Mail's feature of 1999 on Hanratty by Roger Matthews

[Derrick]

...Wrong. You are forgetting Anderson, a bag of Hanratty's clothing was taken as evidence from her flat...

Hanratty left 2 suitcases at Anderson's flat after he had returned from Ireland on or around the 9th September, some 16, or so, days after the gun was found on the bus. So your point is completely irrelevant, except for the fact that Hanratty told Acott almost immediately where to collect them from during his second telephone call on 6th of October, 5 days before he was even arrested.

HTH
Del

[Graham]

Hi Nats,

Oh p-l-e-a-s-e! France was a bouncer--the gun handler at the Rehearsal Club! He worked there every night---through the night.

In fact Dixie France was "manager" of The Harmony Cafe in Archer Street, a real dive which attracted various low life and was also well-known as a place where modern-jazz musicians met. Dixie was well-known for keeping a selection of weapons under the counter in case of trouble, but I'm not sure if this selection included a gun. I don't think he was employed by The Rehearsal Club, but was definitely something of a regular there. One of Dixie's previous convictions is listed as "unlawful possession of an overcoat", which for some reason I find funny!

Graham

[GUT]

G'day Victor

I think smeer is a bit harsh for what Natalie is trying to get across.

The ID parade does appear to have been a bit of a dog's breakfast by today's standards.

But it is grossly unfair to judge by today's standards.

[Spitfire]

Hi Spitfire,

Things to add in are:-
1. Meeting Charlie White the paper seller at the bus station.
2. Hunting for "John" (Terry Evans \ Star) and not finding him, despite having previously slept the night at his house.

Have you seen this site? http://pemmusing.wordpress.com/2012/...dshire-murder/

The chronology seems fairly accurate.

KR,
Vic.

Thanks for that, I have not seen this before.

I am not sure how accurate it is regarding the timeline of the events with which I am presently concerned. Mr Magee says that

"Hanratty now said he had travelled to Rhyl by coach arriving there at approximately 7:30 p.m."

I think everyone assumes that Hanratty must have gone to Rhyl on the 6 pm bus from Liverpool which arrived at 8.19 pm (scheduled) of 8.17pm if early.

To arrive at 7.30pm Hanratty would have had to have caught a bus which would have left Liverpool at no later than 5.10pm. We do not know if such a bus existed, and if it did, would this have given Hanratty the time required to do all he said he did in Liverpool?

The other point which occurs to me concerns Robert Kempt of the billiard hall, who said it was his practice to take his early evening smoke at between 6.00pm and 7,30pm. If he had stuck to these times on the evening of 22 August then there would not have been the opportunity for Hanratty to do what he said he did at the billiard hall AND catch the bus, whether it be at 5.10pm or 6.00pm.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats,

Gosh I'm shocked, procedures have improved and if it was done today the result would be different. The entire process would be different and Valerie would be given different instructions regarding the ID parade, I resent your attempts to smear the surviving VICTIM here, so much for justice.

KR,
Vic.

I am sorry, Victor.I am not trying to 'smear' Valerie, the surviving victim.Valerie has always appeared to me to have suffered terribly from this horrendous crime. Clearly she did her best to cooperate in every way she could with the prosecution and sincerely believed she had identified the right man.Her life was in ruins when only a young attractive 23 year old girl with the whole world in front of her. My apologies if you are offended on Valerie's behalf and I accept what you have written above. Norma
think I will leave it at that for today.

[Victor]

Why would anyone be surprised at dodgy characters being witnesses [for defence or prosecution] in a criminal trial?

Hey GUT,

I'm totally unsurprised too, but then that's really a question for Natalie to answer, as she's the one throwing mud around hoping that some of it will stick.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

France was a bouncer--the gun handler at the Rehearsal Club! He worked there every night---through the night.

So what was France's criminal record like? You know, some actual real evidence!

The Sunday Times of 18th December 1966 reported this same Mrs Roberts as saying of James Hanratty :

He [Hanratty] was so quiet and polite....he was naive you know , and people would take liberties with him.

And of course we have evidence here too - Hanratty's criminal record - the unrepentant and pretty incompetent (judging from the number of times he was caught) house-breaker and seasoned carjacker. Ah, so sweet and cute and cuddly and "not innocent"* !

KR,
Vic.

* Hanratty's words from the trial.

[GUT]

Why would anyone be surprised at dodgy characters being witnesses [for defence or prosecution] in a criminal trial?

[Victor]

Hi Nats,

but the logistics of this are all impossibly strained

Only if you keep building dodgy strawmen in the way.

because it would amount to Hanratty not only being 'overcome' by his lust murder fantasies

- this isn't needed at all.

but also planning his 'lust' murder ahead of 22nd August 1961

- neither is this.

one of these men from Liverpool who would be taught by him to try to impersonate his London accent

- and it's a hat-trick of unnecessary requirements!

The gunman meanwhile was beginning to get himself steamed up like a kettle for his imagined tryst

- and that makes 4!

he waved his gun about like a cowboy while at the same time holding back his explosion of steam by gabbing non stop for five hours

- number 5 in the list of imaginary roadblocks...

it doesn't make sense yet in essence its what they expected people to accept as their theory about the crime.

Did you read what I wrote at all? You quoted it...

We know Hanratty hung around with dodgy Liverpudlians because he tried to get a false alibi with 3 of them. They refused to get personally involved so reasonably could have offered Hanratty the sweetshop alibi instead.

