Mail's feature of 1999 on Hanratty by Roger Matthews

[Spitfire]

So the only time mentioned by Hanratty was 7.30 p.m., which from the context above seems to be the time when he said the bus left Liverpool as he would not be drawn on the time of its arrival in Rhyl.

The time given by both Mr Larman and Mrs Walker for their respective meetings with Hanratty was 7.30 p.m. in both cases.

[Victor]

Unlike William Nudds ,Roy Langdale ,Trower et al

Hi Nats,

I think you are getting confused here, Nudds and Langdale are not identification witnesses. Langdale knew he was talking to Hanratty as they were locked up together, and Hanratty himself admitted he stayed at the Vienna which Nudds confirmed.

Trower et al are identification witnesses, but their evidence was contemporary, whereas the Rhyl witnesses are reporting events at least 6 months afterwards, and in some cases nearly a decade later.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

G'day Spitfire




And this is, in my opinion another reason why the jury convicted him, his evidence was simply wrong and once someone is shown to have been wrong on a number of issues human nature says you start to doubt the rest of what they say.

Rightly or wrongly.



Re Time and timings---some information from the trial transcript:

If the bus arrived at 8:19 and sunset was about 8:30 with dark just after 9:00 this seems plausible.

[Spitfire, the two witnesses who believe they saw Hanratty in South Kinmel Street were Margaret Walker and her neighbour Ivy Vincent.


Here is a section from the trial transcript where Hanratty attempts to deal with Mr Swanwick's probing about Time.
Mr Swanwick:Q:Was it a single decker or a double decker [bus]?
JH A:It was a double decker bus
Q What time would it be?
A. This would be about half past seven.It might not be the exact time[VolX111,p.61]
When Mr Swanwick asked him about his arrival in Rhyl,hanratty refused even to guess the time:
Q,You told us when you arrived in Rhyl it was dark: is that right?
A.No, I did not say that.
Q What did you say?
A. I said it got dark towards evening.
Q.What time did you arrive in Rhyl?
A. I am not sure.It was August time.It don't get dark till late.
Q What sort of time would you put it? I will help you by telling you that according to my diary the sun set at Liverpool at 8.30
A. What in August?
A. At that time,21st August [sic 22nd]
A.Would it?
Q. Can you give us any idea of the time you got to Rhyl?
A.Off-hand I cannot.If I was to say a time it would not be fair ,because you would cross examine me and I am not sure of the exact time.
Q I only want an approximate time if you can give it.A, I could not because I did not time it [Vol.X1V,p.11]

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats,

I think that's exactly what you'd expect from a busy seaside resort, contrasted to 'out in the sticks'. But as you keep pointing out, the Rhyl evidence only consists of those really dubious, unreliable, eyewitness accounts.

KR,
Vic.

Unlike William Nudds ,Roy Langdale ,Trower et al

[Victor]

10 other people came forward eventually to say they had seen him in Rhyl that day. Nobody ever came forward from Dorney Reach, Marsh Lane ,The Taplow Inn, or from around Deadman's Hill to say they had seen Hanratty .

Hi Nats,

I think that's exactly what you'd expect from a busy seaside resort, contrasted to 'out in the sticks'. But as you keep pointing out, the Rhyl evidence only consists of those really dubious, unreliable, eyewitness accounts.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Graham,
I have photocopies in front of me of the rough notes taken by Kleinman within the hour of Hanratty changing his alibi,during his trial in Bedford, to say he took the bus to Rhyl.You are quite right about him being smartly dressed in Rhyl e.g. [as posted previously ]He is asked by Kleinman [his solicitor]what he was wearing in Rhyl-'the double breasted striped suit' he answered.[ Trevor Dutton described the clothing by the young man he saw who tried to sell him a gold watch in Rhyl as 'a dark jacket or coat with a light grey stripe'.
A little further down the page he is asked what he had with him and he answers " [I] left the little hyde leather case.Landlady about 50 like my mother [asked her] Could I leave the case I will pick it up later ?'

True it could have been anyone but when put together with the statements from other witnesses it appears to me to be Hanratty who Dutton saw.

[NickB]

Larman, Walker and Vincent discussed on the thread here.

[GUT]

G'day Spitfire

Hanratty himself said that he left Liverpool at about 7.30 pm, but the last bus from Liverpool left at 6.00 pm and arrived in Rhyl at 8.19 pm.

And this is, in my opinion another reason why the jury convicted him, his evidence was simply wrong and once someone is shown to have been wrong on a number of issues human nature says you start to doubt the rest of what they say.

Rightly or wrongly.

He said it was dark by the time he found accommodation (digs)

If the bus arrived at 8:19 and sunset was about 8:30 with dark just after 9:00 this seems plausible.

[Spitfire]

I have looked at the times of sunset etc for 22 August 2014 which gives sunset as being 20.24 and civil twilight ending at 21.02.

