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  • #91
    Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel
    James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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    #221 6th July 2007, 07:35 AM
    Graham
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    Been away for a while, so a bit out of touch with this thread.

    There is little doubt that Hanratty's defence team was dissatisfied with the manner in which the ID parades were conducted, but somewhat mysteriously they appeared not to do anything about it. At the Stoke Mandeville parade Hanratty's solicitor Emmanuel Kleinmann was actually present, and commented about his dyed hair 'that showed up badly' under the lights, but made no objection. VS made everyone speak ('I am thinking') and it took her 20 minutes to pick out Hanratty. I'm no expert in criminal law, but I'd say that even in 1961 there must have been some doubt about the fairness and even possibly the legality of that parade.

    Regarding Charles France, another point to make about him is regarding how the police made the link between 'Ryan' and 'Hanratty'. From what I recall of Paul Foot (haven't got my books with me) Acott and Oxford paid a call to Charles France, and the day after they announced that the man they were seeking was James Hanratty. Could it be, therefore, that France's suicide was down to remorse that he'd effectively fingered his mate and sent him to his death?

    Cheers,

    Graham


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    #222 7th July 2007, 03:18 PM
    caz
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Steve
    Hello Caz

    Here is another interesting coincidence. Tarleton Street is quite an unusual name in this country, I can't find many other Tarleton Streets. However, one of the towns that does own a Tarleton Street is Rhyl in North Wales. Coincidence or Not?

    Another point on Tarleton Street is that it is located to the south of Lime Street railway station and if Hanratty set off looking for it in the direction of Scotland Road he was going in completely the wrong direction. Scotland Road is north of Lime Street. You would have expected him to first ask directions before he left the railway station, or perhaps just outside the station. Anyone local would have pointed him in the opposite direction to Scotland Road.

    Kind regards,
    Steve



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Graham

    Regarding Tarleton Street, Steve is also dead right in saying that Hanratty was going in totally the opposite direction when he claimed to have been looking for it and called in at the sweetshop for directions. I would have to say that the name 'Tarleton Street' impinged itself in his mind during a visit to Rhyl, and that he produced this name when concocting his spurious Liverpool alibi.

    Graham


    Hi Steve and Graham,

    I've been away too - at least from this particular thread. I'm finding it more and more difficult to keep up with all the topics which interest me. And it drives me nuts when certain people who assume I have all the time in the world accuse me of staying away on purpose. I know you won't read anything into my absence from this topic, which is refreshing I must say.

    So are we saying that Hanratty knew there were Tarleton Streets in both Rhyl and Liverpool when claiming his Scotland Road alibi? Either way that would appear to be some coincidence, if the street name itself was fairly uncommon. I'm trying to work out if this fact worked against him regardless of whether he knew it or not.

    And no Steve, I wouldn't expect a man to ask for directions until he had gone so far in the wrong one that he had got himself well and truly lost and had no other option. I'm talking from long experience on this one.

    Love,

    Caz
    X
    __________________
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    (For the person who informed me that Mike is far too young to have written the diary in 1955: no hired gorillas were harmed during the telling of this joke either.)



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    #223 7th July 2007, 03:36 PM
    Steve
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by caz

    And no Steve, I wouldn't expect a man to ask for directions until he had gone so far in the wrong one that he had got himself well and truly lost and had no other option. I'm talking from long experience on this one.

    Love,

    Caz
    X


    Hello Caz

    Have GPS systems finally ended the male/female conflict on the map-reading and asking for directions front?

    KR
    Steve


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    #224 7th July 2007, 03:45 PM
    Steve
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    Hi again Caz

    Here is the sensible answer to your very sensible (and relevant) question.

    I think the Rhyl Tarleton Street is probably just a coincidence, but I really don't know for sure. According to one account of Hanratty's visit to Liverpool he did actually ask a woman outside Lime Street Station for directions (please note here this is the sensible answer, so there are no unnecessary sexist comments at this point!) to Carlton Avenue and was told that it was a bus ride away in the direction of Scotland Road. By the time he arrived at the sweet shop the question had become Carlton or Tarleton Avenue. The lady in the shop advised him to go back to the town centre, Tarleton Avenue was in the opposite direction, which indeed it was (and still is.)

    Kind regards,
    Steve


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    #225 7th July 2007, 07:20 PM
    Graham
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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The thing is, Hanratty was almost illiterate and certainly inarticulate - probably 'special needs' would describe him in today's terminology. He didn't seem capable of making a coherent decision. I rather think that although he did go to Liverpool after 22nd August, the whole alibi regarding friends, and fencing jewellery, and asking for directions at a sweet-shop, was pure fabrication. Perhaps not an actual lie as such, but fabrication nevertheless.
    He had most certainly visited Rhyl some time before 22nd August - vide nicking Terry Evans' shoes - and I suggest that the name Tarleton Street was something he'd seen in Rhyl and it stuck in his mind. Chances are that it's just coincidence, pure and simple, that there actually is a Tarleton Street in Liverpool, and not the other way around. Once it was shown in court that his Liverpool 'alibi' wasn't going to fly, he changed it to the Rhyl 'alibi', weaving in his mind facts, faces and happenings from a previous visit to Rhyl. It has never been proved, and it probably never will be, that he was in Rhyl after 22nd August. No doubt he had also been in Liverpool some time before 22nd August, fencing stolen property, and staying with 'three friends' at an unidentifiable location, and he built his Liverpool 'alibi' around this. In addition, he described the digs he claimed to have stayed in at Rhyl after the 22nd August, but I believe he was using memories from his previous visit or visits.

    Joe Gillbanks, the PI employed by Hanratty's defence to follow up the Liverpool 'alibi', was a former Liverpool copper and nobody's fool, yet he was unable to establish as truth even one tiny facet of Hanratty's stories concerning both Liverpool and Rhyl after 22nd August 1961.

    Hanratty has often been described as a person who 'didn't tell lies', and I think that this is a fairly accurate summary of his personality, but not because he was Simon Pure honest, but because he lacked the ingenuity and invention to make up a lie. Had he been assessed using modern standards and techniques, he certainly wouldn't have hanged. But in 1961/2 he didn't stand a chance - the police had their man, and the Establishment needed to take its revenge.

    Why a man like Hanratty, a confessed burglar and petty crook, should suddenly have taken to murder and rape is a question to which there is probably no answer. He mixed with an assortment of underworld characters, and was doubtless influenced by them and their big talk. Unless, of course, there really is something mysterious and unexplained behind the whole case - which I don't rule out. I still think the key to the whole thing lies at the Vienna Hotel - one way or the other.

    Keep the posts coming, folks!

    Cheers,

    Graham


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    #226 9th July 2007, 05:08 PM
    caz
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    Hi Gents,

    He really was an intriguing character, wasn't he? Sounds to me like the kind of simple soul who might be talked into doing something particularly desperate and criminal, and 'out of character' as they say, by someone he looked up to - a bit like the awful Craig and Bentley affair perhaps. This was way beyond petty crookedness.

    Many thanks for the extra Carlton/Tarleton info, Steve. The first thing I would have asked Hanratty was why he wanted to find this address, what was his business there and did he get there in the end or give up. Did anyone ask, do you know?

    Love,

    Caz
    X
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    (For the person who informed me that Mike is far too young to have written the diary in 1955: no hired gorillas were harmed during the telling of this joke either.)



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    #227 9th July 2007, 09:59 PM
    Steve
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    Hi Caz

    The whole case was intriguing for sure and I agree with you about the Craig & Bentley similarities. Certainly it was beyond petty crookedness, but these crimes and criminals would be looked upon in a different light today.

    Hanratty's stated reason for trying to find Carlton/Tarelton was to meet up with some friends and to fence a stolen watch. He never did find these friends so set off looking for another contact in Rhyl.

    Best wishes,
    Steve


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    #228 9th July 2007, 10:14 PM
    Steve
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Graham
    Why a man like Hanratty, a confessed burglar and petty crook, should suddenly have taken to murder and rape is a question to which there is probably no answer.


    Hi Graham

    This is really a very pertinent question. Hanratty was making a lot of money from his burglaries. Enough to fund a good lifestyle. Living in hotels, buying a motor car and a new suit, and taking trips to Ireland was not what the common man did in the early 1960's. He even bragged to Acott about having enough money to give him the run around for a while. So why change his modus operandi? And what was to be earned from sticking up a Morris Minor in a cornfield? I think this was a point Hanratty himself made, a Rolls Royce might have been different, but Mike & Valerie in a Morris Minor couldn't even have funded him another night in a hotel. What really was the point? The only obvious answer is an easy dummy run. But then again why go to Dorney when Soho would have offered many more opportunities?

    Kind regards,
    Steve


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    #229 10th July 2007, 09:01 PM
    Graham
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    Hi Steve,

    No doubt at all that Hanratty liked the high life, and the frisson of mixing with what he perceived as big-time, glamorous crooks. The Rehearsal Club in Soho, which he frequented, was a meeting-place for low-life, wide boys, petty villains and so on. But for all that he knew the downside of criminality, and there were times when he was forced to rough it.

    Regarding his arrival at the cornfield, I've always found it rather interesting and suggestive that more than one locally-living witness claimed to have seen a man resembling Hanratty (or Alphon, depending upon your viewpoint) in the vicinity of Dorney Reach on at least one occasion before the stick-up and abduction. If true, and none of these sighting were ever verified, this really does add a certain dimension to the case - shortly after the trial it was suggested that Hanratty might have been sent to the cornfield.

    Cheers,

    Graham


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    #230 11th July 2007, 01:41 PM
    JBB
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    Hi

    Back again. The revealing of the photo/picture of the first falsely id person would reveal all and end all arguments in respect of the accuracy of Valerie. Her physical problems non-withstanding-if the person looks nothing like Hanratty/Alphon or the photo fit pictures, then it must beg questions. Interestingly Acott was not keen to go to much into this and I should have thought Sherrard should have insisted that the person be brought-you can do that in criminal law.

    The collapses of Charlotte and the uncooperation of Carole France with everyone including Police are interesting.

    Rape is about power/it is not about sex. Any clinical pyschologist would tell you that. Hanratty got sex without much problem-Carole France/Gladys etc. His learning difficulties did not restrict him there. He went with prostitutes etc. Thus why would he want to rape Valerie for sex? For power possibly but it is very rare that in rape they then shoot their victim. That actually reduces the control power pyschology. Strangle yes.

    I have always thought the defence did not do a good job-unlike Foot etc who did think they did. As above comments Sherrard should have insisted on many points to tacke the Police and the inconsistencies. In 2007 the defence team would have no qualms about doing that and going for Valerie but in those times even defences were deferential to the system.

    Against Hanratty points. but how thorough was Gillbanks. I suggest he was not and thus maybe there were people who did.
    No one to witness him walking around Scotland Road to the sweetshop or going back. No one on train going up or down from Liverpool.
    No one on bus going to and from Rhyl.

    I give you further thought pro Hanratty. How did Hanratty get to the field-Dorney reach-if by public transport then he would have had to walk a fair way from the bus/train etc. If by car where and how was it left etc?
    Etiher case -no one saw him at all ever during the day, there?

    I suspect this will never be known but Sherrard should have pursued this. The Police could not produce anyone to support their case in the above matters which would have been damning evidence of his appearance in the area on the day, and they were not adverse to producing witnesses such as Langdale to bolster the case when it suited them.

    The DNA revelation does not answer the inconsistencies which still run through the case. Jean Justice, who I did speak to when he was alive was a pasionate advocate of the case but his fascination with Alphon and his lifestyle muddied the waters of objectivity.

    I do not believe Hanratty did the murder but even if I go the other way there still remains the clear thought-why a couple on a dark night in a field in a remote area miles away from his London gangster haunts. He could have stuck up during a burglary where there was large money available in outer London, and he would have realised that a Morris Minor was not likely to contain wealthy occupants-in 2007, yes, are they are vintage cars. He knew about big cars such as the Jaguar which he had lifted once /Sunbeam/ etc and thus the relative value of them and the people likely to drive them then.
    atb

    larue

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    • #92
      Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel
      James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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      #231 11th July 2007, 03:03 PM
      Steve
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      Hello JBB

      I have just scanned through all of your posts on this subject and you make some very interesting points, clearly from the view point of Hanratty having been innocent of the crimes and a miscarriage of justice having taken place. I can see that you believe this with a passion.

      It is true that anyone who has studied this case (as you have done over a long period of time) cannot help but think or even believe that Hanratty was innocent and likewise that Alphon was possibly, even probably guilty. All the coincidences you mention start to stack up very quickly and Alphon was known to have been at a dog track in Slough on the night of the murder so could easily have reached the cornfield; it's probably no more than a 20 minute walk from where the dog track used to be. The money you mention would provide a motive for him. As far as I can tell from my studies of the case Alphon lacked a cast-iron alibi and Acott discounted him as a suspect on a number of tenous points. He was the first suspect, more than just a suspect, there is clear evidence that Acott believed Alphon to be guilty of the crime. He actually went as far as naming Alphon to the press as his man and Alphon only stopped being his man as soon as Miss Storie identified an Alphon look-alike at the identity parade.

      However, the DNA evidence really does prove beyond any doubt that Hanratty was guilty. The only thing that can ever change that is if someone in the future demonstrates that the DNA evidence was incorrect. Then the question of Hanratty's guilt becomes a viable question once more.

      Even given the certainty of the DNA evidence there are still very many aspects of this case that just defy logical explanation.

      Kind regards,
      Steve


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      #232 13th July 2007, 08:34 PM
      Graham
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      Hi Steve.

      If we accept the DNA (and I for one do) then Alphon was walking a tight-rope. All it needed was for Valerie to tap his shoulder at the ID parade, and Alphon was a dead man. His involvment in the case stems from his odd behaviour at the Alexandra Hotel - it may have been pure coincidence, but he did resemble the first Identikit picture based on Valerie's description of the killer. It almost seems as though he was on some kind of self-destruct kick.
      Michael Fogerty-Waul, who lived at Dorney Reach, swore black and blue that it was Alphon he'd seen in the vicinity of the cornfield a week or so before the abduction and murder. But of course Alphon very soon attracted the attention of powerful 'friends' in the shape of Jean Justice and Jeremy Fox, both of whom - Justice in particular - were pro-Hanratty, and Alphon milked them for all they were worth once he was off the hook.

      I've often wondered why Alphon was never hauled in for further questioning in the aftermath of Hanratty's execution. After all, much effort was expended in investigating Hanratty's Rhyl 'alibi'. Perhaps it was because Alphon always seemed to be one step ahead of the investigators - or was there some legal reason why he was never interviewed after the execution?

