A6 Rebooted

[Graham]

Nudds he told such dreadful lies it made one gasp and close ones eyes

Nudds he told such dreadful lies,
It made one gasp and stretch one's eyes.
Now Flo, who from her earliest youth
Had held a strict regard for truth
Attempted to be believe old Nuddsie,
But had to admit he was a dud, see.

Sincerest apologies to the marvellous Hillaire Belloc.

Graham

[Graham]

But seriously though, and I've suggested this before, I think it is even money that James Hanratty suffered from confabulation, a condition in which the mind concocts, quite innocently, false or distorted memories. There is no intention to lie, it is just that the sufferer completely believes the fabrication and would probably even pass a polygraph test. In the witness box, when giving evidence, JH frequently became very indignant when his responses were challenged, and seemed not to appreciate that he'd been caught out.

I repeat, this is purely a suggestion, nothing more.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Talking of 'porkies' or 'limited minds and imaginations' or 'confabulation' lets begin to talk about Basil Acott and Kenneth Oxford whose 'deeply flawed' investigation into the A6 murder would be farcical if it were not so tragic ,a trial one of the longest in legal history which left more questions than answers.
Staying for now with Kenneth Oxford ,then Chief Constable of Merseyside ,later knighted, the attached front page of the Sun shows a picture of Margaret Thatcher and it points to her initial role in the great 'cover up' by police and state over the Hillsborough disaster that lasted 25 years.Margaret Thatcher was informed four days after the tragedy by letter sent on the advice of Kenneth Oxford that a 'key factor in causing the disaster was that a large number of fans had turned up without tickets' -moreover the same letter approved by same Kenneth Oxford went on ,a senior police officer[?] was 'deeply ashamed to say ' that police were 'deeply ashamed to say that it was drunken Liverpool fans who caused the disaster' .No sooner did the Sun newspaper get wind of these views than they posted their vile headline blaming these 96 victims of their own deaths. We now know these were all lies,including the lies told by other police officers at the time reported in the national media only very recently.So the question deserves consideration :to what extent may Kenneth Oxford have been knighted for his 'concoctions' or was it a condition known as 'confabulation' that caused such aberrations from the truth?

[Natalie Severn]

Ha Ha Graham - love that rhyme -pure genius!

[Natalie Severn]

Nudds he told such dreadful lies,
It made one gasp and stretch one's eyes.
Now Flo, who from her earliest youth
Had held a strict regard for truth
Attempted to be believe old Nuddsie,
But had to admit he was a dud, see.

Sincerest apologies to the marvellous Hillaire Belloc.

Graham

Brilliant!

[caz]

Really do disagree Caz. Most people on the street outside Lime Street Station would be heading for the centre from places like Scotland Road and its environs-as many still do today .

'Most' people, Nats? What about all the rail passengers arriving at Lime Street along with Hanratty, from other parts of the country?

Besides after a train arrives left luggage offices can be quite busy and are not the usual places one would ask directions.

Quite the opposite, I'd have thought. If Hanratty was leaving stuff with left luggage so he'd have less to cart round while looking for Carlton or Talbot Road, the most obvious person to ask would be the left luggage man, as he was handing over his bags for that express purpose. How long do you think it would have taken to ask and get a response? Ten seconds?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

OK Caz--here is what I think:
maybe Gillbanks did try to find him .Maybe Aspinall was 'unavailable'
But lets picture how this ex Liverpool policeman Gillbanks might have come across to James' ex jail pals like Aspinall .
Imaginary conversation between Gillbanks and Aspinall : Gillbanks :" Well if it isn't one of my old 'cases' - put you away for a few years back in 1957 didn't we -how you getting on mate? Are you familiar with a James Hanratty because James is in very deep do do at the minute - up on a murder charge he is and you know what that means don't you Aspinall -now are you willing to help him 'cos Jimmy says it was you he has been looking everywhere for on 22nd August 1961 because you told him you would sell on some dodgy stuff for him? Still in that line are you? Making a bit of profit like ?etc etc
Its more than likely that as soon as Aspinall got wind the law wanted to speak to him you wouldn't have seen him for dust.

But that rather misses the point, Nats. Aspinall wouldn't have known if Hanratty was looking for him, or why, and any such search was abandoned anyway, so what good would it do for Gillbanks to speak to him about it? Gillbanks merely had to get confirmation (not necessarily from Aspinall himself) that the same Aspinall who had served time with Hanratty was living, or had lived, in a Carlton or Talbot Road, just as Hanratty had claimed. In short, Gillbanks needed to establish that Hanratty could genuinely have hoped to find Aspinall at such an address and wasn't lying about this. Reasonable doubt, Nats.

Unless Gillbanks was lazy or incompetent, I can only assume he too had to abandon the search, on discovering that Aspinall had never lived at such an address. He wasn't likely to publicise the fact if he was working for the defence. The prosecution would have been able to put the whole Carlton/Talbot Road fantasy down to a fake alibi obtained from someone with a completely different accent who had genuinely asked in the sweet shop for Tarleton Street.

Love,

Caz
X

[Natalie Severn]

Unless Gillbanks was lazy or incompetent, I can only assume he too had to abandon the search, on discovering that Aspinall had never lived at such an address. He wasn't likely to publicise the fact if he was working for the defence.

X

But Caz-An ex-cop like Gillbanks who had worked in Liverpool for 30 years would very likely be known amongst Liverpool wide boys given jail terms.He wouldn't need to 'publicise' the fact as you put it IMO.
Also,regarding Hanratty confusing road names: I myself have had a tendency -throughout my life -to mix up both people's names and road names .Its a trait in my family on my father's side whose mother always mixed up the names of her two daughter in laws-Jean[my mum] . and Edythe my aunt .My nan always referred to them both as 'Edie Jean'-its a kind of dyslexia with names .

