Mail's feature of 1999 on Hanratty by Roger Matthews

[Natalie Severn]

I think that I can now see Sherrard's problem.

Hanratty says he arrived at Ingledene after dark.

Larman has Hanratty on Kinmel St. at about 7.30 pm when the sun was shining and Mrs Walker has Hanratty on South Kinmel St at 7.30 pm when it was going dark with the street lamps on.

Both Walker and Larman have Hanratty without any bags.

Hi Spitfire, I have done a lot of research into this. When Margaret Walker was cross questioned by Gillbanks -an ex policeman acting in this instance for the defence after Kleinman wrote to him asking for more information on Mrs Walker's sighting Gillbanks wrote back saying

" [Margaret Walker ] fixes the time owing to her domestic arrangements and because it was getting dark and the street lamps were lit ."


Sunset being about 8.30 on 22nd August the street lights would have come on at about 8.50 as they do today-----when it has begun to get dark.


re Larman---ok ok ....i don't know the answer sorry to when exactly Mr Larman saw him but it wasn't at 7.30 as he thought-it must have been after 8.17pm.

[Natalie Severn]

I think that I can now see Sherrard's problem.

Hanratty says he arrived at Ingledene after dark.

Larman has Hanratty on Kinmel St. at about 7.30 pm when the sun was shining and Mrs Walker has Hanratty on South Kinmel St at 7.30 pm when it was going dark with the street lamps on.

Both Walker and Larman have Hanratty without any bags.

Had Michael Sherrard ,Hanratty's trial barrister have gone more deeply into the issue of times instead of accepting that Margaret Walker could not have seen Hanratty at 7.30 pm and looked more closely into the second part of her sentence about time where she stated that it was after the lights had gone on at about 8.50 pm Hanratty's appeal might possibly have been successful ---IMHO.Ditto Ivy Vincent who corroborated Margaret Walker's sighting.And of course then they didn't know that Betty Davies had had a young man without a case looking for digs and calling on her in Kinmel Street 'when it was getting dark.'

[Spitfire]

Spitfire-I can only go on text's I have shown you.Its possible Hanratty had called into B&B's with no vacancies soon after he got off the bus and in one of them left his case while he looked round.

Yes, that would explain why Mr Larman and Mrs Walker saw Hanratty without any luggage but would mean that the B&B where Hanratty left his case was Ingledene. He would then have to leave Ingledene to encounter Mr Larman on the junction of Kinmel and Bodfor Street before sunset (at 20.24 ish) who sends him back to Ingledene. This is pointless as that is where Hanratty has just left, so he goes to Mrs Betty Davies at 21 Kinmel St (i.e. next door to Ingledene) then on to Mesdames Walker and Vincent at South Kinmel Street (i.e just behind Ingledene).

Mrs Jones's kindness in taking bailment of the small leather case backfired on Hanratty as no one liked the look of him as he didn't have any luggage.

[Natalie Severn]

[QUOTE=Spitfire;296020]Yes, that would explain why Mr Larman and Mrs Walker saw Hanratty without any luggage but would mean that the B&B where Hanratty left his case was Ingledene. QUOTE]
Why would it? It could have been any B&B after he left the bus I think---he would hardly have gone to Ingledene then let Mr Larman point it out again without Hanratty saying something like-'thats where I have just been' . Personally I think Margaret Walker is more important to this here -as important as Mrs Dinwoody.

[Victor]

Yes, that would explain why Mr Larman and Mrs Walker saw Hanratty without any luggage but would mean that the B&B where Hanratty left his case was Ingledene.

Why would it? It could have been any B&B after he left the bus I think---he would hardly have gone to Ingledene then let Mr Larman point it out again without Hanratty saying something like-'thats where I have just been'.

Hi Nats,

I too think it must have been the Ingledene or possibly the left luggage at the station (one of Hanratty's normal routines), otherwise he must have left the case somewhere else, then gone looking and been turned away from multiple places, then gone to Ingledene and negotiated the dodgy "bathroom" bed, then gone and collected the luggage, and then back to Ingledene again. A fairly memorable sequence of events that no-one remembered and gave evidence about, but then no-one gave evidence about leaving the case anywhere to go searching...

Personally I think Margaret Walker is more important to this here -as important as Mrs Dinwoody.

Unfortunately all the speculation about Rhyl just reeks of square pegs and round holes. Dinwoodie says "definitely Monday", Scottish (IIRC) accent, which gets twisted to fit Hanratty's evidence. Occam's razor is nowhere to be seen.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats,



Unfortunately all the speculation about Rhyl just reeks of square pegs and round holes. Dinwoodie says "definitely Monday", Scottish (IIRC) accent, which gets twisted to fit Hanratty's evidence. Occam's razor is nowhere to be seen.

KR,
Vic.

[Mrs Dinwoody and her granddaughter said they had difficulty following his accent [as Liverpuddlians] and thought it might be Scottish or Welsh]

But lets re-cap about what Mr Swanwick decided he would make of this case at the point when the police were beginning to accept what Mrs Dinwoody was saying about her sighting .

