 22 August 1961. It is true that there are gaps and inconsistencies as to time, but the basis of an alibi is there.

The question then arises as to why did Sherrard not seek to use this evidence at the appeal? Sherrard was in a better position than Matthews to analyse the evidence, as he had access to the direct instructions of Hanratty. Yet he chose not to call any fresh evidence at the appeal. Why? Had Hanratty given instructions which were manifestly at odds with the putative evidence of Larman, Walker and Vincent? Had Sherrard become mentally scarred with the ordeal of Mrs Jones? Did Sherrard come to the conclusion after Mrs Jones's disaster in the witness box, that Hanratty had not spent the nights of 22 and 23 August in Rhyl?