      Cheers,

      Graham


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      #233 15th July 2007, 04:47 PM
      Steve
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      Hi Graham

      Yes, if Valerie had picked him out at the ID parade instead of someone who looked like him Alphon would almost certainly have hanged for the crime. The case against him at that time was strong and the police would have had no need to look for another suspect, which would have meant Hanratty’s name would probably have never been linked with this crime. Apparently Valerie was upset at having made a mistake by picking an innocent man. The professional opinion was that she was well enough for the ID parade but I have my doubts.

      I always hoped that Alphon would have told the true story from his side before he died. This doesn’t seem to have happened, unless The Alphon Diaries appear at some future time. What interesting reading they would make, assuming he bothered to tell the truth.

      You make a good point about Alphon never having been re-interviewed by the police. It makes me think that there is some aspect of Alphon’s involvement in this that the police have never revealed, such as a cast-iron alibi that Acott chose not to reveal at the trial. As a matter of fact I’m certain that the full and true story has never been fully told and very probably never will be told.

      All the best,
      Steve


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      #234 15th July 2007, 09:27 PM
      Steve
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by strunt
      The Hanratty case, which even now remains a subject for debate despite the passing of many years and the Appeal hearing of 2002 with its emphasis on the DNA evidence, justifies its description by Bob Woffinden as the most fascinating case which there has ever been in British criminal history. This is because of the direct conflicts of evidence with no seeming reconciliation possible in many areas of the case. Although people cannot be blamed for jumping to the conclusion that Hanratty was guilty if they have heard of the DNA evidence but know little else about the case, the notion that somehow all other evidence must be ignored offends one's natural sense of justice and can surely only be accepted if in fact the DNA does turn out to prove conclusively ( as the Court of Appeal said ) that Hanratty must have been guilty.

      Does it prove that? I do not think so. The type of testing used is known as PCR ( Polymerase Chain Reaction ) and the Americans call it molecular photocopying. It depends on massive magnification of the tiniest samples and it is quite obvious that such a technique must be highly vulnerable to cross-contamination since one may have begun with the smallest amount imaginable. Nowadays detailed regulatuions require the most stringent handling procedures ( commonly as many as 50 different pairs of rubber gloves may apparently have to be used ) and it is stating the obvious to point out ( as the Criminal Cases Review Commission did point out but the Court of Appeal chose not to take any notice ) that in Hanratty ( where of course nobody in the 1960s had ever heard of forensic DNA save for a handful of very specialist scientists) procedures corresponding to the requirements of he regulations were not followed in any way. As there was plenty of mixing of items and indeed a broken and empty vial was found with the items when it was known that a vial of liquid containing a wash of Hanratty's trousers had been kept at the time, it is impossible to see how the evidential integrity of the crime samples can be relied upon. The Court of Appeal casually assumed that this must have been some other vial ( what? ) but made no comment upon what then was supposed to have become of the vial from the wash in question. Nor is the point about no other person's DNA being found a valid one. The knickers were not preserved as an entire garment but only a tiny fragment remained. Nobody can possibly know what was on the rest of the item. Furthermore, if the source of the DNA on the handkerchief was the mucus staining why did the usual RFLP method not pick this up. The fact is that PCR can pick up sweat and Hanratty appears to have handled that handkerchief during his evidence. It has always been agreed he sweated a good deal in the witness box. Surely the most that can be said about the DNA is that one possible explanation of it is that Hanratty was guilty but another is that it got there during storage and handling after the crime. It is equivocal.

      What about some of the other points in the case then? Surely the following are of significance:
      1. The Rhyl witnesses did not emerge, as Leonard Miller seems to think, as a result of much later campaigning. On the contrary, as soon as Hanratty put forward the Rhyl account they made statements to the police which Scotland Yard did not disclose to the defence or the court, or even to the prosecution for that matter.
      2. The cumulative weight to be attached to the alibi evidence surely cannot be casually brushed aside as Mr Miller thinks. It is obvious from the statements that there was a man answering Hanratty's description going round Rhyl asking for digs, seeking to sell stolen goods in the street etc. at the key time. It would be something of a coincidence if some other person whe happended by chance to answer his description had been doing these things in a small town in relation to which he happened to invent a lying story saying he was doing them in relation to exactly the same time. Nor has any such other person ever come forward.
      3. One of Hanratty's regular crimes was stealing cars. Shortly before his arrest he stole, for example, a Jaguar to order from a London street and drove it up to the north West. It seems far fetched that he would not know how to drive a Morris Minor.
      4. The only two days when Mrs Dinwoodie ( the Liverpol sweetshop lady ) was in the shop in that period were the Monday and the Tuesday, which was the day of the murder. The prosecution's own evidence shows Hanratty was in London all day on the Monday ( indeed, this is how he was tied to the Vienna Hotel ) and so the Tuesday is the only day when he could have gone into the shop. As his own barrister pointed out, he would have needed a helicopter to get to Dorney Reach in time.
      5. The prosecution case was that there was not and never had been any connection between Hanratty and Alphon. The first time the Vienna Hotel was mentioned in relation to the case was when the police had Alphon reported to them as behaving strangely in another hotel a few days after the murder. His alibi given was the Vienna Hotel. If you "stop the film" at that point and ask what would be the odds against the real murderer ( who could have been anybody and could have been anywhere on the night before the murder ) just happening to turn out to be a person who had spent the night before the murder in the same hotel as the one which Alphon gave as his alibi for the murder night they must be millions to one. And yet the prosecution's case rested on this absurd possibility.
      6. One of the very first things Hanratty did when arrested was to volunteer forensic samples. As an experienced crook, a strange thing for him to do if guilty as he must have known he could not be forced to provide the samples.

      I still find it impossible to come to any other conclusion save that the case in Hanratty's favour is far more coherent and compelling than the case against him. Of course, different readers tend to attach more or less weight to different aspects of a case like this but I fail to see how any real;istic examination of the whole case can avoid the point that, in the light of all that is known both at the time of trial and since, as soon as you attempt to put together a scenario for how Hanratty spent that crucial week in August 1961 which includes his carrying out of that murder it is not very long before you begin to run into grave improbabilities!


      This is the most authorative post in this entire thread. STRUNT signed up just to make this post - he has made no other posts - who is he? Is STRUNT an acronym? Does it mean anything backwards? I think think this poster has a real and meaningful interest in this case and I would like to hear more of what her or she has to say.

      If you are keeping tabs on these posts, Strunt, please make another valuable contribution. We would like to hear from you.

      Kind regards,
      Steve


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      #235 17th July 2007, 08:19 PM
      Graham
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      Hi Steve.

      Regarding Strunt, I believe I detect some degree of legal training in his/her post.

      Regarding Alphon, in the aftermath of the trial he seemed almost impervious to legal proceedings, witness his assault upon Mrs Hanratty, from which no charges arose. I think both Foot and Woffinden had got it right when they suggested that, for some unknown reason, the police were in some way afraid of Alphon; or, perhaps more accurately, afraid of what he might do or say.

      Hi JBB.

      Having done it myself, it's only a relatively short walk (for a fit person, that is) from the A4 to the cornfield, and I presume that, as today, there were buses and a rail service. Yet if I remember correctly, Valerie said that the gunman stated that he had reached the car by walking across the field, and she added that she didn't believe him because he was so immaculately dressed. Also, the field leads only down to the Thames.

      Did you really meet Jean Justice, JBB? I've been trying for years to get hold of one or other of his books on the Hanratty Case, but I guess they are now extremely rare. What was your impression of Justice? Do you think he was genuinely committed to establishing Hanratty's innocence, or was he, as Leonard Miller believes, just using the case to have a poke at the Establishment?

      Cheers,

      Graham


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      #236 17th July 2007, 08:55 PM
      richardn
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      Hi Guys,
      In the case of Hanratty you pay your money and form an opinion.
      It all boils down to one of two scenerios.
      A] Hanratty was innocent of murder and rape .in which case a huge case of misjustice is evident,
      b] he was as guilty as hell, but protested his innocence since the verdict, in a desperate attempt to escape execution.
      I believe the latter, death is final, and when placed in the condemed cell , if i am right in my reading of J Hanratty he would have tried everything to convince his parents of his evidence not only to spare there feelings, but to encourage them to encourage public support.
      My feelings always go to Valarie , who because of the events of that evening ,has suffered not only through the obvious trauma which lead to her being crippled ever since, but also the mental anquish which she has had to endure via the media who has never let her forget she may have got it wrong...
      The only consolation is Valeries own concious which is adamant she fingered the guilty man.
      Regards Richard.


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      #237 17th July 2007, 09:04 PM
      Graham
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      Evening Richard.

      My thoughts precisely.

      Valerie is often forgotten in the ongoing debate about this case, and she has had the good sense to remain silent about it, at least during the few years since the last TV documentary was made.

      Cheers,

      Graham


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      #238 18th July 2007, 11:29 AM
      rigby
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      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Graham
      ...I've been trying for years to get hold of one or other of his books on the Hanratty Case, but I guess they are now extremely rare. What was your impression of Justice?...


      Go get thyself one of them eBay automatic keyword auctionwatch thingies set up. It'll tell you when one next comes 'in stock' on there - I've seen a few. Also, Loretta Lay's site oft has a copy listed. Try there first ?


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      #239 18th July 2007, 05:27 PM
      granger
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      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Graham
      I've been trying for years to get hold of one or other of his books on the Hanratty Case, but I guess they are now extremely rare.



      Hi Graham: I see you live in the UK, so you shouldn't have too much of a problem.The public library system in the UK will almost guarantee to get you ANY book by their inter-library system. A couple of months back they even got me a loan from the USA!!

      eBay have, at this moment, 3no copies of Murder Casebook No 25, which is an excellent magazines dealing with the A6 murder.

      http://search.ebay.co.uk/search/sear...title=hanratty


      Also try this web site. At present they have 96 copies on the subject from 50p. They are a very good firm to deal with.

      http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/Se...ratty+ murder

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Last edited by granger : 18th July 2007 at 05:57 PM.


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      #240 18th July 2007, 06:51 PM
      Steve
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      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Hi Granger

      Thanks for those useful links. I've had a look at the eBay auctions and see he has had no bids so far. What's the bet he suddenly gets a load of bids on these items from Casebook Members?

      Kind regards,
      Steve
      atb

      larue

      Comment

      • #93
        Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel
        James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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        #241 18th July 2007, 08:15 PM
        Graham
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        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Thanks for the leads, guys.

        I checked out the Abe Books site (thanks, Granger) and they have 3 copies of the Jean Justice book, one of which I think I'll treat myself to. Most expensive books under the Hanratty heading, though. I know Justice is nowdays largely discredited, but he it was who first brought this case into the public eye (and Paul Foot continued in Private Eye...).

        Cheers,

        Graham


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        #242 19th July 2007, 08:47 AM
        granger
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        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Graham
        Thanks for the leads, guys.

        I checked out the Abe Books site (thanks, Granger) and they have 3 copies of the Jean Justice book, one of which I think I'll treat myself to. Most expensive books under the Hanratty heading, though. I know Justice is nowdays largely discredited, but he it was who first brought this case into the public eye (and Paul Foot continued in Private Eye...).

        Cheers,

        Graham


        Hi Graham; Glad I was of some help.

        Another web site which has a number of Hanratty books available for sale:-

        UKBookworld.com old, rare and out-of-print book database
        http://ukbookworld.com/cgi-bin/searc...=1959321424659
        The british marketplace for scholarly and collected old, rare and out-of-print books


        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Last edited by granger : 19th July 2007 at 08:50 AM.


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        #243 19th July 2007, 09:01 AM
        granger
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        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Steve
        Hi Granger

        Thanks for those useful links. I've had a look at the eBay auctions and see he has had no bids so far. What's the bet he suddenly gets a load of bids on these items from Casebook Members?

        Kind regards,
        Steve


        I find Murder Casebooks on Ebay rarely get any bids, except for some of the rarer ones. (why should some be rarer than others I do not know). However, watch out for some extortionate p&p some sellers charge. My experience of MC mags is that they have excellent photographs which don't seem to appear elsewhere. Ebay also have a service where you can actually enter a keyword ie HANRATTY' or an authors name, and they will notify you of any items which later come up for grabs.

        A tip. If you have the time, only bid once in the last 15 seconds!!!


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        #244 19th July 2007, 09:50 AM
        Steve
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        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Graham
        Having done it myself, it's only a relatively short walk (for a fit person, that is) from the A4 to the cornfield, and I presume that, as today, there were buses and a rail service. Yet if I remember correctly, Valerie said that the gunman stated that he had reached the car by walking across the field, and she added that she didn't believe him because he was so immaculately dressed. Also, the field leads only down to the Thames.



        Hello Graham

        It's 1.8 miles from Taplow railway station to the bottom of Marsh Lane at Dorney if you walk on the pavement and don't detour across any cornfields. But what is especially mysterious is why the gunman would choose to go down Marsh Lane - it didn't really go anywhere - if you carry on round the corner into Court Lane you eventually get to Eton, but I can't really see why the gunman would want to do that. I cannot see either why the gunman would choose to get off a train at Taplow which is a small station between Slough and Maidenhead. When I lived in Bucks in the 80's Taplow was starting to be developed with a shopping centre and, later, a supermarket, but in the early 60's it was a quiet backwater village.

        Incidentally the gateway to the cornfield has been transformed in recent years and is now the entrance to Dorney Lake. Most of what was the cornfield is now a huge man-made rowing lake, and the Dorney area will achieve international fame in 2012 when the Olympic Games rowing and canoeing events will be held there.

        One reason why Hanratty, if he was the gunman, could possibly have been in the Dorney area would have been to break into one of the big houses in Dorney Reach Road which runs near to the cornfield and close to the Thames. If this was the case he could indeed have been coming across the cornfield. But why he would do that rather than leave the area on the pavement would be puzzling. One other thought is that if he had been walking for some distance the chance of stealing a car and driving away from the area rather than having to walk might well have held some appeal. But why steal an occupied car rather than one parked and empty. All of this would presume some local knowledge of the area and it was never proved that Hanratty had any such local knowledge, and Hanratty's car thefts had always been parked cars as far as we know.

        According to Valerie the Morris Minor was parked just inside the gate of the cornfield so it is far more likely that the gunman approached the vehicle from Marsh Lane, but it really is difficult to understand what he was doing there. And when you factor in Hanratty's known lifestyle as a city boy it makes it even more puzzling.

        Incidentally, driving in London yesterday I spotted a 1950's split screen Morris Minor parked at the road side. It's years since I last had a look inside one so I just had to stop and take a peek. It really is a tiny car, especially by today's standards and the three occupants would have been sitting very close together. One thing I noticed is that the rear seat is quite a bit higher than the two front seats giving the rear passenger a slightly commanding position. (If holding a gun to your back isn't commanding enough!)

