A6 Rebooted

[Natalie Severn]

Ha Ha Ha Spitfire-have you got your wig on straight......... Question is not a legal one ,question is whether the CPS would ever proceed with a prosecution case based on the eye witness evidence of Valerie Storie today and they never ever would and you know that full well ! Don't be ridiculous .[btw you were quite wrong about my source.It is the book entitled 'Dispatches from the Dark Side : on Torture and the Death of Justice .' Gareth Peirce August 2010 .

[Spitfire]

Ha Ha Ha Spitfire-have you got your wig on straight......... Question is not a legal one ,question is whether the CPS would ever proceed with a prosecution case based on the eye witness evidence of Valerie Storie today and they never ever would and you know that full well ! Don't be ridiculous .[btw you were quite wrong about my source.It is the book entitled 'Dispatches from the Dark Side : on Torture and the Death of Justice .' Gareth Peirce August 2010 .

You said Valerie Storie's evidence would not be allowed in any UK court, you did not say no prosecution would ever be brought on such evidence.

I have posted a link above which clearly has the collocation quoted by you and is dated 24 Sept 2009.

[caz]

Caz, The Liverpool visit appears to have been jointly planned by both Hanratty and France who had lost his job at the Rehearsal Club and had become desperately hard up .He appears to have had some success fencing bits and pieces for Hanratty but the pair of them seem to have thought it best for Hanratty to go up North to see if he could sell the rings/gold watch etc in Liverpool etc .France didn't want Hanratty telling his wife the real reason for the trip was to sell stolen goods-so they agreed to tell her it was about visiting Hanratty's aunt. France's expertise appears in the past to have been in stealing lead from the roofs of houses , not fencing -though I believe it was through fencing he got to know William Ewer whose shop sold antiques a ten minute walk away from France's flat.

So the answer to my question is yes, Hanratty was lying again. Thanks Nats.

btw Caz -did you fail to see the link between Hanratty sending a telegram from Liverpool to the France's and him previously telling Charlotte France he would send her a telegram rather than a post card?

No, I saw it. I'm just not sure what it proves. Did Charlotte state on oath the date of this conversation about a promised telegram, or was it another of Hanratty's own claims?

Did you miss my question about the taxi? What's your explanation for Hanratty's fruitless bus ride up the Scotland Road to ask for directions in a sweet shop, when he could have got a taxi at Lime Street to take him directly to his desired destination?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I think the moral of this story is be careful what you wish for.

The DNA tests would not have been done without Hanratty's defenders calling for them, in their belief that a grave miscarriage of justice was just waiting to be exposed by the results.

Had those results favoured Hanratty I have no doubt whatsoever that the tests would not now be described as 'a complete joke', or subject to 'gross contamination', or conducted by incompetent or corrupt forensic scientists.

Love,

Caz
X

[Natalie Severn]

Caz -Hanratty outside the station asked several local people if they could direct him to Carlton or Tarlton Road and was directed to Scotland Road - a ten to twenty minute walk away depending on where the road was .He took the bus for a few stops .Most Liverpool taxis left Central Station not Lime Street station-its still not easy to get a taxi from Lime Street and if you are unsure of the name of the road you are going to better to go on the bus.

[Spitfire]

I think the moral of this story is be careful what you wish for.

The DNA tests would not have been done without Hanratty's defenders calling for them, in their belief that a grave miscarriage of justice was just waiting to be exposed by the results.

Had those results favoured Hanratty I have no doubt whatsoever that the tests would not now be described as 'a complete joke', or subject to 'gross contamination', or conducted by incompetent or corrupt forensic scientists.

Love,

Caz
X

I would have described myself as a 'Hanratty Defender' until the DNA tests confirmed his guilt.

I felt that there were considerable difficulties with the prosecution case caused by the mis-identification by Valerie Storie of an innocent man in the first identification parade. I also felt that Hanratty's alleged encounter with Mrs Dinwoodie would have been sufficient to sow the seeds of doubt in the minds of the jury.

However, the only really rational explanation for Hanratty's DNA being detected on the hanky and the knicker fragment, his lying about staying the night of 22 August in Liverpool, the spent cartridge cases being found in his room at the Vienna, the gun and live ammunition being found in one of his favourite hiding places under the back seat of a bus and the identification of Hanratty by Valerie Storie and the other Redbridge witnesses, is that James Hanratty was the A6 killer.

[Natalie Severn]

I would have described myself as a 'Hanratty Defender' until the DNA tests confirmed his guilt.

I felt that there were considerable difficulties with the prosecution case caused by the mis-identification by Valerie Storie of an innocent man in the first identification parade. I also felt that Hanratty's alleged encounter with Mrs Dinwoodie would have been sufficient to sow the seeds of doubt in the minds of the jury.