Swanwick ,along with Acott , believed Hanratty was sexually ablaze in some way [unnoticed that is by anyone else whatsoever who appeared in court for the prosecution btw] and had planned and executed the murder in order to have sex with Valerie Storie .To this effect he had bought an alibi who looked just like him and paid him to wander into Mrs Dinwoody's sweetshop and ask her where Tarlton or Carlton road was . The judge politely attempted to point out to the jury here the "problems " with such a suggestion ,"Members of the jury,when it is said that this alibi is "bought" then how did he know anyone had made an inquiry of Mrs Dinwoody for Tarleton or Carlton Road?"
Indeed-and this not to even mention the Monty Pythonesque suggestion that Acott made - bothered from the start about Mrs Dinwoody's evidence [which btw he had taken care from the start to conceal from the defence] was cross questioned about it and made the preposterous suggestion that Hanratty had taken a plane or a helicopter to the South to get to Buckinghamshire in time to murder Michael Gregsten and then rape Valerie Storie ---because Acott like Swanwick considered the crime to be all about a man sexually aroused to the point of madness -despite the inconsistency of that scenario with the killer waiting over 2 hours in a cornfield chatting away to the lovers and another 3 hours driving about the outer suburbs of London before committing the crimes .
You talk about square pegs -I talk of half baked theories that take off by helicopter to cloud cuckoo land.

[Spitfire]

Occam's razor is nowhere to be seen.

Hanratty said he had a shave at a barbers whilst in Rhyl. Could it be there?

[Spitfire]

[QUOTE=Natalie Severn;296021]

Yes, that would explain why Mr Larman and Mrs Walker saw Hanratty without any luggage but would mean that the B&B where Hanratty left his case was Ingledene. QUOTE]
Why would it? It could have been any B&B after he left the bus I think---he would hardly have gone to Ingledene then let Mr Larman point it out again without Hanratty saying something like-'thats where I have just been' . Personally I think Margaret Walker is more important to this here -as important as Mrs Dinwoody.

I thought the point of the statement of JH which you uploaded was to show that JH left the little hyde (sic) case at Ingledene while he searched for alternative accommodation.

[Natalie Severn]

No Spitfire-the point I was making was that he wasn't seen with any case because he had asked a landlady -soon after his arrival in Rhyl-presumably a landlady who had no vacancies -possibly Mrs Jones -if he could leave the case with her.

[Spitfire]

No Spitfire-the point I was making was that he wasn't seen with any case because he had asked a landlady -soon after his arrival in Rhyl-presumably a landlady who had no vacancies -possibly Mrs Jones -if he could leave the case with her.

That seems a reasonable enough explanation. Although I had read it that it was Mrs Jones who was offering to look after the little leather case.

[Derrick]

You talk about square pegs -I talk of half baked theories that take off by helicopter to cloud cuckoo land.

Hi Norma

You have it in a nutshell, girl!

ATB
Del Boy

[Graham]

Not even the most enthusiastic supporter of Hanratty's guilt would ever go along with the incredible helicopter crap! The court didn't believe it, that was for sure. Clutching at straws springs to mind. And I am one who believes that Hanratty was guilty (and thus never in Rhyl on the night of 22 August).

With the Rhyl Alibi taken as a whole, it can never be proven after more than 50 years, and indeed couldn't be proven even at the time. Sherrard didn't believe it, I'm certain of that, and neither did the jury, obviously. Mrs Jones blew her chance when she was seen and overheard talking to Terry Evans during a lunch-break, and also when she made a pig's ear of the register. But it was worth a shot considering a man's life was at stake. Knowing a little bit about how the legal mind operates in cases such as this, I'm pretty sure that Sherrard counselled Hanratty to stick with his Liverpool Alibi; I've always felt that had he done so, Hanratty might have stood a chance, however remote, of being acquitted. But who knows?

Graham

[Spitfire]

Knowing a little bit about how the legal mind operates in cases such as this, I'm pretty sure that Sherrard counselled Hanratty to stick with his Liverpool Alibi; I've always felt that had he done so, Hanratty might have stood a chance, however remote, of being acquitted. But who knows?

I think that the choices which were available to Sherrard were either to run with the amended alibi and have Hanratty give his evidence from the witness box, or not to call Hanratty to give evidence at all.

[Spitfire]

So it seems that the likely course of events was as follows.

20.17 Hanratty gets off bus.

2.20ish Hanratty inquires as to accommodation but is told there is no room at the inn by an (as yet) unidentified guest house proprietor (unless it was Mrs Jones of Ingledene) who allows Hanratty to leave his little hide case.

20.21 Larman and Hanratty meet on the junction of Bodfor St and Kinmel St where the former points the latter in the direction of Ingledene.

20.24 to 21.08 Hanratty does not go direct to Ingledene (possibly because that is the guest house in which he left his little leather case) but tries guest houses next door to Ingledene and at the rear of Ingledene on South Kinmel St.

21.08 or later Hanratty eventually secures accommodation at Ingledene

[NickB]

I'm pretty sure that Sherrard counselled Hanratty to stick with his Liverpool Alibi

I can imagine the spirited debates we would be having now about whether the Liverpool Alibi was true or not.