Mail's feature of 1999 on Hanratty by Roger Matthews

[Natalie Severn]

Victor,
please read exactly what happened re Barbara Taylor and Linda Walton who were interviewed by the Police themselves. Both girls were 21 by the time Paul Foot interviewed any of these witnesses.

[Spitfire]

Spitfire here is what Paul Foot has reported in his book on Mr Larman.Clearly the sighting could only have been after the bus arrived at 8.17 pm -but while sun was still shining so before 8.30pm.Hanratty then-if this sighting was of Hanratty- made for Mrs Jones's Ingledene, was told she was full and left his case there. Possible he made off for the fairground immediately after this-looked for 'John's Taxi' -it wasn't there so made way back to Mrs Jones's calling in at one or two B&B's on way back such as River Street 'en route' and Mrs Davies's who directed him round corner to South Kinmel Street. After which he returns to Mrs Jones and books for one night.

Thanks for that.

I'm sure I've read somewhere that the man Mr Larman saw did not have a case with him.

But had we not established that the encounters with Mesdames Walker, Vincent and Davies were whilst it was going dark rather than after darkness had set in? So Hanratty would have had to start looking for alternative accommodation almost immediately on getting to Ingledene. Also he would have arrived at Ingledene for the first time whilst it was light, whereas he was definite that it was dark.

Surely the transcript would reveal whether Hanratty contended that this series of events had transpired.

[Natalie Severn]

Spitfire re 'then ran out of money' in Kleinman's notes.
Here it is.Its about Hanratty's need to go to Liverpool first , but where he was unsuccessful in finding Aspinal to fence his goods . So after trying to sell the gold watch at the Billiard Hall and being told he wasn't allowed to do that ,he hops on Rhyl bus he sees waiting at Lime Street station opposite, to see if Terry Evans who he knows as 'John' might be able to 'fence it' or know of people who will buy it off him [Terry had told him he could do that].


btw that final sentence begins:- " Louise then ran out of money " -Hanratty had been staying with Louise Anderson who ran an 'antiques shop' in Soho.....and used the sell Hanratty's 'stuff' for him,herself making quite a profit by all accounts.

[Spitfire]

We should not confuse Olive Dinwoodie, a sweetshop locum, with Gwyneth Dunwoody, a (late) labour MP.

[Natalie Severn]

re Mr Larman + visit to Rhyl

Spitfire here is what Paul Foot has reported in his book on Mr Larman.Clearly the sighting could only have been after the bus arrived at 8.17 pm -but while sun was still shining so before 8.30pm.Hanratty then-if this sighting was of Hanratty- made for Mrs Jones's Ingledene, was told she was full and left his case there. Possible he made off for the fairground immediately after this-looked for 'John's Taxi' -it wasn't there so made way back to Mrs Jones's calling in at one or two B&B's on way back such as River Street 'en route' and Mrs Davies's who directed him round corner to South Kinmel Street. After which he returns to Mrs Jones and books for one night.

[Victor]

the Rhyl witnesses may have come along almost six months later when the trial was underway and they were reading about Hanratty in National newspapers again -about him going to Rhyl etc

Hi Nats,

I think you've done a pretty thorough job on this thread of discrediting those Rhyl witnesses, and validated Sherrrard's decision not to call them for the Appeal.

There was only one coach to Rhyl from Lime Street Liverpool ,Spitfire .I have been on it many a time .It had regular stops on way and I used to get off at Eastham.It was the kind of service which because it ran only once or twice a day would stop between stops if you put out your hand on its route .It left Lime Street at 6 o'clock and depending on traffic conditions got to Rhyl for 8.17.At 8.17 in Rhyl the sun is beginning to set.

So this coach is the important one, but it arrives in Rhyl AFTER Larman and the Walker\Vincent encounters.

Even a favourable reading of Hanratty's evidence has issues:-
1. When does he arrive in Rhyl? 8:17pm or thereabouts.
First he has to meet Charlie White the paper seller at the bus station, or maybe the Panorama confession means that didn't happen?

Then he has to get to Ingledene, and be told there are no vacancies, so he leaves his case with the most generic landlady ever described ("about 50", "like my mother") and goes out looking for digs.

He goes to 5 or 6 places nearby and meets Larman, who directs him to the place he's already been to and left his case! He also meets the Walker\Vincent\Davis bunch, presumably as part of the 5 or 6 places.

But why would he leave the case with Mrs Jones and then go looking for a room. Surely if he has spoken with her he has arranged a room with her.