        Kind regards,
        Steve


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        #245 19th July 2007, 10:03 AM
        Steve
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        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by granger
        A tip. If you have the time, only bid once in the last 15 seconds!!!


        Thanks, Granger

        My business trades extensively on eBay and unfortunately we have many customers who know that trick!

        Kind regards,
        Steve


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        #246 19th July 2007, 03:13 PM
        granger
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        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Steve
        Thanks, Granger

        My business trades extensively on eBay and unfortunately we have many customers who know that trick!

        Kind regards,
        Steve


        Hi Steve. Yeah I know. Personally though, if you are fortunate to be able to be logged in at the end of any auction on eBay, I really think it is senseless to make any bid until the last minute. I reckon 90% of winners haven't made any earlier bids.

        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Last edited by granger : 19th July 2007 at 03:22 PM.


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        #247 19th July 2007, 03:54 PM
        Steve
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        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Hello Granger

        I know we are going off-topic with this, but you are actually quite right that the sensible strategy with on-line auctions is to make one bid right at the last minute. Few people work this way. Our experience is that most items that we sell in auction format attract a bid early on in the listing. I think this is to 'stake a claim' to the item. Amazingly, where bidding does speed up on a particular item we often see the final selling price go above the price of the same item listed as inventory!

        Kind regards,
        Steve


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        #248 19th July 2007, 04:31 PM
        Graham
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        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Hi Granger.

        Interesting post. It's about 5 years since I ventured down Taplow, but I did do the walk from the station and I reckon it took me about 45 minutes, taking it easy. I was knackered by the time I'd walked back to my car...

        When was 'the' entrance to the field turned into the gateway for the water-park? Given my long-time interest in the case, I was never 100% sure which was 'the' entrance - I was under the impression that it's where some kind of small structure (something to do with water) now stands.

        Leonard Miller wondered if Hanratty's intention was to 'do' a posh house, but he'd done posh houses before and never used a gun. Anyway, his beat seemed to be in the Stanmore/Harrow/Kingsbury area, miles away. Surely the reason he got a gun in the first place was to essay something much more profitable than an ordinary burglary or even pinching cars. I wonder if he got the gun out of sheer bravado, and having got it thought he'd better use it.
        Hanratty was not noted for his intelligence and ability to think things through, and I reckon he probably went to Slough dog-track with the gun, had a bad evening, and decided to act the big guy. But if so, it brings us back to the fundamental question: why a couple in a small car in Dorney Reach? And that brings us back to another fundamental question: was he 'sent' there? Incidentally, by his own admission he did have some history of violence, vide the two blokes who accosted him in Blackpool. He whacked one of them without hesitation. No, doesn't make much sense. I mean, if I was so inclined, armed with a gun, and wanted to do something really meaty, I'd be looking for toffs in a Roller, at least. If he just needed a car for the short term, why did he get Gregsten to drive up towards Bedford?

        There are as many questions about this Case in 2007 as there were in 1961...if not more.

        One small aspect of the case that a lot of people miss is the fact that according to Valerie the gunman wore a bandana handkerchief over his face, outlaw-style. But she never said at what point he removed it - must have been before she caught a glimpse of his face in the lights of a passing car in the lay-by. Was that the handkerchief the gun was wrapped in when it was found?

        And while I'm on the subject, have you seen the video of Michael Hanratty discussing the case? He comes across as genuinely and completely puzzled that his brother should even contemplate such a crime - no way in my opinion was Michael putting on an act. Yet the DNA.....

        By the way, Larue is a Morris Minor nut, so stand by for input from him! I also had a splittie Moggie, 1952 vintage, and being 6'3" it wasn't exactly a fun drive.

        Cheers,

        Graham


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        #249 20th July 2007, 06:47 PM
        Steve
        Inspector Join Date: May 2007
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        Cornfield Entrance

        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Graham, this is a photo taken earlier this year of the gate which leads to the water works. This is near the bottom of Marsh Lane but above the cottages.
        Attached Images



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        #250 20th July 2007, 06:51 PM
        Steve
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        Cornfield Today

        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        This is what the cornfield looks like today.
        Attached Images
        atb

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        • #94
          Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel
          James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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          #251 20th July 2007, 06:56 PM
          Steve
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          Cornfield Today

          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          The cornfield has been extensively landscaped and is now a very pleasant private park. It's owned by Eton School and is their rowing and canoeing centre. It is a private park not open to public access.
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          #252 20th July 2007, 07:04 PM
          Steve
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          Cornfield Today

          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          These are the cottages where a light came on and banging was heard whilst the gunman was in the car with Valerie & Mike, and they got the impression that someone was putting a bike away for the night.
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          #253 20th July 2007, 07:19 PM
          Steve
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          Cornfield Today

          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          This is about where the 'haystack' would have been and the place where the Morris Minor was parked after the gunman instructed Mike to drive further into the field and turn the car around to face the entrance.

          The lady who lives in the bottom cottage nearest the cornfield entrance has lived there since 1970!


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          #254 20th July 2007, 07:21 PM
          Steve
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          Cornfield Today

          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          This is about where the 'haystack' would have been and the place where the Morris Minor was parked after the gunman instructed Mike to drive further into the field and turn the car around to face the entrance.

          The lady who lives in the bottom cottage nearest the cornfield entrance has lived there since 1970!


          Attached Images



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          #255 20th July 2007, 07:55 PM
          Graham
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          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Hi Steve.

          Great pics, and thanks a million for posting them. There's obviously been a huge amount of landscaping done since I was last there. I think the entrance you show is the next one down (away from the cottages) from the 'waterworks building' gate I remember. What I intend to do is print off your pics and keep them in the car until I can get down that way again. (I used to have a number of customers on Slough Trading Estate, but over the years they've all disappeared).

          Perhaps it's significant that Acott always kept the precise location of the entrance to the cornfield a closely-guarded secret - but why? According to Jean Justice, Alphon knew the exact location, and if that is true, then how?
          And more importantly, why? More mystery!

          Regarding the drive north eventually leading onto the A6, Leonard Miller said that Hanratty had a relative (an aunt, I think) who lived in or close to Bedford, and that it was possible that Hanratty was familiar with the area having visited this relative. This may be so. Otherwise, to force Gregsten to drive from Dorney Reach via a rather odd route to the lay-by is yet another mystery. No-one has ever come up with a plausible reason why Hanratty chose to go towards Bedford. It wasn't as if he and his 'prisoners' were out for an evening's drive around the countryside.

          It's all weird.

          Cheers,

          Graham


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          #256 21st July 2007, 09:44 AM
          granger
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          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          'Looks nice' says my partner!!!!

          Steve: Thank you very, very much for the great photographs. Completely different than I ever imagined it to be, although from what is said. the landscape has changed dramatically over the past 40 odd years.

          It is incredible that exact locations can be lost over a comparative short amount of time. I bet the lady in the cottage must have got used to her property being photographed!

          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Last edited by granger : 21st July 2007 at 09:49 AM.


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          #257 23rd July 2007, 01:08 PM
          jimarilyn
          Police Constable Join Date: Jun 2007
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          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Hi

          "Phone later, P"


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          #258 24th July 2007, 10:18 AM
          JBB
          Police Constable Join Date: May 2007
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          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Hi

          In the recent floods that we have had in Hull, one of the items I have lost is the Miller Book. Could someone please lend me a copy so that i can copy it. I have tried to get it but out of print-not in national library lending system and none of the out of print book services can locate a copy!!

          My e mail address is john@apshipping.co.uk.

          Many thanks


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          #259 24th July 2007, 03:28 PM
          granger
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          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by JBB
          Hi

          In the recent floods that we have had in Hull, one of the items I have lost is the Miller Book. Could someone please lend me a copy so that i can copy it. I have tried to get it but out of print-not in national library lending system and none of the out of print book services can locate a copy!!

          My e mail address is john@apshipping.co.uk.

          Many thanks


          Can you give me the title of this book, as not that familiar with the Hanratty books. I may have some contacts.


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          #260 24th July 2007, 03:34 PM
          Steve Miller
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          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Hi John just sent you an email
          __________________
          All the Best
          Steve
          atb

          larue

          Comment

          • #95
            Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel
            James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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            #261 28th July 2007, 10:29 AM
            Limehouse
            Police Constable Join Date: Jul 2007
            Location: Cambridgeshire
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            Points to consider

            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            This crime happened when I was a very small child but I can remember the face of Hanratty on the newspapers follwoing his conviction and, as a Londoner, it prompted much debate within my family and circle of friends for many years.

            The question of motive is an important one. On the face of it the killer had little to gain and yet, if caught, quite a lot to lose (his life) from the killings.
            Either it was an opportunist crime that got out of hand, and the killer happened across the lovers as he was looking for a house to raid, or perhaps the killer was paid to dispatch the killers or 'frighten' them. I seem to remember that, when confessing to the crimes, Peter Alphon suggested that he had been hired to break up the lovers in some way. However, even if the intention was to actually kill the lovers - how did the rape figure in this? Was it an attempt to make the event look like a chance encounter by a working-class criminal who, of course, would take the opportunity to rape a woman if the opportunity arose (in the eyes of a non-working class conspiracy)?

            Miss Storie was very taken by the killer's accent and dialect. During an ID parade, she asked each man in the line up to say "be quiet will you, I'm thinking". She was looking out for the pronounciation 'finking' used by the killer. Of course, Hanratty had such an accent - but did Peter Alphon? Could he convincingly have used that accent for that amount of time without giving himself away? This of course does not fully put Hanratty in the frame but does it place someone else there - neither Alphon or Hanratty?

            The gun placed under the back seat of the bus, as many have pointed out in previous threads, is another puzzle. It's true that Hanratty had said it was a good place to hide unwanted booty from robberies, and it seemed to be a good place to hide the gun if you knew Hanratty's habits and wanted to frame him - especially if you could wrap the gun in a hanky belonging to Hanratty with forensic evidence all over it.

            That point leads me to another mystery - there is absolutely no forensic evidence inside the car to link Hanratty with the crime - but a transient garment links Hanratty to the crime.

            I can't help but agree with posters who doubt that Hanratty was the type of criminal who could have raped a woman in the back of a blood-splattered car - but then who is? This type of man must be very rare.

            I am sceptical about the DNA evidence. I don't believe it proves beyond doubt that Hanratty was guilty - I think it was in the interests of the state to find him guilty in the light of Derek Bentley having been given a pardon and I think there is ample evidence to suggest cross-contamination.

            As for Valerie Storie's evidence - in light of the trauma she must have suffered I think her testiment is unreliable.

            However, I have to admit that Hanratty's change of allibi is equally suspicious.

            As I understand it, the cartridge cases from the gun were found in the hotel or guest house room that BOTH Alphon and Hanratty had occupied prior to the murder. The gun was, however, linked to Hanratty via his hanky. The cartridges were not found until AFTER the murder. Where were they? In the room? If so, why weren't they found? Were they planted?

            There are a lot of unanswered questions and, like JTR, I don't think they will ever be answered. All I can hope is that all of those involved who are now dead cna rest in peace.


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            #262 28th July 2007, 02:19 PM
            Steve
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            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            Hello Limehouse

            You are right that Miss Storie asked the members of the parade to speak and picked Hanratty because he said ‘finking’ instead of thinking. Alphon apparently spoke with a more educated accent, and this fact was one of the thirteen points that convinced Acott of Alphon’s innocence. Apparently, though, Alphon did lapse into a London accent from time to time.

            In your third paragraph you wonder if neither Alphon or Hanratty were involved. Do you have some other person in mind?

            Your point about the 36A bus is a valid one. I have never been convinced that Hanratty put the gun there. It would have been a very stupid thing for the murderer to have done, and Hanratty was usually careful not to leave evidence of his crimes. And you are right about the lack of forensic evidence inside the car – at least no evidence has ever been made public.

            The DNA evidence? There have been a couple of very interesting posts on this subject, authoritative posts, but as it stands today the DNA evidence proves Hanratty’s guilt with 100% certainty – or until such time as future scientific developments say differently.

            I disagree with you on Miss Storie’s testimony. My own belief is that she is the one witness who could be relied upon fully. She never changed her story. She may have been unwell at the time of the first parade, she may actually have been perfectly OK to attend the parade. She failed to pick out Alphon at that parade. Perhaps because he had nothing to do with the crime.

            The cartridge cases were found in room 24 of the Vienna and Hanratty occupied this room the night before the night of the murder, so a complete day earlier. Alphon was a guest at the Vienna on the night of the murder and occupied a different room (room 6, I think.) Depending on which of Nudds’ statements you believe there is a possibility that Alphon was briefly in room 24, but this is an area of some contention. Yes, they were found after the murder, and yes there is a definite possibility that they could have been planted there, or at least conveniently placed there, possibly by Dixie France.

            Kind regards,
            Steve


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            #263 28th July 2007, 08:54 PM
            Graham
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            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            Hi Limehouse.

            Your post contained some excellent points.

            Motive? Perhaps the biggest mystery of all. Small-time crook, car-thief, burglar, who abducts two people in a small car, murders one of them, rapes and attempts to murder the other? Unheard-of in 1961, and so the police and the Establishment needed a culprit and needed him quick.

            Who identified Hanratty to the police? Who made the link between the names Ryan and Hanratty? Bob Woffinden believes it was Charles France, and I wouldn't argue.

            Who hid the gun on the 36A bus? By his own admission Hanratty said that he'd told Charles France about the upstairs back seat of London buses being a good place to get rid of unwanted goods. Was, then, Hanratty so stupid as to place the gun there himself? Possibly. Or - did he give the hankie-wrapped gun to France and ask him to get rid of it for him, because he, Hanratty, had done something incredibly stupid? I believe it was to France that Hanratty admitted doing something that 'scared him'. Did France as a consequence of this admission then put the gun in a place that could be directly linked with Hanratty? And did France, overwhelmed with the realisation that he may have contributed to the execution of someone he had known as a friend, commit suicide because of this? France left a mound of written notes, most of which have never since seen the light of day. Do those notes contain his 'confession'? The only notes France left, which the police allowed to be published, made a reference to his fear that 'they will destroy us all', or words to that effect.

            Forensic evidence and the car? Valerie said the abductor wore gloves, but even so I find it slightly difficult to accept that forensics failed to show, via clothing fibres, for example, any link whatsoever between Hanratty and the car.