However, the only really rational explanation for Hanratty's DNA being detected on the hanky and the knicker fragment, his lying about staying the night of 22 August in Liverpool, the spent cartridge cases being found in his room at the Vienna, the gun and live ammunition being found in one of his favourite hiding places under the back seat of a bus and the identification of Hanratty by Valerie Storie and the other Redbridge witnesses, is that James Hanratty was the A6 killer.

Yes Spitfire -You may be interested in one of the first cases where LCN DNA was thrown out of court as being unreliable and had been subject to contamination.
But we now have quite a few more such cases but a read of Judge Weir's words on LCN DNA testing here are highly instructive and should urge us to be extremely cautious as they are particularly apposite with regard to the 2002 LCN DNA findings re Hanratty's DNA on the fragments of clothing they used for the early 2000 LCN DNA tests :

Professor Dan Krane, a DNA expert from Ohio.
S IIMA

Professor Dan Krane gave expert scientific evidence for the defence
E IIMA
"Low Copy Number tests are much more prone to flexible interpretation, than with the conventional tests.
"Because of its great sensitivity, there are much greater concerns about the persistence of DNA and its ability to be transferred from one article to another.
"It's just too easy for contamination to occur, or for DNA to have become associated with an article through very innocent, very old contact."
LCN DNA testing has been validated only by the FSS's own scientists, rather than by outside experts, and the defence's continual questioning of the method was aided by a test result from a failed bomb explosion in Lisburn, in April 1998, that Sean Hoey was also charged with.
When the defused device was analysed using the FSS's technique, the strongest initial DNA profile was found to be that of a teenage boy from Nottinghamshire.
S IBOX

The results could be ambiguous


Sheila Willis
Forensic scientist
E IBOX
In an attempt to bolster their case, the prosecution called Peter Gill, one of the inventors of the LCN technique. But under cross examination he said some of the results put forward by the prosecution were "valueless", and that LCN was a complex area in which there were "shades of grey".
That led Mr Justice Weir to say: "When this evidence is presented on behalf of the prosecution, no-one talks about it in terms of shades of grey. It's put forward as evidence I can rely on."

[Graham]

What's A Life Worth?

There are those who still cling to the belief that Peter Alphon profited to the tune of £5000, coughed up by William Ewer, to carry out the A6 crime. Value-wise, (never easy to calculate over a lengthy period of time), £5000 in 1961 would be worth approx. £120000 in 2015. Nice work if you can get it.

In 1966 there was a gangland feud between the Krays and the Richardsons. Ronnie Kray had reason to believe that his 'business manager', a Mr Leslie Payne, was betraying the Krays and so offered £500 to Jack 'The Hat' McVitie to kill Mr Payne. £500 in 1966 would be worth approx. £9000 today. McVitie accepted the offer, but unfortunately failed to bump off his intended victim.

Now if anyone knew the absolute monetary value of a human life it would be Ronnie Kray, and I suggest that his offer of £500 (5 years after the A6 crime) is much more realistic than William Ewer, an up-market junk-shop owner and sometime antique-dealer, forking out ten times that amount for the 'breaking up' of the relationship between Michael Gregsten and Valerie Storie. Where on earth would Ewer be able to lay his hands on the equivalent of £120000? It also seems to me that as Alphon definitely [U]had/U] received £5000 from some unknown source or the other (according to Paul Foot), if the money came from Ewer then Mr Ewer had either rather foolishly paid the entire sum up-front or, if Alphon really had been involved, more realistically been blackmailed by Alphon who would probably have been very good at that sort of thing.

I am aware that it's on record that Ewer bought at auction at least one valuable painting for an unknown client or clients, but presumably he was acting only as proxy and it was the client's money he was spending. I very seriously believe, and would need a huge amount of convincing otherwise, that Ewer was neither the notorious "Mr X" nor had access to funds which allowed him to cough up £5000 to an unknown braggart and liar like Peter Alphon. Or anyone else, for that matter.

Incidentally, Jack McVitie, having failed to blow Mr Payne to Kingdom Come, quite understandably incurred the wrath of Ronnie Kray, who did pay the £500 up-front and naturally wanted it back. Plus taking his revenge, of course. McVitie was lured to a Kray property where Reggie Kray pinned him to the floor by means of a long stiletto through the throat. This grisly act inspired the Monty Python team to come up with the "He nailed my head to a coffee-table" sketch.

Graham

[Spitfire]

Professor Dan Krane, a DNA expert from Ohio.
S IIMA

Professor Dan Krane gave expert scientific evidence for the defence
E IIMA
[/B]

I can see that the hanky and the knicker fragment could have been contaminated, and so could the experts for the defence and prosecution in the Court of Appeal, the judges accepted that there could have been a possibility of contamination.