Now the part that I find quite easy to believe, after you've swallowed all the twilight\getting dark\nearly dark vagueness, is that he can't find anywhere else to stay so goes back to Ingledene and Grace Jones tells him he can stay in the illegal bed in the "bathroom" for one night and have a room the second night, but he has to pay the full room rate, and eat separately to everyone else. Actually it makes sense that Hanratty, the thief and habitual liar, was quite prepared to collude on this nefarious scheme, but surely he'd have told Sherrard (at least) once Grace Jones had confessed in open court to her wrongdoing - he can't grass up someone who's already held their hands up.

but thats not the case with Mrs Dinwoody, a most important witness who was interviewed within six weeks of the crime .Barbara her granddaughter and her friend Linda Walton remembering precisely that they were in the shop late afternoon on that Tuesday.

Erm... that's not true, Paul Foot managed to coach and tutor the young girls into admitting it might have been Tuesday instead of Monday, but he failed to get Mrs Dinwoodie to agree...

Including Mrs Dunwoody, who said of her sighting: “It was definitely the Monday”.

KR,
Vic.

[Spitfire]

In court Mrs Jones explained she was full and had no vacancies.So it looks like he asked if he could leave his case there then he went back for his case having found nowhere else to stay because they were all full. He says at first he booked with the landlady who looked like his mum only for one night-later he booked for two nights.

re photocopy attached-here is Kleinman[solicitor] taking down hurriedly answers to questions he is firing to Hanratty after Hanratty has just changed his alibi-during his trial.Do note you have to imagine the questions here -eg Kelinman ,"What were you wearing? Hanratty- "[I was] wearing the double breasted l striped suit " etc

Thanks for that. It is very interesting.

Do you have the previous page? As the top of the page reads "... then ran out of money."

Also Hanratty would have had the opportunity of giving evidence. What does the transcript say about this? I have not seen anything which would indicate that once Hanratty had found Ingledene, he went out again to look for better digs. Indeed it seems that he was prepared to sleep on the sofa etc at Mrs Walker's and Mrs Vincent's.

[Spitfire]

Can I get this right as a timeline for the material events in Rhyl on the evening of 22 August 1961?

19.15 Chris Larman leaves an hotel on the corner of Kimnel Street. He is approached by a man in his 30's asking if CL knows where he can find digs. CL shows him the whereabouts of Ingledene. The man had no case. CL could not determine the colour of the man's hair due to the sun shining upon it.

20.17 Hanratty gets off bus.

20.24 Sun sets over Rhyl

20.24-21.08 Twilight in Rhyl. The lights go on as it gets dark. Man without case asks for digs in South Kimnel St. Asking Mesdames Davies, Walker and Vincent.

21.08 It is dark in Rhyl.

Some time after it goes dark Hanratty pitches up at Ingledene.

Could there have been two singletons in Rhyl looking for accommodation on that night? Mr Larman seems definite on his timings and the fact that the sun was shining. For Mr Larman to have seen Hanratty he would have had to put his timeline back over one hour from 19.15 to 20.17. Even then Hanratty's evidence was that it was an ordeal to find digs, whereas for Mr Larman to be correct, once Hanratty was off the bus almost immediately he found Mr Larman who pointed him in the direction of Ingledene.

[Natalie Severn]

GUT;295990]G'day Natalie

But why would he leave the case with Mrs Jones and then go looking for a room. Surely if he has spoken with her he has arranged a room with her.

Or have I misunderstood what you are saying?

In court Mrs Jones explained she was full and had no vacancies.So it looks like he asked if he could leave his case there then he went back for his case having found nowhere else to stay because they were all full. He says at first he booked with the landlady who looked like his mum only for one night-later he booked for two nights.

re photocopy attached-here is Kleinman[solicitor] taking down hurriedly answers to questions he is firing to Hanratty after Hanratty has just changed his alibi-during his trial.Do note you have to imagine the questions here -eg Kelinman ,"What were you wearing? Hanratty- "[I was] wearing the double breasted l striped suit " etc

[GUT]

G'day Natalie

But why would he leave the case with Mrs Jones and then go looking for a room. Surely if he has spoken with her he has arranged a room with her.

Or have I misunderstood what you are saying?

[Natalie Severn]

So it was dark when Hanratty got to Ingledene but was getting dark when he saw Larman/Walker/Vincent/Davies which would imply that he saw them before encountering Mrs Jones. But what had happened to his case?