            Did Hanratty get a fair trial? No way. The police knowingly withheld important evidence from the defence. The defence effort did its best under the circumstances, given the fact that Hanratty did not make a good impression in the witness-box, and neither did Mrs Grace Jones, courtesy of (possibly) dirty tricks on the part of the prosecution. Yet eye-witness testimony states that even Mr Justice Gorman was visibly shaken when a 'guilty' verdict was returned. Which obviously suggests that even the trial judge was not impressed with the validity of the prosecution case.

            The DNA? Indisputable. I have the impression that the Home Office, at the end of its tether, so to speak, authorised the DNA in an effort to prove the case one way or the other. The results must have surprised everyone connected with this case: the defence, the prosecution and even, I have to say the police.

            The Vienna Hotel? Ah, well. To my mind, the core of the entire mystery. Was Alphon's presence merely coincidental, or what? Did he really resemble Hanratty sufficiently for several observers to claim that Hanratty had a double? How much did Nudds really know, and never told?

            Valerie Storie? Unimpeachable. Her testimony was one of identification, and the jury believed her (even if the judge was sceptical).

            William Ewer? Who knows?

            There is far more to this case than has ever been made public, and I think you're right, Limehouse: we probably will never know the true facts. Yet how fascinating it is to speculate...

            Cheers,

            Graham


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            #264 28th July 2007, 09:26 PM
            Steve
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            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            Hi Graham

            Excellent post. Summarises the salient points to perfection!

            If anyone has any doubt about the guilty party they only have to listen to Miss Storie's view, she leaves you in do doubt whatsover that it was Hanratty who was guilty as charged.

            For my money the DNA evidence only confirmed what had already been proved: Hanratty was the murderer. However, the conspiracy part of this case is still open to speculation!

            Kind regards,
            Steve


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            #265 29th July 2007, 07:52 AM
            Limehouse
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            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            Thanks for your comments chaps. I am definitely re-thinking this case in the light of the posts I have read here. I believe I may have to admit to Hanratty's involvement in this crime but I don't believe he acted alone and I don't believe it was a chance crime.

            On re-reading Bob's book, I am reminded that Janet, the victim's wife, had come to terms with his affair(s) and accepted them because they were sexually incompatible. It also seems that she knew he was meeting Miss Storie that night. However, it also seems that both victim and wife were mentally unstable and were suffering as a result of their relationship and financial difficulties. There is no way Janet could have paid anyone to separate her husband and his lover unless she obtained money from somewhere else. She was obviously very distressed by his death - so what is the answer?

            Can it really be that Hanratty was ready for a big-time crime and used the cornfield opportunity to practise for an armed hold-up - or was the big-time crime he was ready for that of a hit man? Did he expect to get paid a large sum for his work when it was done? Did he hand the gun over after the crime, expecting it to be disposed of properly - only to find it used to frame him? Did a third party make pains to 'be seen' in the vacinity of the crime during the afternoon to establish a 'stranger' theory? Should this person have handed over the money to pay the hit man but instead framed him? If Hanratty was the hit man - how come no evidence of him was found at the scene? Come to think of it, were ANY fibres or forensic details of the killer found at the scene? Any unidentified forensic evidence belonging to a third party?

            Just a parting thought. Valerie Storie stated the killer wore gloves. Hanratty, describing how he worked on burglaries, insisted - "I never wear gloves, they can trap you, I wipe everything down with a hanky."


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            #266 29th July 2007, 09:44 AM
            Steve
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            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            Hi Limehouse

            The probability is that Hanratty did act alone, that he had not planned anything in advance and that it was just an opportunist crime that went very badly wrong. It’s unlikely that he was acting on behalf of a third party and it’s unlikely that he was acting in the hope of getting paid. He possibly did involve someone after the crime, to dispose of the gun and ammunition.

            Yes, the Gregstens were short of cash, so much so that the Morris Minor was borrowed from an aunt, and there was no way that Janet Gregsten could have funded any such enterprise as has been suggested. The one possibility of this crime being pre-planned would be if William Ewer was involved – this has often been suggested and Alphon confirmed this to be the case in his private letter to the Home Secretary in March 1969:

            ‘I name William Ewer as the prime mover in the three-man conspiracy I have alleged was behind the A6 murder. The identity of the middle-man in the plot has already been made known: he was of course the Hanratty trial Crown witness who committed suicide, Charles Dixie France, a former strip club employee. The relationship between William Ewer and France is an open secret among police officers, journalists and others.’

            A third party taking pains to be seen in the vicinity of the cornfield, is very unlikely. Remember, it is entirely possible that Alphon was seen in the area and that he was there quite innocently. I know it would be a huge coincidence if he just happened to be walking along Marsh Lane days before Hanratty went there, perhaps too big a coincidence to contemplate. But then we already know of many huge coincidences in this case. Also, Alphon was known to visit the dog stadium in Slough. He was apparently there on the evening of the murder.

            The whole issue of forensic evidence in the Morris Minor seems to be a mystery. Nothing was ever found, apparently, of anyone; neither Hanratty nor some other unidentified individual.

            On the gloves issue, true that JH preferred not to wear them for his burglaries, but Louise Anderson claimed to have lost a pair of gloves at about the time that Hanratty was staying with her in her flat. Presumably these were the gloves he wore.

            Kind regards,
            Steve


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            #267 29th July 2007, 10:01 AM
            Steve
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            Deadman's Hill Lay-By - Fairly Recent Photos

            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            You might be interested to see what the lay-by looks like today, these pictures were taken earlier this year.
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            #268 29th July 2007, 10:12 AM
            Steve
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            Deadman's Hill Lay-By - Fairly Recent Photos

            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            There is a lot more greenery there than in 1961, and the road layout has changed since then.
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            #269 29th July 2007, 10:20 AM
            Steve
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            Deadman's Hill Lay-By - Fairly Recent Photos

            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            There is an eerie-atmosphere to this place !!!
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            #270 29th July 2007, 11:58 AM
            Limehouse
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            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            Thanks for posting the photos Steve. It is chilling to think of what took place there and the name of the place - Deadman's Hill - adds to that.

            You are starting to convince me! Hanratty seems a likely suspect. I knew he had family in Bedford so may have been familiar with the area. Still, there is that element of doubt. I suppose I want to think the best of him, despite him being a pretty low criminal. What is certain is that someone was low enough to commit that crime - but they didn't seem very experienced or comfortable with it. Even so, that person appears to have quite calmly emptied five bullets into Miss Storie, obviously because of her ability to identify him and send him to the gallows.

            Alphon may well have been someone who drifted into and out of this story, by plan or by accident. He quite obviously enjoyed the attention and clearly wanted to write himself into the mystery even if he was innocent. I wonder if, had he hung, we would be speculating on the likelyhood that he was innocent and some other man, with a cockney accent, was really responsible?
            atb

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            • #96
              Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel
              James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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              #271 29th July 2007, 01:16 PM
              granger
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              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              I expect you have all seen this:-

              404 - Page Not Found
              http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...m&news=1&ms3=4



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              #272 29th July 2007, 01:25 PM
              Steve
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              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              Thanks for posting the link, Granger. I don't recall seeing the clip before and it certainly puts some black & white historical perspective on things.


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              #273 29th July 2007, 03:55 PM
              granger
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              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              Steve: Thanks for the great pictures. Any idea when the layby was grassed over, and was it obliterated because of it's association with the murder?

              Without trawling through all the postings, I believe there was discussion regarding the Morris Minor. Does anyone know what happened to the vehicle, which had the registration number:847 BHN? I believe the colour was grey.

              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Last edited by granger : 29th July 2007 at 04:01 PM.


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              #274 29th July 2007, 04:26 PM
              Steve
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              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              Hi Granger

              I don't believe the lay-by was grassed over. I think the wooded area in the pictures is what was the grass verge in 1961. The road has been widened to a dual-carriageway since, but that shouldn't really have made much difference to the lay-by.

              No-one seems to know what happened to the Morris Minor. It might still be with the police, or it could have been scrapped. The DNA-tested exhibits were found relatively recently so they were obviously kept, but it might be different with something as large as a motor car. Maybe pressure of space forced the police to scrap it years ago. Would be interesting to know, though, wouldn't it?

              Kind regards,
              Steve


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              #275 29th July 2007, 05:54 PM
              granger
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              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              Here is a lousy picture of the lay by, as was. (Sorry no idea how to get posted as an attachment. Maybe you can).) Are those cottage there still?

              404 - Page Not Found
              http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/975000..._scene.300.jpg



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              #276 29th July 2007, 05:59 PM
              Steve
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              Cottages at Deadman's Hill

              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              Yes, the cottages are still there. The trees & bushes have grown a lot over the last 46 years, but it is the cottages that puts the location of the lay-by, and of the crime, into perspective.

              I think they are just about visible, or at least the tops of them, in this picture:
              Attached Images



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              #277 29th July 2007, 06:04 PM
              Steve
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              Cottages at Deadman's Hill

              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              I should have explained that the picture above is of the exit from the lay-by heading north on the A6 towards Bedford. The cottages are at the top of the hill and the road runs downwards on the next stretch of the A6.

              Just why the gunman decided to stop at this particular point on the journey is another mystery that has never been explained. Today, and probably then, especially in the dark, it is very easy to miss the entrance to this lay-by unless you know it is there.


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              #278 29th July 2007, 06:55 PM
              granger
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              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              Steve: I' m a little thrown now with your pix as I never been to the location. Please bear with me.

              There appears to be a road junction onto the dual carriage way, and your other pix are of what appears to be a minor road. I thought the lay be had now fgone, but your last posting refers to a lay by junction. Can you explain, and also give me a OS grid reference?


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              #279 29th July 2007, 07:33 PM
              Graham
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              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              Nice photos, Steve. However, as you say, the lay-by has changed enormously over the intervening years. Is 'the' spot now covered with undergrowth, as I suspect? I haven't visited for about 3 years, but like you I always found it a bit eerie, even in broad daylight.

              I've often wondered just how Hanratty came across this spot which,as you rightly point out, is very easy to miss. According to Miller, Hanratty had relatives in Bedford whom he visited on at least one occasion, but even so I find it difficult to understand how he found the lay-by unless it was by pure chance.

              Would you have any photos of The Old Station Inn, by any chance? Assuming it still stands, that is. Am I right in saying that it's not been, or had not been, a licensed premises for quite a long time?

              Re: the Morris Minor, some time ago I asked on this thread if anyone knew what happened to it, and there was no reply. As it was Gregsten's aunt's car, presumably the police must have asked her if she wanted it back, and presumably (and understandably) she declined. Perhaps it was auctioned off, or simply scrapped. I also asked if there was any bullet-damage to the car, as according to the autopsy Gregsten was shot 'through and through', and Stan postulated that perhaps the driver's window was open and the bullets passed through it. It's possible that modern forensic techniques would have found some evidence of Hanratty's presence, but obviously that's completely academic today.

              I found something else today, when I was glancing through my Hanratty literature. On the www.freerepublic.com website there is, or was, a Hanratty thread, and in a post made by 'Dighton' on 5 September 2002 it is stated (not suggested) that Jean Justice paid Alphon £25000 for his confession. I've heard elsewhere that Justice 'probably' gave money to Alphon, but this is the first time I've seen a figure mentioned. Any comments, Steve?

              Granger, that was an excellent link to the interview of Edwin Cook, which I've never seen before. Good-looking bloke, too!

              Cheers,

              Graham


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              #280 30th July 2007, 11:27 AM
              Steve
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              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              Hello Granger

              The lay-by is still there. It’s very popular, a tea wagon parks there and truckers stop for a snack, chairs are provided for them. There’s also a nature trail leading from the lay-by and families walk and cycle along the track.

              The pictures were taken from almost the same spot at the top of the lay-by:

              ?The first picture is looking north towards the cottages and the white truck is driving south on the A6 in the direction of Luton

              ?The second picture is looking into the lay-by itself, the truck and the black car are parked in the lay-by, and I believe the large tree in the middle of the overgrown embankment is about where the Morris Minor would have been parked and where the murder took place.

              ?The same tree is to the right of the third picture and shown at the left of this picture is the A6 looking south

              ?The fourth picture is the same spot from a slightly different camera angle

              ?The fifth picture is again looking into the lay-by, the grey truck is facing north


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              Last edited by larue; 04-06-2008, 11:48 AM.
              atb

              larue

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              • #97
                Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel
                James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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                #291 3rd August 2007, 04:25 PM
                Limehouse
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                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                Hi,

                I agree, the identikit does look like Alphon - but it could eually be Hanratty (except for the hair, which Alphon most wore swept back as shown in the identikit).

                On re-reading Woffinden's book, I am shocked all over again by the behaviour of Alphon in the years following the Hanratty hanging. It appears Alphon made numerous unpleasant telephone calls to those involved (including the Hanratty family) and took every opportunity to draw attention to himself and the crime, which he variously confessed to and retracted.

                It is even stated that he made threatening telephone calls to the hospital where Valerie Storie was recovering and to Charles France in the weeks following the murder.

                I keep swinging this way and that in my mind over whether Hanratty was guilty. Without the DNA evidence, I would have said innocent, innocent, innocent. The DNA evidence seems to have convinced some people who were pro-Hanratty of his guilt - but then there is the possibility of cross-contamination. As we have discussed - there was no forensic evidence to link Hanratty with the car - but then no evidence to link any other third party with the car. Why? Was the car actually thoroughly examined for fibres etc once the police were told the killer wore gloves?

                I don't really believe in capital punishment but my own sense of justice makes me wish that Hanratty was guilty so that he died according to the law of the land and, let's face it, after committing a terrible crime. However, another part of me hopes he was innocent because I don't like to think that he fooled me into believing in him - but that would mean accepting they hung an innocent man.


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                #292 3rd August 2007, 05:28 PM
                granger
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                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                I am puzzled why so many people are convinced that DNA cross contamination could not have taken place many years after Hanratty's execution. With no knowledge of DNA in the sixties I cannot think that anyone would have had the presence of mind to have 'planted' this evidence at that time, unless they were able to foresee the advent of DNA testing.

                Does anyone know what has happened to Alphon? I am positive he is still alive, but despite an intensive Google search I have been unable to answer this question.

                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Last edited by granger : 3rd August 2007 at 05:43 PM.


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                #293 3rd August 2007, 07:21 PM
                Graham
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                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                Evenin' all.

                That old Identikit system was notoriously 'subjective', as the police themselve eventually decided. Personally, I could never quite see any real resemblance between the Identikit put together by Valerie and either Alphon or Hanratty. And I couldn't, and can't, see much resemblance between Alphon and Hanratty in the flesh, either, to go by available photographs of them. But it was the best and only tool the police had in 1961. Prior to that, a skilled artist would put together a sketch of a suspect based upon someone's description.