At the trial Mr Swanwick's diary gave sunset as 20.30, which if correct would give a time of 21.08 as the time when civil twilight ended and it became 'dark'.

[Spitfire]

Have I got this right?

Mr Larman says he saw someone who looked like Hanratty at about 7.30 pm on Tuesday 22 August 1961 and who asked where he could get digs for the night. This person who looked like Hanratty had no luggage. Mr Larman sent him to Mrs Jones at Ingledene.

Mrs Walker says she saw someone (without luggage) at 7.30 pm who looked like Hanratty and who asked for digs.

Mrs Ivy Walker corroborates this, by saying she saw the man, who looked like Hanratty, leave Mrs Walker's house and come to her house to ask for digs.

Hanratty himself said that he left Liverpool at about 7.30 pm, but the last bus from Liverpool left at 6.00 pm and arrived in Rhyl at 8.19 pm. He said it was dark by the time he found accommodation (digs).

Can someone do a timeline from 8.19 pm onwards which would help illustrate the strengths of Hanratty's alibi?

[Graham]

Hi Nats,

I think you have to consider that Rhyl in August 1961 would have been teeming with people of all ages. Hanratty, who was well-groomed and usually smartly dressed, could have been one of dozens of similarly-attired young men around the streets of Rhyl at that time. It was an age of conformity in dress-style - 'sharp' suits, white shirts, dark ties, short hair. Just like Hanratty.

With regard to Mrs Dinwoody, as has been pointed out many times, the police made a hash of her interview when they showed her just the one photograph - that of James Hanratty.

As far as Dorney Reach is concerned, Jean Justice (for whatever reasons, profit being the main one in my opinion) was "convinced" that Alphon was the A6 killer, so went to some length to 'prove' his, Alphon's, presence in the area. I have always thought that the apparent sightings in the area of someone who might have been Alphon were manufactured. Mrs Lanz, the licensee of The Old Station Inn at Taplow, claimed according to Justice to have seen Alphon (or an Alphon look-alike) in her pub on the evening of the crime. But is there anyone who still believes that Alphon was either the killer or even implicitly associated with the A6 Case? His presence in the Case was purely coincidental - he was a manipulative chancer, and saw the possibility of making a few bob out of it, once he had been eliminated from police inquiries. I am certain that if Justice's suspect had been James Hanratty, then Justice would have produced 'evidence' for Hanratty's presence in the area.

As far as Deadman's Hill is concerned, it was pitch dark, no-one (apart from John Kerr) was around, at least not until the passing farm-worker Sydney Burton saw the two bodies in the lay-by at about 6.30am, when it was daylight, and told Kerr. The only possible way that anyone in that Morris Minor could have been seen would be if another car had driven into the lay-by; and I am certain that if this had happened, Valerie would have mentioned it.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Victor: 10 people eventually came forward from Rhyl and two from Liverpool [Mrs Dinwoody's granddaughter supported by her friend because they both remembered going into Liverpool centre on the 22nd to buy dress material returning about 4 pm on the 22nd -the granddaughter is said to have recognised his profile picture out of several others immediately the police officer showed her it.Mrs Dinwoody at first maintained it was Tuesday she saw Hanratty then she was persuaded it 'must have been ' Monday by Acott .Later on that day [except in Trevor Dutton's case when it was the Wednesday morning near Rhyl's Barclay's Bank] , 10 other people came forward eventually to say they had seen him in Rhyl that day. Nobody ever came forward from Dorney Reach, Marsh Lane ,The Taplow Inn, or from around Deadman's Hill to say they had seen Hanratty .

[Victor]

Hi Del Boy,

Even Acott knew that as a fact and called for skull caps to be worn..which was ignored by the officers who organized that parade.

Yet Acott was present on the Valerie Storie parade the next day and didn't utter a dickie bird about skull caps.

Acott called for skull caps to be available, if needed, and they were but Kleinman didn't request them or challenge the ID parade at all, so they weren't necessary.

Yet Hanratty's face was all over the papers at the time and nobody ever came forward from Slough, Buckinghamshire, Bedford or anywhere else to say they had seen him.

Hi Nats,

It's hardly surprising that nobody came forward from the sticks to say they'd seen a wanted rapist and murderer hanging around, but that might be because he was lying low!

KR,
Vic.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Sorry do not see what all the intrigue is about..
Valerie admitted on camera, that she made a mistake in identification initially, but it does not alter the fact, that she says positively. that she recognised Hanratty, the moment she saw him, he knew I knew, and he was finished.
She maintained that throughout the trail , and ever since...that the right man was hanged, and DNA, even if flaws are present is a massive pointer to guilt, for gods sake how much is ''reasonable doubt''?
That's my take on it..simplification ....
Regards Richard.

[NickB]

Natalie,

I take your points, but there is a case to be made against every witness. Including Mrs Dunwoody, who said of her sighting: “It was definitely the Monday”.

Even if there were further prosecution witnesses who recognised him after his photos were published, there was no impetus for them to come forward as he had already been convicted.