The hanky was stained with mucus (snot) and the knicker fragment was stained with seminal fluid and it is not unreasonable for me to assume that where DNA has been detected it is likely to be that of he who blew his nose on the hanky and he who ejaculated causing the seminal fluid stains.

If Woffinden and Bindman want to instruct Dan E Krane and Mr Krane wants to contribute to the debate then I will read or listen to anything he says.

As Woffinden and/or Bindman have not instructed Mr Krane (nor any other DNA expert) his views on another case with other exhibits and another factual matrix have no relevance to this debate IMHO.

[Spitfire]

There are those who still cling to the belief that Peter Alphon profited to the tune of £5000, coughed up by William Ewer, to carry out the A6 crime. Value-wise, (never easy to calculate over a lengthy period of time), £5000 in 1961 would be worth approx. £120000 in 2015. Nice work if you can get it.

To see how much we are talking about in 1961 when the figure of £5,000 is mentioned, the new supercar of the age the E-type Jaguar went on sale in 1961 at a price of £2,090 for the roadster and £2,160 for the fixed head coupe.

[Graham]

To see how much we are talking about in 1961 when the figure of £5,000 is mentioned, the new supercar of the age the E-type Jaguar went on sale in 1961 at a price of £2,090 for the roadster and £2,160 for the fixed head coupe.

Yes, and the average UK price of a house was just £2770. Maybe Ewer flogged off a couple from his property portfolio to pay Alphon.....

Graham

PS: out of interest, 70000 of the 'most beautiful car in the world' (Enzo Ferrari's words) were made, and just under 6000 are still road-worthy. The occasional rusting wreck comes on the market, and I believe a non-runner went for £85000 or so the other week.

[Natalie Severn]

I can see that the hanky and the knicker fragment could have been contaminated, and so could the experts for the defence and prosecution in the Court of Appeal, the judges accepted that there could have been a possibility of contamination.

The hanky was stained with mucus (snot) and the knicker fragment was stained with seminal fluid and it is not unreasonable for me to assume that where DNA has been detected it is likely to be that of he who blew his nose on the hanky and he who ejaculated causing the seminal fluid stains.

If Woffinden and Bindman want to instruct Dan E Krane and Mr Krane wants to contribute to the debate then I will read or listen to anything he says.

As Woffinden and/or Bindman have not instructed Mr Krane (nor any other DNA expert) his views on another case with other exhibits and another factual matrix have no relevance to this debate IMHO.

How on earth can you presume to know what Bindman has done or not done,Spitfire ?

Just taking the issue of seminal fluid that you refer to
: 1] a broken vial was found in 1991 in the same drawer in the police lab in South London as several other items including the knicker piece,protected only by paper manilla envelopes.It was suggested that this broken vial had contained the Dec 29th 1961 "wash' of Hanratty's trousers to separate seminal fluid from the trouser cloth and that was on the interior of the trousers.No other suggestion was ever put forward to my knowledge for what had been in the broken vial.

2.The handkerchief was Hanratty's and had been kept in a Bedford Police Station . It was found 50 miles from the murder itself on a 36A bus that stopped -and still stops - at the bottom of Charles France's road and it was found on the very day that Hanratty had sent his telegram from Liverpool-24th August 1961 .
Glad to hear you would be prepared to listen to Professor Krane btw ---he is after all one of the world's leading LCN DNA scientists-if not THE leading LCN DNA scientist -but meanwhile it might instructive too to listen to what a few of the equally eminent judges such as Judge Weir have to say about LCN DNA tests [and other legal experts -as well as Professor Krane -and what they say about LCN DNA results that in some cases have caused innocent people to be put away in jail on totally false evidence!

[caz]

Caz -Hanratty outside the station asked several local people if they could direct him to Carlton or Tarlton Road and was directed to Scotland Road -

Hi Nats,

Did any of these people come forward then? Or was this another unsupported claim by Hanratty? Tarleton Street is right in the centre of the city, so don't you find it a little odd that Hanratty had to ask 'several local people', none of whom could help him, and was finally sent off in the wrong direction?

Love,

Caz
X

[Natalie Severn]

So the answer to my question is yes, Hanratty was lying again. Thanks Nats.

Love,

Caz
X

But vitally and importantly not the only one who was lying Caz !
Ever seen the transcripts of the ' alterations' i.e. the deletions and substitutions that modern forensic handwriting tests revealed had been extensively tampered with by police-presumably by Det.Supt. Oxford who took the notes of Hanratty's original witness statement on the night of his arrest in Blackpool .These proved Hanratty told the truth about much that had been 'altered' in his statement -a pity that such altered witness statements only came to light in 2002 when modern forensic hand-writing tests made that possible.I wonder what the jury would have made of those had they come to light during the trial?

[Graham]

Natalie,

I'd like to see the transcripts of the alterations as claimed, so perhaps you'd be kind enough to post them on here?

Thanks,

Graham