                The thing about the DNA, Granger, it that it wasn't just the underwear that was tested, but also the hankie that the gun was wrapped in, and that, so far as I am able to tell, was stored on its own and showed only one male DNA trace, that of Hanratty when compared with the DNA taken from his remains.

                Bob Woffinden traced Alphon in 1991 to a lodging-house in Euston, but he didn't want to discuss the case. He was also filmed on a railway-station platform, and I believe this clip was shown in The Mystery Of Deadman's Hill, depicting him in his 'traditional' mac packing up and down the platform; however, I don't know at what date this piece of film was shot. Someone on this thread stated a while back that Alphon is now dead. I'd be interested to know how that poster discovered that Alphon had died. He'd be 77 now if still alive. Again according to Woffinden, his last 'confession' was made to Jeremy Fox in 1971, but this time he had Janet Gregsten (wearing a blonde wig) meeting him in the Old Station Inn on the night of the murder, exhorting Alphon to 'do it'. Yes, well.

                Cheers,

                Graham


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                #294 Yesterday, 09:17 PM
                Steve
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                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                Only a few weeks after the murder Hanratty was on the run. He went to Blackpool and was captured by local police here.
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                #295 Yesterday, 09:28 PM
                Graham
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                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                Hi Steve.

                Thanks for the photo. I assume it's pretty recent, and that the Stevonia is still functioning. Why, I wonder, did the two DC's arrest him? Was it purely on suspicion, or recognition, or a tip-off, or what?

                Cheers,

                Graham


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                #296 Yesterday, 09:30 PM
                mayerling
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                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                Excuse me - photo 9 is supposed to be Hanratty. I've seen the photo before, but whereas photo 10 shows a lively personality, photo 9 seesm rather dead. Is photo 9 a picture of the living James Hanratty, or is it a photo of say the wax statue of Hanratty at Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors? If the latter, I'm curious to know why it got selected for that book to be put against the other three photos of Aphron and Hanratty which are of apparently lively people.

                Jeff


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                #297 Yesterday, 09:44 PM
                Graham
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                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                Quote:
                Originally Posted by mayerling
                Excuse me - photo 9 is supposed to be Hanratty. I've seen the photo before, but whereas photo 10 shows a lively personality, photo 9 seesm rather dead. Is photo 9 a picture of the living James Hanratty, or is it a photo of say the wax statue of Hanratty at Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors? If the latter, I'm curious to know why it got selected for that book to be put against the other three photos of Aphron and Hanratty which are of apparently lively people.

                Jeff


                Hi Jeff.

                What photos are you referring to? Or has my sodding computer lost a post again???

                Cheers,

                Graham

                Just got in while I can still edit, have back-tracked, and I see what you're referring to. Hmm, yes. I can see what you're getting at. Not 100% sure, though. I don't think it's the Tussaud waxwork. The best photo of Hanratty is the one opposite Page 241 of Foot's book, showing him lively and obviously happy, and evidently taken without his realising that a camera was pointed at him.

                Graham

                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Last edited by Graham : Yesterday at 09:50 PM.


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                #298 Today, 02:05 AM
                mayerling
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                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                Hi Graham,

                I've seen the photo of the "staring" lifeless Jimmy Hanratty before, but I keep thinking it is of a wax figure. Frequently "photos" of killers are actually photos of their Tussaud figures - most notably Mrs. Pearcey and Mrs. Dyer.

                The other photo was a normal photo - showing (at that moment) a normal human being.

                Best wishes,

                Jeff


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                #299 Today, 08:12 AM
                larue
                Police Constable Join Date: Apr 2007
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                photo 9

                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                hi all

                i have always thought that photo 9 was a police photo, as it lookes so 'staged' and the subject's pose looks very unnatural. i have even never considered the possibility that it might be a waxwork dummy. [ good one if it is!!! ] there is also another, similar photo, taken from an angle. this also looks unnatural. the reason i wondered if it might be a police photo, is that, unlike the other photos of Hanratty, which show a normal looking kind of guy, photo 9 looks more like the VS description of Hanratty, which, to me at least, would seem a bit ominous! knowing the exact date and source subject of photo 9 would help a lot.

                can anyone resolve the issue of the original description of Hanratty? i have just read Leonard Miller's book, 'Shadows of Deadman's Hill' and he seems to think that the 'blue staring saucer-like eyes' description [ which, in a way tallies with photo 9 ] was in fact the original VS description, but the ITN news broadcast of August 23 seems to contradict that?

                atb

                larue


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                #300 Today, 09:00 AM
                Steve
                Inspector Join Date: May 2007
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                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Graham
                Hi Steve.

                Thanks for the photo. I assume it's pretty recent, and that the Stevonia is still functioning. Why, I wonder, did the two DC's arrest him? Was it purely on suspicion, or recognition, or a tip-off, or what?

                Cheers,

                Graham


                Hello Graham

                Yes, it's a recent photograph and, yes, the Stevonia is still trading. As you can see it's had a face-lift since 1961, but it's still in the same location.

                I have never discovered why the two police officers visited the Stevonia, one of them was a detective constable, so it's unlikely that they just dropped into the cafe by chance or on a routine patrol. It was a Wednesday evening, off-season, so you cannot imagine there was any trouble at the cafe. What's more likely is that someone at the cafe recognised Hanratty, possibly his hair colour gave him away, and then phoned the police.

                When the policemen arrived at the cafe they looked inside to check for themselves that it was Hanratty sitting there, and then waited outside to arrest him when he left. Hanratty probably didn't realise that he had been seen and was probably unaware that the police were waiting for him outside the cafe. What is absolutely certain, though, is that the police officers knew exactly who he was because one of them, James Williams, tried to get Hanratty to confess to the murder on the way to the police station.

                Kind regards,
                Steve
                atb

                larue

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                • #98
                  Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel
                  James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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                  #301 Today, 09:43 AM
                  Steve
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                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by larue
                  hi all

                  i have always thought that photo 9 was a police photo, as it lookes so 'staged' and the subject's pose looks very unnatural. Knowing the exact date and source subject of photo 9 would help a lot.

                  can anyone resolve the issue of the original description of Hanratty? i have just read Leonard Miller's book, 'Shadows of Deadman's Hill' and he seems to think that the 'blue staring saucer-like eyes' description [ which, in a way tallies with photo 9 ] was in fact the original VS description, but the ITN news broadcast of August 23 seems to contradict that?

                  atb

                  larue


                  Hello Larue

                  These photos have been reproduced from Paul Foot's book 'Who Killed Hanratty?' and you are correct that photo 9 is a police photograph. I don't know if it was taken before or after the murder, or when it was first published, but it has been used many times in newspaper articles about the A6 murder since the early sixties and some of the articles captioned it as the official police ‘mugshot.’

                  Regarding the blue eyes issue, it has always been my understanding that Miss Storie’s description always included the killer’s eyes as being blue. I believe the brown eyes came about as a result of a police error. A short-hand version of the description included ‘b-eyes’ or bl-eyes’ and this was read out on the ITN news broadcast mistakenly as ‘brown eyes.’ This error was immediately realised and corrected with the next bulletin, but of course it has become part of the controversy especially with Alphon’s eyes being brown, although I believe he actually had hazel eyes.

                  Kind regards,
                  Steve

                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Last edited by Steve : Today at 10:09 AM. Reason: Missed out a word!


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                  #302 Today, 09:53 AM
                  Steve
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                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by granger
                  Does anyone know what has happened to Alphon? I am positive he is still alive, but despite an intensive Google search I have been unable to answer this question.


                  Hi Granger

                  Why are you positive that he is still alive?

                  Someone posted a while back that Alphon was no longer alive, but if he is still alive I would guess that he would want to keep a very low profile.

                  Kind regards,
                  Steve


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                  #303 Today, 10:30 AM
                  larue
                  Police Constable Join Date: Apr 2007
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                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Steve
                  Hello Larue

                  Regarding the blue eyes issue, it has always been my understanding that Miss Storie’s description always included the killer’s eyes as being blue. I believe the brown eyes came about as a result of a police error. A short-hand version of the description included ‘b-eyes’ or bl-eyes’ and this was read out on the ITN news broadcast mistakenly as ‘brown eyes.’ This error was immediately realised and corrected with the next bulletin, but of course it has become part of the controversy especially with Alphon’s eyes being brown, although I believe he actually had hazel eyes.

                  Kind regards,
                  Steve


                  hi Steve

                  ah, that would explain the error in color, thanks. but where does the 'saucer-like and staring' part originate, i wonder?

                  atb

                  larue


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                  #304 Today, 10:49 AM
                  Steve
                  Inspector Join Date: May 2007
                  Location: Hampshire, England
                  Posts: 147




                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  Hi Larue

                  I believe that ‘staring blue eyes’ was first used as part of the description when Janet Gregsten ‘identified’ Hanratty as the killer to her brother-in-law as he walked into a dry cleaning shop in Swiss Cottage, although this aspect of the case was not made public until after the trial.

                  ‘Icy blue saucer-like eyes’ was a description given by Valerie Storie to police as she was recovering from her injuries in hospital. This description was made public by the Bedfordshire police.

                  KR
                  Steve


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                  #305 Today, 01:49 PM
                  Limehouse
                  Police Constable Join Date: Jul 2007
                  Location: Cambridgeshire
                  Posts: 23




                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Graham
                  Evenin' all.

                  That old Identikit system was notoriously 'subjective', as the police themselve eventually decided. Personally, I could never quite see any real resemblance between the Identikit put together by Valerie and either Alphon or Hanratty. And I couldn't, and can't, see much resemblance between Alphon and Hanratty in the flesh, either, to go by available photographs of them. But it was the best and only tool the police had in 1961. Prior to that, a skilled artist would put together a sketch of a suspect based upon someone's description.

                  The thing about the DNA, Granger, it that it wasn't just the underwear that was tested, but also the hankie that the gun was wrapped in, and that, so far as I am able to tell, was stored on its own and showed only one male DNA trace, that of Hanratty when compared with the DNA taken from his remains.

                  Bob Woffinden traced Alphon in 1991 to a lodging-house in Euston, but he didn't want to discuss the case. He was also filmed on a railway-station platform, and I believe this clip was shown in The Mystery Of Deadman's Hill, depicting him in his 'traditional' mac packing up and down the platform; however, I don't know at what date this piece of film was shot. Someone on this thread stated a while back that Alphon is now dead. I'd be interested to know how that poster discovered that Alphon had died. He'd be 77 now if still alive. Again according to Woffinden, his last 'confession' was made to Jeremy Fox in 1971, but this time he had Janet Gregsten (wearing a blonde wig) meeting him in the Old Station Inn on the night of the murder, exhorting Alphon to 'do it'. Yes, well.

                  Cheers,

                  Graham


                  To be fair to Woffinden, although he described Alphon's 'confession' to Fox in 1971, he completely rejected it, stating it was another of Alphon's stories. In his book, Woffinden comes close to offering a motive. He suggests that a man in love with Janet Gregsten paid to have Storie and Gregsten 'frightened' or disposed of because he wanted Janet for himself. However, he is unclear as to how Hanratty was framed. There was, however, an interesting, if distant connection between Hanratty and Gregsten. Janet Gregsten's brother-in-law, William Ewer was an antiques dealer and he knew the woman who used to pay Hanratty for stolen goods. She was another antiques dealer and she and Hanratty were close friends. before her death, Janet Gregsten admitted that she had an affair with Ewer (although she insisted it started after her husband's death).

                  Woffinden was sure that Alphon was the true killer, but that he had never told the true story of what happened that night, despite all of his confessions.

                  I wonder if Woffinden is still alive and if so, what does he make of the DNA evidence?


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                  #306 Today, 02:18 PM
                  Steve
                  Inspector Join Date: May 2007
                  Location: Hampshire, England
                  Posts: 147




                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  Hello Limehouse

                  Bob Woffinden is still very much alive and campaigning against injustice.

                  His theory about Janet & Bill Ewer also featured in the television programme he made on the A6 murder and caused Janet considerable distress. Her family believe this contributed to her early death.

                  I don't think the link between Ewer and Louise was every conclusively proved? Another unproved link was between Ewer and Dixie France. The chances are that they all did know one another to some degree or another, it is after all a small world!

                  Kind regards,
                  Steve
                  atb

                  larue

                  Comment

                  • #99
                    Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel
                    James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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                    #311 6th August 2007, 04:28 PM
                    Graham
                    Superintendent Join Date: Jul 2006
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                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Hi Limehouse.

                    Woffinden didn't name Ewer in his book for the simple reason that Ewer was alive, kicking and with a record of at least one successful libel action arising from the Hanratty Case. However, Leonard Miller named him as 'The Central Figure', and I guess he assumed that by then Ewer was dead.

                    According to Woffinden, in 1943 Janet Gregsten lived for a short time in the same house as her half-sister Valerie (and other siblings) who was married to William Ewer. Obviously they must have known each other well and kept their acquaintance going. She did admit to a brief affair with Ewer, but this was apparently after the trial when I guess she needed companionship.

                    The possibility that Janet hired someone to break up the relationship between her husband and Valerie Storie is, frankly, preposterous and I dismiss it out of hand. Almost as unlikely is the idea that a 'Central Figure' paid a gunman to put paid to Michael Gregsten. Alphon played this line, fingers were pointed as we are all well aware, but I don't buy it.

                    What I do think is a distinct possibility is that Louise Anderson did know Ewer and did business with him, as did Hanratty who used her as a fence for his stolen property. Acott leaned very heavily upon Anderson to the extent that she was a prosecution witness at the trial. Did Hanratty and Ewer ever meet? Don't know, but always possible. Did Ewer and Anderson know Charles France? Don't know, but again always possible. But it would appear that none of these characters ever really profited from their possible mutual acquaintance, as all of them, except perhaps Ewer who seemed at least to make a living, appeared to live from one day to the next. Although it's very tempting (and I certainly have been tempted) to link Hanratty with Alphon before the murder, there's no proof of this. I would have to say that Alphon's presence in the case was coincidental - but don't know for sure and probably never will.

                    Cheers,

                    Graham

                    PS: I agree with you, Steve, regarding Hanratty's arrest at the Stevonia. I don't think I ever recall reading how the two Detective-Constables came across him, unless it was a tip-off made immediately prior to their arrival at the cafe.


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                    #312 6th August 2007, 04:37 PM
                    Graham
                    Superintendent Join Date: Jul 2006
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                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by Steve
                    Hi Limehouse

                    Hanratty was sure he wouldn't be convicted, and I think most people in the court including the judge thought he wouldn't be convicted.

                    I believe it to be 100% the case that James Hanratty should not have been convicted at the trial in 1962. It is not a question of guilt, but a matter of justice. There was not enough evidence for the conviction to be considered a safe conviction.