There was only one coach to Rhyl from Lime Street Liverpool ,Spitfire .I have been on it many a time .It had regular stops on way and I used to get off at Eastham.It was the kind of service which because it ran only once or twice a day would stop between stops if you put out your hand on its route .It left Lime Street at 6 o'clock and depending on traffic conditions got to Rhyl for 8.17.At 8.17 in Rhyl the sun is beginning to set . By 8.48pm the street lights have come on in Rhyl on 22nd August.Just after 9 pm its quite dark.

Regarding his 'little leather hyde ' case.In Kleinmen's notes ,taken down within the hour of him changing his alibi during his trial in Bedford and causing great concern as a result to his trial barrister, Michael Sherrard , he is asked what he was wearing and whether he was carrying his case and he immediately answers by saying that he had a case which he asked 'the landlady ' if he could leave it with her. Clearly this is because 'the landlady-who he says 'looked like his mother' has agreed to mind his case for him while he looks round to see if there are vacancies in other houses nearby.The young man seen by Mrs Walker, Mrs Vincent and Mrs Davies in nearby B&B's did not have a case which matches what he tells Kleinman.

[Spitfire]

So it was dark when Hanratty got to Ingledene but was getting dark when he saw Larman/Walker/Vincent/Davies which would imply that he saw them before encountering Mrs Jones. But what had happened to his case?

[Natalie Severn]

Nick,
[btw it gets dark quite suddenly on 22nd August in Rhyl around 8.55-9.05 pm whereas as 8.45 pm it is still light.]

Yes thats true. Also a crucially important Rhyl witness who came forward six years later was Mrs Betty Davies.Her baby had died days after being born in July 1961 and she herself had become ill.She didn't want to get involved in the case at the time but when six years later neighbours told her Mr and Mrs Hanratty wanted to talk to her about her recollection of sightings and times etc She agreed. She also made a statement .In her statement she says that she believes the man who called at her house in late August 1961 could have been James Hanratty .Betty Davies had been frightened when a young dark haired man knocked on her door late one August evening when she was alone except for her small daughter.At that time she and her husband ran a Boarding House next door to Ingeldene where Mrs Jones lived .At the back of her house there was an adjoining passage to her mother in laws house at 27 South Kinmel Street a tiny narrow street where two other Rhyl witnesses Margaret Walker at 12 and Ivy Vincent at number 23 lived .She hadn't liked the look of the young man because he was knocking on people's doors late in the evening -around 9 pm and didn't have a case with him.It was beginning to get dark by then.She suggested he go round the corner where he might find some vacancies.Shortly afterwards she decided to go and tell her mother in law Margaret Davies and ask her opinion on whether or not she should have taken him in. Margaret Davies wasn't alone. Margaret Walker had joined her and was able to tell them both an almost identical story but she was at Margaret Davies's house to ask her advice about her son who was being evicted from his house at the end of that week.On hearing about Betty's visitor Mrs Walker told them she too had been visited by a young man just a little while ago.They later learned he had called on Ivy Vincent too.

It seems likely they were all visited by the same young man.These meetings could not have taken place on 25th July because Betty Davies was in Chatsworth House nursing home , Prestatyn from July 20th to July 28th .
Betty Davies's statement was fully endorsed by Noel Davies her husband and her mother in law.The statements of Betty Davies, Margaret Walker, Ivy Vincent and Mrs Grace Jones are closely linked and had the jury heard them they would have found it difficult to dismiss them out of hand.

[Natalie Severn]

Victor hang on- the Rhyl witnesses may have come along almost six months later when the trial was underway and they were reading about Hanratty in National newspapers again -about him going to Rhyl etc but thats not the case with Mrs Dinwoody, a most important witness who was interviewed within six weeks of the crime .Barbara her granddaughter and her friend Linda Walton remembering precisely that they were in the shop late afternoon on that Tuesday.

[NickB]

When Mr Swanwick asked him about his arrival in Rhyl, hanratty refused even to guess the time:
Q. You told us when you arrived in Rhyl it was dark: is that right?
A. No, I did not say that.

In answer to Sherrard, Hanratty had said that after arrival in Rhyl he enquired on five or six occasions to get bed and breakfast in the area eventually coming to a small private house with a ‘bed and breakfast’ sign.

Hanratty said: “It was dark at this time.”

He reiterated “it was dark” when he entered the house and could hear trains shunting.

So he didn't say it was dark when he arrived in Rhyl, but he did say it was dark when he arrived at the guesthouse.