Mail's feature of 1999 on Hanratty by Roger Matthews

[GUT]

G'day Natalie

But why would he leave the case with Mrs Jones and then go looking for a room. Surely if he has spoken with her he has arranged a room with her.

Or have I misunderstood what you are saying?

[Natalie Severn]

GUT;295990]G'day Natalie

But why would he leave the case with Mrs Jones and then go looking for a room. Surely if he has spoken with her he has arranged a room with her.

Or have I misunderstood what you are saying?

In court Mrs Jones explained she was full and had no vacancies.So it looks like he asked if he could leave his case there then he went back for his case having found nowhere else to stay because they were all full. He says at first he booked with the landlady who looked like his mum only for one night-later he booked for two nights.

re photocopy attached-here is Kleinman[solicitor] taking down hurriedly answers to questions he is firing to Hanratty after Hanratty has just changed his alibi-during his trial.Do note you have to imagine the questions here -eg Kelinman ,"What were you wearing? Hanratty- "[I was] wearing the double breasted l striped suit " etc

[Spitfire]

Can I get this right as a timeline for the material events in Rhyl on the evening of 22 August 1961?

19.15 Chris Larman leaves an hotel on the corner of Kimnel Street. He is approached by a man in his 30's asking if CL knows where he can find digs. CL shows him the whereabouts of Ingledene. The man had no case. CL could not determine the colour of the man's hair due to the sun shining upon it.

20.17 Hanratty gets off bus.

20.24 Sun sets over Rhyl

20.24-21.08 Twilight in Rhyl. The lights go on as it gets dark. Man without case asks for digs in South Kimnel St. Asking Mesdames Davies, Walker and Vincent.

21.08 It is dark in Rhyl.

Some time after it goes dark Hanratty pitches up at Ingledene.

Could there have been two singletons in Rhyl looking for accommodation on that night? Mr Larman seems definite on his timings and the fact that the sun was shining. For Mr Larman to have seen Hanratty he would have had to put his timeline back over one hour from 19.15 to 20.17. Even then Hanratty's evidence was that it was an ordeal to find digs, whereas for Mr Larman to be correct, once Hanratty was off the bus almost immediately he found Mr Larman who pointed him in the direction of Ingledene.

[Spitfire]

In court Mrs Jones explained she was full and had no vacancies.So it looks like he asked if he could leave his case there then he went back for his case having found nowhere else to stay because they were all full. He says at first he booked with the landlady who looked like his mum only for one night-later he booked for two nights.

re photocopy attached-here is Kleinman[solicitor] taking down hurriedly answers to questions he is firing to Hanratty after Hanratty has just changed his alibi-during his trial.Do note you have to imagine the questions here -eg Kelinman ,"What were you wearing? Hanratty- "[I was] wearing the double breasted l striped suit " etc

Thanks for that. It is very interesting.

Do you have the previous page? As the top of the page reads "... then ran out of money."

Also Hanratty would have had the opportunity of giving evidence. What does the transcript say about this? I have not seen anything which would indicate that once Hanratty had found Ingledene, he went out again to look for better digs. Indeed it seems that he was prepared to sleep on the sofa etc at Mrs Walker's and Mrs Vincent's.

[Victor]

the Rhyl witnesses may have come along almost six months later when the trial was underway and they were reading about Hanratty in National newspapers again -about him going to Rhyl etc

Hi Nats,

I think you've done a pretty thorough job on this thread of discrediting those Rhyl witnesses, and validated Sherrrard's decision not to call them for the Appeal.

There was only one coach to Rhyl from Lime Street Liverpool ,Spitfire .I have been on it many a time .It had regular stops on way and I used to get off at Eastham.It was the kind of service which because it ran only once or twice a day would stop between stops if you put out your hand on its route .It left Lime Street at 6 o'clock and depending on traffic conditions got to Rhyl for 8.17.At 8.17 in Rhyl the sun is beginning to set.

So this coach is the important one, but it arrives in Rhyl AFTER Larman and the Walker\Vincent encounters.

Even a favourable reading of Hanratty's evidence has issues:-
1. When does he arrive in Rhyl? 8:17pm or thereabouts.
First he has to meet Charlie White the paper seller at the bus station, or maybe the Panorama confession means that didn't happen?

Then he has to get to Ingledene, and be told there are no vacancies, so he leaves his case with the most generic landlady ever described ("about 50", "like my mother") and goes out looking for digs.

He goes to 5 or 6 places nearby and meets Larman, who directs him to the place he's already been to and left his case! He also meets the Walker\Vincent\Davis bunch, presumably as part of the 5 or 6 places.

But why would he leave the case with Mrs Jones and then go looking for a room. Surely if he has spoken with her he has arranged a room with her.