                    Only the members of the jury know why they brought in the guilty verdict. It would be interesting to hear from any jurors at the Hanratty trial still alive today.

                    Best wishes,
                    Steve


                    Hi Steve.

                    Not sure where I heard this, but I have a vague memory that someone, probably Miller, did make efforts to locate any still-living jurors. If so, I don't know if he was successful. Hanratty most definitely should not have been convicted at his trial, no way. But there you go - the police and the establishment needed a result in this very high-profile case, and they got one. Acott's only post-trial comment was that he thought it was a 'gas-meter job', i.e., an inside job, but I have to be honest that I'm not really sure what he meant or was implying.

                    Cheers,

                    Graham


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                    #313 6th August 2007, 06:47 PM
                    Steve
                    Inspector Join Date: May 2007
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                    Posts: 170




                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by Graham
                    Did Ewer and Anderson know Charles France? Don't know, but again always possible.


                    Hi Graham

                    I think it was shown that there was some kind of link between Ewer & Dixie, wasn't it? Didn't Dixie France go to Ewer and 'pour his heart out to him?

                    Even if Louise Anderson and Dixie France never actually met they must have been aware of one another. With Hanratty staying the night with both of them on occasion he must have talked about his friends to them.

                    I always thought it strange that he met both Anderson and France at the same time in his life, and that both were clearly good friends of Hanratty, and that in the final analysis both betrayed him.

                    Rgds,
                    Steve


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                    #314 6th August 2007, 06:52 PM
                    Steve
                    Inspector Join Date: May 2007
                    Location: Hampshire, England
                    Posts: 170


                    Liverpool Sweetshop

                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Here is another photograph.

                    Believe it or not the black car is parked at the exact spot where the sweetshop stood. Not approximately, exactly!
                    Attached Images



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                    #315 6th August 2007, 08:50 PM
                    Graham
                    Superintendent Join Date: Jul 2006
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                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Hi Steve.

                    Another great pic! But - looking at your photo and the photo of the sweetshop in Foot's book, shouldn't the car be on the opposite corner? I assume that Scotland Road is the one down which the two men are walking. Foot's photo was taken from across the main road towards the shop which is on the left-hand side of the T-junction. The position of the car would suggest that the shop was on the right-hand side of the T-junction. But no big deal. Not one single tree on sight in Foot's photo, either, so some things have changed for the better.

                    I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've been to Liverpool, the last time being to have a look at Battlecrease. It never occurred to me at the time to go on a Hanratty Tour, although I've been to Rhyl and visited Ingledene.

                    Re: Dixie France and Ewer, the latter stated that he only ever met Dixie once in his life, after the trial, and that Dixie came to apologise for Gregsten's death. If he said any more, then it isn't recorded. However, if this meeting was before the appeal, then I'd have said that Ewer had a moral duty to relay what was said to Hanratty's defence. On the other hand, Ewer does come over as a rather puffed-up and pompous individual, so if any meeting with Dixie did take place, maybe Ewer inflated it a little. And why on earth should Dixie France apologise for the murder unless he had something to do with it? Where, one asks, are the bulk of his letters and other writings found with his body? The police took them and they disappeared.

                    Cheers,

                    Graham


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                    #316 Yesterday, 06:32 PM
                    Steve
                    Inspector Join Date: May 2007
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                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Hi Graham

                    I know what you mean about about the position of the car, but believe me it is parked where the sweetshop stood.

                    When I went to try and locate the site of the sweetshop it took me a long time to pinpoint the precise location. I had nothing more than the old black & white photograph and the address, 408 Scotland Road, to go on. The ‘old’ buildings on that side of the road stop at number 362, and there are some new industrial units numbered after that, but no current number 408. The sweetshop and much of the surrounding area was demolished in the early 1970’s and the layout of the roads changed.

                    What helped to locate the site was the underground public convenience which can be seen in the black & white photograph. Amazingly it is still there, now disused and with a steel plate blocking it off. I’ll post a picture of it. Also a parade of shops, on the opposite side of the road, which look remarkably like the sweetshop building and must have been built at the same time, probably by the same builders.

                    Pinpointing the exact spot took quite a bit of detective work. I asked some local people walking along Scotland Road but no-one remembered the old road layout and I was advised to talk to the people in a nearby mobility shop who have been there for many years. When I got there I parked outside a flower shop, and for some reason decided to ask in there instead, which turned out to be quite a good decision.

                    The flower shop owner, John Horne, has been there for over forty years and was able to tell me exactly where the sweet shop stood. More than that, although he knew little about the Hanratty case, he did remember that the Liverpool police visited his flower shop when he was a boy. The reason they visited was because Hanratty had bought flowers in the shop, then owned by his father, and the police were trying to establish which day he bought them, would you believe!

                    He also had an old black & white photograph of the sweetshop with the street name just about visible. It’s very low-res but if it will scan with decent quality I'll post it when I get chance.

                    Kind regards,
                    Steve




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                    #317 Yesterday, 06:51 PM
                    Steve
                    Inspector Join Date: May 2007
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                    Liverpool Sweetshop

                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Picture of disused public conveniences in Liverpool close to the sweetshop that featured strongly in Hanratty's Liverpool alibi
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                    #318 Yesterday, 07:15 PM
                    Steve
                    Inspector Join Date: May 2007
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                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by Graham
                    Re: Dixie France and Ewer, the latter stated that he only ever met Dixie once in his life, after the trial, and that Dixie came to apologise for Gregsten's death. If he said any more, then it isn't recorded. However, if this meeting was before the appeal, then I'd have said that Ewer had a moral duty to relay what was said to Hanratty's defence. On the other hand, Ewer does come over as a rather puffed-up and pompous individual, so if any meeting with Dixie did take place, maybe Ewer inflated it a little. And why on earth should Dixie France apologise for the murder unless he had something to do with it? Where, one asks, are the bulk of his letters and other writings found with his body? The police took them and they disappeared.


                    Hi Graham

                    There certainly was a link between Louise Anderson and Bill Ewer. They definitely knew one another, at the trial they were said to be associates working in the same business and apparently discussed the murder even before Hanratty figured in the investigation. Yes, Ewer stated that he had only ever met Dixie once, on the occasion that Dixie went to Ewer’s shop to apologise for the murder, but that whole statement of Ewer’s was fishy in the extreme!

                    I agree, the letters he wrote at the time of his suicide should be made public. Perhaps they will be made public soon under one of those 50-year rules. Knowing my luck they will be covered by a 150-year rule!!!

                    Best wishes,
                    Steve


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                    #319 Yesterday, 08:39 PM
                    Graham
                    Superintendent Join Date: Jul 2006
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                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Hi Steve.

                    So, you go round taking pics of gents' lavatories, eh?

                    Looking at your photo, the steel-tube hoop or whatever it is is nearest to the camera, so if you were to look to the left, and a bit backwards, out of shot, you'd see the sweet-shop with the large BACHELOR cigarette sign, if it were still standing. Nex to door to a cafe (I think) called ELSIE'S, per Paul Foot's photo. On the opposite corner, where the BMW is parked in your first photo, is a large 3-storey building with a 'News Of The World' and I think what might be a 'National Savings' sign at the height of the first floor.

                    Who did Hanratty buy the flowers for, at Horne's shop, I wonder? Or was it an Interflora job? For his mother, maybe?

                    Louise Anderson was a total nervous wreck during the trial - she was between the devil and the deep blue sea. If Hanratty was convicted, then she would have been party to sending a man to his death; if he was acquitted, she ran the risk of his revenge. Acott had got her precisely where he wanted her. The fact that she and Ewer were known to each (common knowledge) speaks volumes for Ewer's business acumen, as she was apparently well-known as a fence. I wonder if she and Hanratty really were casual lovers, as some say?

                    I once wrote to the Bedfordshire police to ask them (a) what happened to the Morris Minor and (b) what happened to Dixie France's letters, but got no reply. Maybe as far as the latter is concerned I ought to have written to the Met. I also wrote to Leonard Miller c/o his publishers along the same lines, and got no reply to that, either.

                    Cheers,

                    Graham


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                    #320 Yesterday, 08:56 PM
                    Limehouse
                    Sergeant Join Date: Jul 2007
                    Location: Cambridgeshire
                    Posts: 32




                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    So, let's examine what we have here.

                    James Hanratty, a small-time crook with no record of violence or sexual deviancy, is wandering around the English countryside late one summer's evening with a gun in his pocket when he happens across a couple parked out of site in a cornfield.

                    He hijacks the couple and together they drive around the countryside for several hours before he shots dead the male, rapes the female and pumps several bullets into her body, leaving her for dead. He drives off in the car and dumps it in a London street. He makes no profit from the crime what-so-ever.

                    Now, the man who he shoots dead in a cornfield miles from anywhere, who is chosen at random, just happens to be the brother-in-law of another man who knows perhaps TWO friends of James Hanratty who themselves give evidence that helps to convict James Hanratty of murder.

                    It just doesn't add up. I just can't believe he carried out such a motiveless, unproductive, risky and pointless crime. There has to be something more to this.
                    atb

                    larue

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                    • #100
                      Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel
                      James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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                      #321 Yesterday, 09:04 PM
                      Graham
                      Superintendent Join Date: Jul 2006
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                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Hi Limehouse.

                      Ah well, yes. Here we have the definite sound of a nail being hit upon its head.

                      This really is the crux of the matter - was it random, or was it not?

                      If random, then so be it.

                      If not random, then we come back around to Michael Sherrard's comment that this case was dripping with coincidence.

                      What do you think?

                      Cheers,

                      Graham


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                      #322 Yesterday, 09:17 PM
                      Limehouse
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                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Hi Graham,

                      I think if it was Hanratty then it wasn't random.

                      A random crime of this sort is much more likely to have been carried out by someone with some sort of personality disorder, a psychopath who enjoys inflicting pain and suffering for no reason except perhaps for a sense of power or out of a sense of outrage.

                      I don't think we will ever know all the answers to this one though.

                      Regards

                      Limehouse


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                      #323 Yesterday, 09:47 PM
                      Steve
                      Inspector Join Date: May 2007
                      Location: Hampshire, England
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                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by Graham
                      So, you go round taking pics of gents' lavatories, eh? Looking at your photo, the steel-tube hoop or whatever it is is nearest to the camera, so if you were to look to the left, and a bit backwards, out of shot, you'd see the sweet-shop with the large BACHELOR cigarette sign, if it were still standing. Nex to door to a cafe (I think) called ELSIE'S, per Paul Foot's photo. On the opposite corner, where the BMW is parked in your first photo, is a large 3-storey building with a 'News Of The World' and I think what might be a 'National Savings' sign at the height of the first floor. Who did Hanratty buy the flowers for, at Horne's shop, I wonder? Or was it an Interflora job? For his mother, maybe?


                      Your scepticism is noted!

                      My BMW is parked in the exact place where the van is parked in the b&w photo – the difference is my car is facing towards the shop whereas the van is facing sideways to the shop and down Taylor Street. The tree is growing through the middle of the shop.

                      Hanratty bought flowers for his mother in Scotland Road – read the books – this is why I was so surprised at John’s spontaneous statement about the police visiting his family flower shop.

                      The ‘steel-tube hoop’ is the entrance to the public convenience – it is only significant because it helps locate the site of the sweetshop which is an important landmark in this case.


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                      #324 Yesterday, 09:51 PM
                      Steve
                      Inspector Join Date: May 2007
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                      Old B&W Phot of Sweetshop

                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Hanratty's alibi included his visit to this sweetshop in August 1961. It was demolished in the early 1970's.
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                      #325 Yesterday, 09:53 PM
                      Graham
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                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Hi Steve.

                      OK, I think I'm with you - the sweetshop was under the 'News Of The World' sign, then?

                      It's just that the 'Bachelor' sign shop looks more like a typical traditional street-corner sweetshop/tobacconist.

                      And yes, I do now recall that Hanratty bought flowers for his mother in Scotland Road.

                      All is now clear.

                      Cheers,

                      Graham


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                      #326 Yesterday, 09:58 PM
                      Steve
                      Inspector Join Date: May 2007
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                      Liverpool Sweetshop

                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Here is the photo given to me by John at the flower shop in Scotland Road - very poor quality! If you can read it, it shows the shop to be on the corner of Taylor Street, and it also shows the owner to be D. Cowley who was at the time Lord Mayor of Liverpool.
                      Attached Images



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                      #327 Yesterday, 10:03 PM
                      Steve
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                      Liverpool Sweetshop

                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Taylor Street is where the little van was parked in the b&w photo and was where the sweet shop intersected with Scotland Road - pinpointing this established 100% where the site of the sweet shop is today, even though that part of Liverpool has changed considerably since Hanratty's days.
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                      #328 Yesterday, 10:03 PM
                      Graham
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                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Hi Steve.

                      So the BACHELOR shop is the sweetshop? I think I've got my bearings all arse-about backwards here.

                      Or what?

                      Cheers,

                      Graham


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                      #329 Yesterday, 10:07 PM
                      Graham
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                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Hi Steve.

                      Just clocked your map. OK, mate, I think I'm with you.

                      Taliesin Street? Could that name be to one of Hanratty's below-average intellect misunderstood to be Tarleton Street? Just a thought.

                      I feel a business-visit to Liverpool coming on....

                      Cheers,

                      Graham


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                      #330 Yesterday, 10:10 PM
                      Steve
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                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by Graham
                      OK, I think I'm with you - the sweetshop was under the 'News Of The World' sign, then? It's just that the 'Bachelor' sign shop looks more like a typical traditional street-corner sweetshop/tobacconist. And yes, I do now recall that Hanratty bought flowers for his mother in Scotland Road. All is now clear.



                      My BMW is pointing away from the NEWS OF THE WORLD sign. The sign would have been behind the car, and I am parked across the junction of Taylor Street & Scotland Road. Mrs Dinwoodie was serving in the sweet shop with the Bachelor sign. The two people in the photograph are walking away from Liverpool, they are on the A59 towards Preston (and eventually Scotland!)
                      atb

                      larue

                      Comment

                      • #101
                        Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel
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                        #331 Yesterday, 10:17 PM
                        Steve
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                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Limehouse
                        I think if it was Hanratty then it wasn't random. A random crime of this sort is much more likely to have been carried out by someone with some sort of personality disorder, a psychopath who enjoys inflicting pain and suffering for no reason except perhaps for a sense of power or out of a sense of outrage.


                        Hello Limehouse

                        Do we know enough about Hanratty to rule out psycopathic behaviour?