[Spitfire]

Besides after a train arrives left luggage offices can be quite busy and are not the usual places one would ask directions.

According to Foot, two tickets were issued for luggage on 22 August 1961 which hardly makes it a hive of activity that would prevent a customer from asking for some directions.

[Graham]

Hi Nats,

with regard to dishonest coppers. The A6 Crime was one of the most horrendous in modern British history, and Acott and his team would have been under terrific pressure from the Home Office, via their superiors at Scotland Yard, to come up with a result. It may well be that Acott was a little economical with the entire truth, to coin a phrase, but had he stood in court and come out with some real porkies, then I think Mr Sherrard's and the judge's reaction would have been a lot stronger than it actually was. And of course lying in the witness box was and is a criminal offence (if you're caught out, that is) and I don't think Acott would have risked his career by telling a real whopper. Which does not mean to say that I think Acott was an exemplary pillar of society, but he made his name by nicking cop-killer Guenther Podola, and for that was a hero at the time.

The Hillsborough tragedy is altogether different, and seems to be the knee-jerk reaction of senior police personnel by the sound of it. Not confabulation in any sense. I suppose it's good (but a little too late for the 96 dead and their families) that one senior officer has at least come clean.

I know it's only fiction, even if inspired fiction, but I always think of 'The Godfather' and the bent copper played by Sterling Hayden, in with the Solozzo Gang up to his neck, and no-one on the 'right' side of the law doing anything about it.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Graham.I think that after Valerie failed to identify Alphon ,Acott and Oxford turned to the next occupant of the Vienna Hotel and where things failed to fit ,fitted the case round Hanratty.I am really sorry but I no longer have the transparencies but may ask if I can re borrow them.Feel sure they are on here somewhere ! They contradict the police claim about Hanratty using the words like kip -there a few more in the same vein .However it was mostly Acotts 'omissions' or withholding of evidence that concerns me like Mr Lee's evidence and Margaret Thomson's and her neighbour .
Cheers
Norma

[NickB]

It may well be that Acott was a little economical with the entire truth, to coin a phrase, but had he stood in court and come out with some real porkies, then I think Mr Sherrard's and the judge's reaction would have been a lot stronger than it actually was.

Sherrard’s reaction was pretty strong!

[NickB]

In 2 weeks time Peter Hain is retiring from frontline politics. His book ‘Mistaken Identity’ about George Davis, Patrick Meehan and James Hanratty (and probably himself) is still available.

[caz]

But Caz-An ex-cop like Gillbanks who had worked in Liverpool for 30 years would very likely be known amongst Liverpool wide boys given jail terms.He wouldn't need to 'publicise' the fact as you put it IMO.

I think you misunderstood my point, Nats. I merely meant that after Gillbanks tried to track down the three fences and failed to get anything useful from them, he would surely then have sought to confirm Aspinall a) had indeed served time with Hanratty in Lewes prison, and b) had (or used to have) an address in a Carlton or Talbot Road in the Liverpool area. This is not rocket science and shouldn't have been beyond the abilities and scope of an experienced local ex-cop to check out, even back in '61. Very obviously he didn't publicise anything about such an enquiry (because nothing has come down to us), which means he either didn't bother trying (lazy and incompetent - or uncaring?) or the results were unfavourable to Hanratty.

Also,regarding Hanratty confusing road names: I myself have had a tendency -throughout my life -to mix up both people's names and road names .Its a trait in my family on my father's side whose mother always mixed up the names of her two daughter in laws-Jean[my mum] . and Edythe my aunt .My nan always referred to them both as 'Edie Jean'-its a kind of dyslexia with names .

Oh I have no doubt Hanratty got confused over road names, as we probably all do from time to time. That's not a crime and he openly admitted it by not remembering whether he was meant to be looking for Carlton or Talbot Road. But was he misremembering the road Aspinall had told him about, or the road asked for in the sweet shop ("Tarleton") by someone who gave him this information as a favour?

Gillbanks should at the very least have discovered the probable answer to this one. Yet he said nothing.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I think that after Valerie failed to identify Alphon ,Acott and Oxford turned to the next occupant of the Vienna Hotel and where things failed to fit ,fitted the case round Hanratty.

Hi Nats,

Could you expand on this and explain the timeline and mechanics by which Acott and Oxford thought they could pick on a man totally unconnected to the murder, just because he happened to be the 'next occupant' of the Vienna Hotel, and not only fit the case round him but hope to secure a conviction?

Presumably you think there was a second, independent conspiracy already being acted out by Hanratty's treacherous criminal associates, who had planted the murder weapon and Hanratty's unwashed hanky on the bus, and also the cartridge cases in the room where he had stayed the night before the crime, making it a coincidental doddle for Acott and Oxford to do the rest?

And then of course they had Hanratty himself playing right into both sets of hands by having the same blood group as the rapist; unwittingly choosing to stay in the same hotel as Alphon, making the job easier for both groups of conspirators; having no watertight alibi for the actual murder night and lying about his whereabouts; and finally being identified by the surviving victim as the same man who had spent hours with her in a confined space, talking to her, raping her and shooting her.

And 40 years later the DNA tests conspired to make him look guilty all over again, by incriminating him and no other individual for the murder, rape and disposal of the gun.

You seem to want to turn a case that was already dripping with coincidences into one that would have positively sagged with them.

Love,

Caz
X