Now the part that I find quite easy to believe, after you've swallowed all the twilight\getting dark\nearly dark vagueness, is that he can't find anywhere else to stay so goes back to Ingledene and Grace Jones tells him he can stay in the illegal bed in the "bathroom" for one night and have a room the second night, but he has to pay the full room rate, and eat separately to everyone else. Actually it makes sense that Hanratty, the thief and habitual liar, was quite prepared to collude on this nefarious scheme, but surely he'd have told Sherrard (at least) once Grace Jones had confessed in open court to her wrongdoing - he can't grass up someone who's already held their hands up.

but thats not the case with Mrs Dinwoody, a most important witness who was interviewed within six weeks of the crime .Barbara her granddaughter and her friend Linda Walton remembering precisely that they were in the shop late afternoon on that Tuesday.

Erm... that's not true, Paul Foot managed to coach and tutor the young girls into admitting it might have been Tuesday instead of Monday, but he failed to get Mrs Dinwoodie to agree...

Including Mrs Dunwoody, who said of her sighting: “It was definitely the Monday”.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

re Mr Larman + visit to Rhyl

Spitfire here is what Paul Foot has reported in his book on Mr Larman.Clearly the sighting could only have been after the bus arrived at 8.17 pm -but while sun was still shining so before 8.30pm.Hanratty then-if this sighting was of Hanratty- made for Mrs Jones's Ingledene, was told she was full and left his case there. Possible he made off for the fairground immediately after this-looked for 'John's Taxi' -it wasn't there so made way back to Mrs Jones's calling in at one or two B&B's on way back such as River Street 'en route' and Mrs Davies's who directed him round corner to South Kinmel Street. After which he returns to Mrs Jones and books for one night.

[Spitfire]

We should not confuse Olive Dinwoodie, a sweetshop locum, with Gwyneth Dunwoody, a (late) labour MP.

[Natalie Severn]

Spitfire re 'then ran out of money' in Kleinman's notes.
Here it is.Its about Hanratty's need to go to Liverpool first , but where he was unsuccessful in finding Aspinal to fence his goods . So after trying to sell the gold watch at the Billiard Hall and being told he wasn't allowed to do that ,he hops on Rhyl bus he sees waiting at Lime Street station opposite, to see if Terry Evans who he knows as 'John' might be able to 'fence it' or know of people who will buy it off him [Terry had told him he could do that].


btw that final sentence begins:- " Louise then ran out of money " -Hanratty had been staying with Louise Anderson who ran an 'antiques shop' in Soho.....and used the sell Hanratty's 'stuff' for him,herself making quite a profit by all accounts.

[Spitfire]

Spitfire here is what Paul Foot has reported in his book on Mr Larman.Clearly the sighting could only have been after the bus arrived at 8.17 pm -but while sun was still shining so before 8.30pm.Hanratty then-if this sighting was of Hanratty- made for Mrs Jones's Ingledene, was told she was full and left his case there. Possible he made off for the fairground immediately after this-looked for 'John's Taxi' -it wasn't there so made way back to Mrs Jones's calling in at one or two B&B's on way back such as River Street 'en route' and Mrs Davies's who directed him round corner to South Kinmel Street. After which he returns to Mrs Jones and books for one night.

Thanks for that.

I'm sure I've read somewhere that the man Mr Larman saw did not have a case with him.

But had we not established that the encounters with Mesdames Walker, Vincent and Davies were whilst it was going dark rather than after darkness had set in? So Hanratty would have had to start looking for alternative accommodation almost immediately on getting to Ingledene. Also he would have arrived at Ingledene for the first time whilst it was light, whereas he was definite that it was dark.

Surely the transcript would reveal whether Hanratty contended that this series of events had transpired.

[Natalie Severn]

Victor,
please read exactly what happened re Barbara Taylor and Linda Walton who were interviewed by the Police themselves. Both girls were 21 by the time Paul Foot interviewed any of these witnesses.

[Natalie Severn]

Spitfire-I can only go on text's I have shown you.Its possible Hanratty had called into B&B's with no vacancies soon after he got off the bus and in one of them left his case while he looked round.

[Natalie Severn]

Linda Walton's short statement :

[Victor]

please read exactly what happened re Barbara Taylor and Linda Walton who were interviewed by the Police themselves. Both girls were 21 by the time Paul Foot interviewed any of these witnesses.

Hi Nats,

Foot's account is hardly "exactly what happened", I don't think you could get a more biased version.

And are you ignoring Charlie White's Panorama confession that he and Evans cooked their story up between them?

KR,
Vic.

[Spitfire]

Spitfire-I can only go on text's I have shown you.

I think that I can now see Sherrard's problem.

Hanratty says he arrived at Ingledene after dark.

Larman has Hanratty on Kinmel St. at about 7.30 pm when the sun was shining and Mrs Walker has Hanratty on South Kinmel St at 7.30 pm when it was going dark with the street lamps on.

Both Walker and Larman have Hanratty without any bags.

[Natalie Severn]

Victor - Sorry the Panorama programme is not something I know much about .