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                        #332 Today, 12:17 AM
                        jimarilyn
                        Police Constable Join Date: Jun 2007
                        Location: Liverpool
                        Posts: 11


                        Liverpool/Rhyl alibi has the ring of truth

                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Call me naive or gullible but the more I learn about the A6 murder the more I am convinced of James Hanratty's innocence. His movements/behaviour both before and after the murder are, in my humble opinion not at all consistent with someone who has brutally murdered one person and raped and left for dead another. The following times are approximate :

                        Monday 21st August 1961:

                        11.00am : Puts green suit into Burtols Cleaners in Swiss Cottage (confirmed by John Wood, supervisor)
                        2.30 - 6.30pm : At the France's home (confirmed by Charles, Charlotte and Carol France). Charles France told magistrates that Hanratty (dressed in a chalk stripe blue suit) said he was going to Liverpool to see an old aunt in Liverpool.
                        Between 6.30pm and 10pm : Ann Price sees Hanratty (carrying a leather suitcase) a couple of times at the Rehearsal Club.
                        11.00pm - 11.30pm : Seen by manager of Broadway House Hotel.
                        11.30pm - 12.00am : Signs in as J.Ryan at Vienna Hotel, Maida Vale.

                        Tuesday 22nd August 1961 :

                        8.30am - 9am : Leaves Vienna Hotel
                        10.20am or 10.35 am : Catches train from Euston Station to Lime Street Station, Liverpool.
                        Between 2.30pm and 4pm : Arrives at Lime Street Station, Liverpool.
                        Between 4pm and 5pm : Calls at sweet shop on Scotland Road, asking for directions to a Carleton, Tarleton, Talbot or some such like road or street.
                        Between 5pm and 6pm : Returns to Lime Street Station.
                        6pm - 8.19 pm : Travels on Crosville bus to Rhyl
                        8.19pm - 9.30pm : Makes enquiries at several B & B's for accommodation before finding a place at Ingledene, where he spends the next couple of nights.

                        Wednesday 23rd August 1961 :

                        Spends all of the day in Rhyl. Spends considerable time at funfair looking ( in vain )for a Terry Evans whom he had met exactly a month before and who knew fences in Rhyl who would be interested in stolen goods.Trevor Dutton, a very trustworthy citizen, described how on this particular day ... "he had been approached by a young man in a two-toned ,dark grey and light grey suit who had offered to sell him a gold watch." Although he could not identify the man, this fit in with Hanratty's claim that he had tried to sell a gold watch to a man the previous day in Lime Street, Liverpool.

                        Thursday 24th August 1961 :

                        Returns to Liverpool about midday. Goes to funfair at New Brighton, on the other side of the Mersey ( a very popular resort in those days ). Attends the Howard Winstone v Aryee Jackson boxing fight at Liverpool Stadium in evening (less than a mile away from Lime Street Station).
                        8.40pm : Sends telegram from Lime Street Station to the Frances.

                        Thursday/Friday 24th/25th August 1961 :

                        Takes overnight train back to London

                        Hanratty remains visible in London until September 4th when he flies to Ireland to obtain a driving licence. Several days later, upon his return to London he is again visible and continuing with his housebreaking and thieving right up to early October, when he becomes aware that the police are looking for him as a suspect in the A6 murder.

                        A very interesting observation about James Hanratty's habits is that he was very fond of fairgrounds. Were they a haunting ground for fences, a popular place to offload stolen goods I wonder. Battersea Park, Rhyl, New Brighton and Blackpool are all places he is known to have frequented. Did some underworld informer tip off the police that he was in Blackpool on the 11th of October.

                        Hanratty's behaviour before and after the A6 murder contrasts starkly with the highly suspicious behaviour of the original suspect Peter Alphon, who went into hiding at the Alexandra Court Hotel for 5 days immediately after the murder. It was his very strange behaviour which aroused the suspicions of several hotel guests there. And then there's the Vienna Hotel...........Of all the hundreds of hotels in London he just happened to have been in the Vienna, Maida Vale, on the day of the murder. The same hotel where 2 cartridge cases from the murder weapon were found. He was not seen at the hotel until the latter part of that morning and then in a very dishevelled state.............. I wonder what time he sneaked back into the hotel that morning ???


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                        #333 Today, 07:08 AM
                        Steve
                        Inspector Join Date: May 2007
                        Location: Hampshire, England
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                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by jimarilyn
                        And then there's the Vienna Hotel...........Of all the hundreds of hotels in London he just happened to have been in the Vienna, Maida Vale, on the day of the murder. The same hotel where 2 cartridge cases from the murder weapon were found. He was not seen at the hotel until the latter part of that morning and then in a very dishevelled state.............. I wonder what time he sneaked back into the hotel that morning ???


                        Hello Jimarilyn

                        Alphon didn’t really have a watertight alibi for the murder night, if not it would almost certainly have been stated at the trial. He was variously said to have been either at Slough dog track, out selling almanacs, or tucked up for the night at the Vienna.

                        The problem with Nudds statement to the police that implicated Alphon is that it was clearly a pack of lies. Nudds apparently discovered Alphon in the dishevelled state you mention in the morning a few hours after the murder. He discovered him when knocking on the door to ask if he was coming down to breakfast and when not getting an answer letting himself into the room with his pass key.

                        This is rubbish! When do hotels try and roundup guests for breakfast? In my experience of staying in hotels (which I am sorry to have to report is vast) this has never happened once. A character such as Nudds would have finished cooking and serving breakfast as soon as he could.

                        As for letting himself in with his pass key, also unlikely, especially if he knew there was a guest in the room, and Alphon would probably have responded to the knock on the door with an ‘I don’t want breakfast’ reply.

                        The Nudds statements prove nothing other than the fact that he was a liar and a police informer. His statements could have virtually been dictated by the police to tally with their current line of enquiry.


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                        #334 Today, 07:31 AM
                        Limehouse
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                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Steve
                        Hello Limehouse

                        Do we know enough about Hanratty to rule out psycopathic behaviour?



                        Hello again Steve,

                        Yes, I think we do have quite a lot of evidence to suggest Hanratty was not a psychopath.

                        Firstly, he had a warm and loving relationship with his family. He had normal relationships with women. All the women traced whom he courted stated he was considerate towards them and behaved like a gentleman (although having sex with Charles Frances' daughter in a car on their first date does seem a bit keen for the times, I think).

                        Although no angel, when committing his crimes he is known to have chosen business premises and unoccupied homes in affluent areas because he reasoned that these would be insured and the losses therefore more tolerable. I know it sounds silly to say that this was being considerate, but a psychopath would not have this degree of empathy.

                        Psychopaths are cold and they show very little, if any warmth towards other humans and have no regard for the feelings of others.

                        Regards

                        LImehouse


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                        #335 Today, 10:56 AM
                        jimarilyn
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                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Hi

                        Re. the actual murder, I believe wholeheartedly that this was a callous, calculated and pre-meditated killing. If it was the murderer's intention to just frighten the lovers then why the need for a loaded revolver and plenty of ammunition. He was obviously playing a deadly cat and mouse game with Gregsten and Storie during those five and a half hours. Also, when Michael Gregsten stopped for petrol, the murderer would have had to remove ( if he hadn't already done so ) the tied handkerchief from his face otherwise the petrol pump attendant's suspicions would have been highly aroused. For at least a minute or two then the murderer's face would have been in full or partial view to at least 3 people. Service stations are well lit up places.

                        I believe a very warped but clever mind was at work that night. James Hanratty certainly didn't fit into that category in my opinion. Having read Paul Foot's, Bob Woffinden's, Leonard Miller's and Jean Justice's books only one man emerges in this light. He toyed with Acott, attacked at least one other female, threatened to kill Justice and put several people through mental turmoil with his menacing and persistent phone calls. He admitted to the murder when he knew the death penalty had been abolished. "Phone later P"


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                        #336 Today, 12:01 PM
                        Graham
                        Superintendent Join Date: Jul 2006
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                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        The crazy thing about the Hanratty Case is that had the DNA tests never been carried out, we'd all be here debating how it was he got stitched up by the police and received a totally-unfair trial. I think it's true to say that prior to the DNA very few observers of this case thought Hanratty was the guilty man - I know I didn't. Even a cursory examination of the basic facts of the case, the trial and the aftermath would be enough to convince almost anyone that a miscarriage of justice had occurred.

                        And then - the DNA! The sting in the tail, the kick up the rear.

                        I'd have placed good odds on the DNA being negative - and I'd have lost. This was probably one of the greatest shocks in modern criminology. I don't think anyone was expecting the result.

                        But what do you do? You can't just say, 'The DNA tests were faulty/contaminated/wrong/screwed-up/corrupt, etc., etc'. The tests were fair and they were accurate.

                        I'm a bit strapped for time just now, but more on this theme another time.

                        Cheers,

                        Graham


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                        #337 Today, 01:27 PM
                        granger
                        Inspector Join Date: Jan 2006
                        Location: Somerset, UK
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                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Graham
                        But what do you do? You can't just say, 'The DNA tests were faulty/contaminated/wrong/screwed-up/corrupt, etc., etc'. The tests were fair and they were accurate.




                        But that's the point, many are saying 'The DNA tests were faulty/contaminated/wrong/screwed-up/corrupt, etc., etc'.

                        Maybe the results of DNA testing was fair and accurate, but just how was the DNA transferred to the items in question?

                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Last edited by granger : Today at 01:30 PM.


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                        #338 Today, 01:47 PM
                        Steve
                        Inspector Join Date: May 2007
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                        Hello Limehouse

                        Do you believe this crime had to be committed by a psychopath, that only a psychopath could commit such a crime? If so, and assuming Hanratty was guilty, then he must have been a psychopath. Is it possible that he had latent psychopathic tendencies?

                        What do you think?


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                        #339 Today, 01:54 PM
                        Steve
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                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by jimarilyn
                        Re. the actual murder, I believe wholeheartedly that this was a callous, calculated and pre-meditated killing.


                        Hello Jimarilyn

                        It is very easy to be convinced that Hanratty was innocent, especially if you read the books by Paul Foot & Bob Woffinden. You have to bear in mind, though, that they were both very much convinced of Hanratty’s innocence, and their books inevitably reflect that belief.

                        However, with the DNA evidence there can be no doubt about Hanratty’s guilt.


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                        #340 Today, 01:57 PM
                        jimarilyn
                        Police Constable Join Date: Jun 2007
                        Location: Liverpool
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                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Hi
                        Enclosed is a page from Jean Justice's 1964 publication "Murder vs Murder : The British legal system and the A6 Murder Case"

                        James Hanratty's heart rending letter to his younger brother Michael speaks for itself. Prophetic words.
                        atb

                        larue

                        Comment

                        • #102
                          Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel
                          James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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                          #341 Today, 01:59 PM
                          Steve
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                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by granger
                          But that's the point, many are saying 'The DNA tests were faulty/contaminated/wrong/screwed-up/corrupt, etc., etc'.

                          Maybe the results of DNA testing was fair and accurate, but just how was the DNA transferred to the items in question?


                          Maybe at some time in the future new evidence will emerge to discredit the DNA testing.


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                          #342 Today, 02:03 PM
                          Steve
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                          This letter is published in most if not all of the other books on the A6 murder. It certainly does have the ring of being written by an innocent man, and it is easy to see why many people became convinced of Hanratty's innocence.

                          Someone posted the comment some time ago that Hanratty could well have been in denial and managed to convince even himself that he was not guilty.


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                          #343 Today, 02:34 PM
                          Steve
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                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by Graham
                          The crazy thing about the Hanratty Case is that had the DNA tests never been carried out, we'd all be here debating how it was he got stitched up by the police and received a totally-unfair trial.


                          Graham

                          You are quite right, without the DNA we would certainly be examining the complexities of this case in a different light.

                          What’s more, if Alphon had been convicted and hanged for the murder we would be debating just how thin the case against him was. The case would have been:

                          Valerie Storie’s positive identification of Peter Alphon
                          The fact that he was booked into The Vienna on the murder night, where cartridge cases from the murder weapon were subsequently found
                          A very incriminating statement from Nudds
                          That, in all probability, would have been it!

                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          Last edited by Steve : Today at 02:37 PM.


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                          #344 Today, 03:34 PM
                          Bucke Bleichert
                          Sergeant Join Date: Jul 2007
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                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          Wow! Shades of Lipstick! Shades of Chicago! Another thief pegged for brutal murders.
                          Thank you, Mr. Rigby. A worthy companion thread to Bill's....
                          It happens--everywhere....
                          I will have to direct S. Sherman to this thread.

                          Bill Heirens Is Innocent
                          atb

                          larue

                          Comment

                          • #103
                            Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel
                            James Hanratty: Guilty ?
                            Welcome, larue.
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                            #351 9th August 2007, 09:40 PM
                            richardn
                            Inspector Join Date: Jan 2006
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                            Hi,
                            The Hanratty case is unique, so many questions, and not enough answers.
                            Valerie Storie was absolutely convinced that Hanratty was the man that shot MG, and was absolutely convinced that he was the man that raped her, and absolutley convinced he was the man that whilst huddled by the body of her lover the man she pleaded with to spare her, was the man that shot her .that man being the accused.
                            How can we doubt the person who was a living witness [ albeit lucky] who lived through that trauma.
                            I can not accept Hanrattys innocence, although there are many questions left unanswered.
                            Hanratty whilst on remand must have been interviewed by at least a trio of top quacks to Id his sanity.
                            For Hanratty to have dumped a very 'Hot' murder weapon under the back seat of a london bus is subject to question his sanity at that time.
                            Yet he was fit to plead.
                            The mind boggles yet i feel compelled to respect Valeries absolute conviction that the institution hanged the right man.
                            Regards
                            Richard,


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                            #352 9th August 2007, 09:47 PM
                            Steve
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                            Hello Richard

                            I agree with you in everything you say - except that you say Valerie Storie WAS convinced. Actually she IS convinced, still to this day, that Hanratty was her attacker.

                            Kind regards,
                            Steve


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                            #353 10th August 2007, 08:41 PM
                            Graham
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                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            Hi Richard.

                            Another often-overlooked fact about James Hanratty is that when he was about 16 he absconded to Brighton and did some casula work for a while until he was admitted to hospital suffering from exposure. He underwent exploratory brain-surgery (it was thought that he'd had a brain-haemmorhage) and although there were no signs of this the doctors who treated him put him down as a 'mental defective' in the jargon of the day. Then a couple of years later he was arrested for housebreaking and whilst on remand he slashed his wrists. The medical officer at the prison stated that, in his opinion, Hanratty was 'a potential psychopath with hysterical tendencies'.
                            Yet no other examination of his mental state came to this conclusion, and he was considered 'fit to be executed'. But what remains is the very persuasive argument that he was not, from an early age, fully compos mentis, and indeed much of his subsequent behaviour suggests that he did have some kind of personality problem. I have long wondered if in fact he was schizophrenic, and that the Hanratty who murdered MG and raped and attempted to murder VS was not the same personality who (with the help of his warders) wrote those touching letters from the death-cell. Could be that he simply was unable to come to terms, or cope with, what he had done that night, so he just went into total denial.