2 sentences. The first sentence and the first half of the second are undisputed facts. The last bit is my speculation, and is completely unrelated to your entire post.

3 dodgy Liverpudlians brought into the situation because of Hanratty's dodgy associations AGAIN. Who hang around with other dodgy characters, anyone of whom could easily have said something like "Well I'm not giving evidence that you were with us, but I can tell you I went into a sweetshop on Scotland Road to ask directions for Carleton Street, so maybe you can use that."

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats,

France a petty criminal who killed himself because Hanratty had dragged him from the little league into the serious, vicious, nasty big boys game.
KR,
Vic.

Oh p-l-e-a-s-e! France was a bouncer--the gun handler at the Rehearsal Club! He worked there every night---through the night.

Mrs Roberts owned the Rehearsal Club where France had been a bouncer---or 'doorman' if you prefer euphemisms.

The Sunday Times of 18th December 1966 reported this same Mrs Roberts as saying of James Hanratty :

""He [Hanratty] was so quiet and polite....he was naive you know , and people would take liberties with him.

If anyone knew the ropes in the Rehearsal Club -frequented by gangsters ,some big time ones too apparently -it was France-not Hanratty ,Victor.

[Victor]

Hi Nats,

Gut, the victims ID today would be unacceptable in a court of law because Valerie Storie "identified "Michael Clark" as the A6 murderer a RAF airman in an ID parade of September 24th -just a few weeks before.

Gosh I'm shocked, procedures have improved and if it was done today the result would be different. The entire process would be different and Valerie would be given different instructions regarding the ID parade, I resent your attempts to smear the surviving VICTIM here, so much for justice.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats,

We know Hanratty hung around with dodgy Liverpudlians because he tried to get a false alibi with 3 of them. They refused to get personally involved so reasonably could have offered Hanratty the sweetshop alibi instead.

VR,
Vic.

but the logistics of this are all impossibly strained because it would amount to Hanratty not only being 'overcome' by his lust murder fantasies about Valerie Storie but also planning his 'lust' murder ahead of 22nd August 1961 with one of these men from Liverpool who would be taught by him to try to impersonate his London accent but it coming out in a Scottish/Welsh gobbledegook ---no wonder Mrs Dinwoody went off sick soon after !The gunman meanwhile was beginning to get himself steamed up like a kettle for his imagined tryst in a Cornfield in Dorney Reach where he waved his gun about like a cowboy while at the same time holding back his explosion of steam by gabbing non stop for five hours .......it doesn't make sense yet in essence its what they expected people to accept as their theory about the crime.

[Victor]

Hi Spitfire-well I take your point but it does need to be remembered that the witnesses for the prosecution were very flawed characters indeed and that this is a major part of the reason the case has gone on so long and has been such a cause celebre.

It does need to be remembered that the (witnesses for the prosecution) DEFENDANT was a very flawed character indeed.

There FTFY - Fixed That For You.

KR,
Vic

[Victor]

Hi Nats,

: Witnesses for the Prosecution Such a shower of shady types they were most of those appearing as prosecution witnesses,

That's just because those were the sort of people that Hanratty associated with! Anderson and France were his close friends. Nudds was the dodgy manager typical of the sort of place Hanratty stayed in. Langdale was inside with him

In fact Hanratty's trial must rank as having had some of shadiest nastiest witnesses ever to have been wheeled out by the prosecution in a uk court of law -especially when it was in order to give evidence in a capital case where a man was under the threat of execution.

Which is totally expected from associates of the shady, nasty Hanratty.

Charles France who fenced Hanratty's nicked jewellery and who had to be dragged into court between two men in white coats on one occasion so freaked out was he by the trial and having to appear at it ... tried to jump out of the hospital window on another occasion ...committing suicide finally shortly before Hanratty was hanged.

France a petty criminal who killed himself because Hanratty had dragged him from the little league into the serious, vicious, nasty big boys game.

Not forgetting that the only person who had access to Hanratty's dirty linen was France himself and his wife Charlotte who did Hanratty's washing for him.

Wrong. You are forgetting Anderson, a bag of Hanratty's clothing was taken as evidence from her flat.

Besides this bunch of reprobates the Rhyl witnesses all seem like regular and exemplary pillars of the community!

...as long as you don't include Evans\Star and White.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

So it seems that the likely course of events was as follows.

20.17 Hanratty gets off bus.

2.20ish Hanratty inquires as to accommodation but is told there is no room at the inn by an (as yet) unidentified guest house proprietor (unless it was Mrs Jones of Ingledene) who allows Hanratty to leave his little hide case.

20.21 Larman and Hanratty meet on the junction of Bodfor St and Kinmel St where the former points the latter in the direction of Ingledene.

20.24 to 21.08 Hanratty does not go direct to Ingledene (possibly because that is the guest house in which he left his little leather case) but tries guest houses next door to Ingledene and at the rear of Ingledene on South Kinmel St.

21.08 or later Hanratty eventually secures accommodation at Ingledene

Hi Spitfire,

Things to add in are:-
1. Meeting Charlie White the paper seller at the bus station.
2. Hunting for "John" (Terry Evans \ Star) and not finding him, despite having previously slept the night at his house.

Have you seen this site? http://pemmusing.wordpress.com/2012/...dshire-murder/

The chronology seems fairly accurate.

KR,
Vic.