                            And along these lines, don't forget that not only was Hanratty almost totally illiterate, he was inarticulate too, and his letters were doubtless composed with a good deal of sympathy by whoever wrote them for him. Along similar lines, I once completed a job-application for a person whose literacy and articulation were below average, and it goes without saying that, although this person made it to interview, there was no offer of a job, because by then that person was acting totally alone, without my assistance.

                            He should never have hanged. Yet not only is justice blind (or supposed to be) it can also be vengeful and in his case it took its course.

                            Lastly, would Sutcliffe have been executed for what he did, had that ultimate penalty been available?

                            Cheers,

                            Graham


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                            #354 10th August 2007, 10:10 PM
                            Steve
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                            Sutcliffe should have been executed for his crimes, if only as a deterrent to others. Whether he would have been executed is a totally different matter. We live in completely different times and the 20 years that separated Hanratty and Sutcliffe brought huge changes in society's attitude to crime and punishment.

                            There is of course a viewpoint that a life sentence in prison is more of a punishment than execution. Difficult to see it, but what is for certain is that Sutcliffe should never be released and he should die in prison.


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                            #355 10th August 2007, 10:38 PM
                            Graham
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                            Hi Steve,

                            Sutcliffe was considered by those who tried him for his crimes as basically insane. Had the death-penalty been available at the time of his trial, I would seriously doubt if it would have been applied. Hanratty, who 'only' murdered one person and raped and attempted the murder of another, yet whose history was that of an unstable individual, was executed. Not a question of double-standards, or anything like that: more that in the 20 years between the two cases there was a sea-change in the official view taken of how such a person should be treated by the law. Hanratty's crimes were unusual by the standards of the early 1960's. By the standards of the time, from the moment of his arrest, I don't think there was any question as to the outcome, his 'antecedents' notwithstanding. He was a dead man from the instant he was arrested at the Stevonia. It didn't much matter that the judge and numerous observers at the time expressed surprise at the verdict in his trial, the fact was that the jury of his peers, twelve good men and true and all that, saw no good reason for his continuing existence. Yes, we do have a different 'take' on such crimes these days, but looking at the state of affairs in the USA there are people on death row there who are condemned for much less appalling crimes than Hanratty's. The death-sentence is the 'easy' way out. Had Hanratty been judged by the standards of 2007, he'd never have been hanged. At least, not in this country.

                            Cheers,

                            Graham


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                            #356 11th August 2007, 08:21 AM
                            Steve
                            Inspector Join Date: May 2007
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                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            Graham

                            Sutcliffe pleaded not guilty to murder, guilty to manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility and guilty to seven counts of attempted murder. The psychiatric reports pointed to Sutcliffe suffering from paranoid schizophrenia, there was a ‘plea-bargain’ deal between defence and prosecution to accept that Sutcliffe’s diminished responsibility was the reason he killed, but the judge refused to accept this and ordered that Sutcliffe be tried before a jury. A majority of ten jurors found him to be sane and guilty of all thirteen murders and he was sentenced to life imprisonment. Although he is now in Broadmoor where mentally ill prisoners are kept, he was initially sent to Parkhurst which is a prison for sane criminals and was only eventually sent to Broadmoor for his own protection..

                            Since the trial further evidence has emerged demonstrating that Sutcliffe murdered his victims for sexual gratification, further proof that he was sane at the time of the murders. Sutcliffe said he was on mission to rid the world of prostitutes and was driven by a higher power to murder his victims. This was rubbish; some of his victims were perfectly respectable people not at all involved in prostitution. One of his victims was Josephine Whitaker who was only 19 years old and worked in a bank. He murdered her on a school playing field as she was walking home in a perfectly respectable suburb, nowhere near a red light area.

                            Not wanting to stray too far off-topic and returning to the Hanratty trial, his ‘jury of peers, twelve good men and true’ that you mention actually consisted of only eleven members. The twelfth went all weak at the knees at the mention of blood and was allowed to be taken home (probably by his mum.)

                            Rgds,
                            Steve


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                            #357 Yesterday, 02:43 PM
                            Limehouse
                            Sergeant Join Date: Jul 2007
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                            Hi Steve and Graham,

                            It is worth noting, when comparing Hanratty and Sutcliffe, that Sutcliffe had a higher than average IQ but achieved little from this at school.

                            Hanratty is said to have been mentally defective, but I think we should view this with caution as many of his traits suggest undiagnosed dyslexia which does not affect IQ but certaibly does affect performance which can lead to an illusion of low intelligence (especially in those days when these learning difficulties were hardly recognised). It is common for people with dyslexia to experience depression and low self esteem resulting from the frustrations they experience when trying to negotiate every day tasks (dyslexia affects more than just reading and writing skills).

                            It is likely however, that Hanratty was compromised by his inarticulation and his limited thinking skills whereas Sutcliffe could use his intelligence to think and speak his way out of prison and into a relatively comfortable sentence in an institution for the criminally insane. That is only my view however, and I am not an expert in crminal psychology.

                            In my view, even if guilty, Hanratty should not have hanged. I don't believe in capital punishment so I don't think Sutcliffe should have been hanged but life for him should mean life.


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                            #358 Yesterday, 03:20 PM
                            Steve
                            Inspector Join Date: May 2007
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                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            Hi Limehouse

                            I do think that capital punishment has its place, as a deterrent, but should only be used for the type of crime that horrifies us all; child murder, rape that ends in murder and the murder of a police officer.

                            I agree that Hanratty should not have been hanged on the evidence presented at the trial and have said so previously.

                            As for Sutcliffe, however, he qualifies on two of my above criteria!

                            Kind regards,
                            Steve


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                            #359 Today, 01:58 PM
                            jimarilyn
                            Police Constable Join Date: Jun 2007
                            Location: Liverpool
                            Posts: 14




                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            Hi,

                            Here's an intriguing thought to ponder on. The murderer, having shot and killed Michael Gregsten with 2 bullets, then allegedly raped Valerie Storie in the very confined space of the back seat of a Morris Minor ( which under all the prevailing circumstances must have been a bit ghoulish to say the least ), a short while later shot Valerie with 4 or 5 bullets and then fired several more shots at her which all missed. Surely he couldn't have missed his target from point blank range which prompts the thought did he deliberately miss and if so why ? Also, if approximately 10 bullets were fired in total, the noise that must have generated would surely have alerted someone living nearby or even an approaching motorist. So many strange aspects to this gruesome crime.


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                            #360 Today, 02:58 PM
                            Steve
                            Inspector Join Date: May 2007
                            Location: Hampshire, England
                            Posts: 197




                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            Hello Jimarilyn

                            Only two shots were fired inside the car. The other shots were fired as the gunman was leaving the crime scene. Gregsten's body was beside the car having been dragged from the car.

                            I agree about the circumstances of the rape. It has always been one of the most puzzling factors about this crime that a rape could take place inside a Morris Minor with a recently shot victim only inches away.

                            The shots were fired at Miss Storie outside the car and not at point blank range. The gunman must have reloaded and Miss Storie did say that she had the impression that some of the shots went over her. Who knows whether or not the gunman deliberatly missed, but it would seem unlikely in view of the fact that he was certainly trying to kill her. Before driving off in the Morris Minor the gunman kicked Miss Storie to make sure he had killed her.

                            You are right about the noise, but it was in the early hours of the morning and the only nearby houses are about 250 metres away (275-ish yards in proper money) and one would presume the occupants to be fast asleep at that time. Deadman's Hill is pretty much out in the country in terms of housing and population, and there would have been little traffic on the A6 at that time of night, so it's not surprising the sound of gunfire went unnoticed.

                            Kind regards,
                            Steve
                            atb

                            larue

                            Comment

                            • #104
                              Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel
                              James Hanratty: Guilty ?
                              Welcome, larue.
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                              #361 Today, 04:25 PM
                              jimarilyn
                              Police Constable Join Date: Jun 2007
                              Location: Liverpool
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                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              Hi Steve,

                              I realise the shots were fired in the early hours of the morning, but it was at the height of the summer season when there is more likelihood of passing traffic ( however infrequent it may have been on that stretch of road ) and more likelihood of hot, sticky nights where sleep might be elusive. I just find it difficult to believe that nobody heard gun shots. The murderer was taking a big chance firing off all those rounds. Only twenty or so minutes earlier a car had come from the Luton direction whose headlights had lit up the murderer's face for a few seconds.

                              In today's post I received a copy of Louis Blom-Cooper's 1963 book " The A6 Murder: Regina v. James Hanratty, The semblance of Truth " and I'm amazed that no one has remarked about the uncanny and spooky resemblance between the photo of Peter Alphon (page 54) and the Identikit photo ( page 55 ) which was compiled from Edward Blackhall's description of the driver of the Morris Minor. I had never previously seen this photo of Peter Alphon.


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                              #362 Today, 04:41 PM
                              Steve
                              Inspector Join Date: May 2007
                              Location: Hampshire, England
                              Posts: 198




                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              Hi Jimarilyn

                              The murderer also took a big gamble when he drove away in Gregsten's Morris Minor. At that point he would have had no idea of how quickly the search for the car would have been started. He must have been very nervous driving that vehicle, especially bearing in mind the amount of blood in the car and the fact that he was still carrying the murder weapon. If he had been stopped by a policeman for speeding, for having a light out or for anything else he would have been in deep trouble. You would presume he would want to dump the car as quickly as possible, and that he would have taken considerable trouble to drive as normally as possible and to avoid being noticed.

                              The Identikit photo is, you are right, strikingly like Alphon. I commented in an earlier post that Alphon could quite easily have been convicted for the murder. The only thing that saved him was the fact that Valerie Storie failed to pick him out at an identity parade and picked out somebody else instead. Had that not happened there is a very strong possiblity that Hanratty would never have featured in the investigation.

                              Kind regards,
                              Steve


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                              #363 Today, 05:05 PM
                              Steve
                              Inspector Join Date: May 2007
                              Location: Hampshire, England
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                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              Hello again Jimarilyn

                              I've just been thinking about your 'hot sticky nights' point. The people in the cottages at the top of the hill might have had their windows open on late August night. I suppose that we don't know for sure if anyone reported gunshots to the police after the crime, it's a possibility they did.

                              Thinking back, however, to the 1960's, I clearly remember jumping up to look out of the window at gunshot noises and seeing an old banger going down the road backfiring. That doesn't happen today, cars backfiring, but back then it happened all the time. I suppose there is a possibility that someone hearing gunshots could have been woken up, assumed it was a car backfiring and gone back to sleep without bothering to look out of the window. There are no road lights on that stretch, the lay-by was not illuminated, and the Morris Minor had all of its lights turned off, so there would have been nothing to see anyway. At least, not until dawn - and then along came Sydney Burton.

                              Kind regards,
                              Steve


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                              #364 Today, 05:05 PM
                              jimarilyn
                              Police Constable Join Date: Jun 2007
                              Location: Liverpool
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                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              Hi again

                              Further to my earlier post, enclosed is a scanned copy of pages 54/55 of the Louis Blom-Cooper book. Judge for yourself.
                              Attached Images



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                              #365 Today, 05:09 PM
                              Steve
                              Inspector Join Date: May 2007
                              Location: Hampshire, England
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                              Peter Alphon Photograph

                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              The similiarity is uncanny!

                              It is even more so in later pictures of Alphon when he wore his hair differently.


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                              #366 Today, 07:45 PM
                              Steve
                              Inspector Join Date: May 2007
                              Location: Hampshire, England
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                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              Hi Jimarylin

                              Here are the same two identikit pictures taken this time from the back cover of Lord Russell of Liverpool's book Deadman's Hill Was Hanratty Guilty?


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                              #367 Today, 07:54 PM
                              Steve
                              Inspector Join Date: May 2007
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                              Identikit Pictures

                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              Try again ..... !
                              Attached Images



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                              #368 Today, 07:56 PM
                              Steve
                              Inspector Join Date: May 2007
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                              Peter Alphon Photograph

                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              And here is a photo of Alphon taken when he had altered his hairstyle.
                              Attached Images



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                              #369 Today, 08:07 PM
                              Steve
                              Inspector Join Date: May 2007
                              Location: Hampshire, England
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                              Identification Witnesses

                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              Hi Jimarilyn

                              Here is an interesting photo of three key prosectution witnesses. They all gave testimony regarding Hanratty being seen driving the Morris Minor a few hours after the murder. The one in the middle is James Trower who the police relied on for a positive identification of Hanratty.

                              I know that appearances can be deceptive, but by the look of him I wouldn't rely on him to identify his own mother in a monastry!

                              Kind regards,
                              Steve
                              Attached Images
                              atb

                              larue

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                              • #105
                                Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel
                                James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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                                #371 13th August 2007, 09:12 PM
                                Steve
                                Inspector Join Date: May 2007
                                Location: Hampshire, England
                                Posts: 245




                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Hi Larue

                                In the midst of a sleeping community in the middle of the night, next to a main road with traffic moving and possibly cars backfiring it's not surprising that the gunshots went unnoticed.

                                Do you think that the gunman had chosen his location beforehand, or do you think it was just an accident that they ended up in the lay-by at Deadman's Hill?

                                Enjoy the book. I certainly enjoyed reading it. It is written from a perspective of the time, shortly after the events had unfolded, and is all the more enjoyable knowing its historical context. The books written later, Bob Woffenden's in particular, bring more detail and background information to the story.

                                All of the books written on this subject leave a lot of unanswered questions.

                                Kind regards
                                Steve


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                                #372 14th August 2007, 09:22 AM
                                larue
                                Sergeant Join Date: Apr 2007
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                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Quote:
                                Originally Posted by Steve
                                Do you think that the gunman had chosen his location beforehand, or do you think it was just an accident that they ended up in the lay-by at Deadman's Hill?
                                Kind regards
                                Steve



                                hi Steve

                                this is a very good question. the answer could be extremely significant. it depends wether the gunman knew the area...

                                quote from Leonard Miller's book

                                "It was Saturday 23 September - precisely one month after the A6 murder. It was
                                the day that all the newspapers had headlines about a man in custody for the crime - a
                                man who was helping the police with their enquiries. And what did James Hanratty do
                                on this most significant of days? He drove his car to Gladys Deacon's house in
                                Stanmore, It was a surprise visit: she wasn't expecting him, And then what? In
                                Woffinden' s words: "He took Gladys for a drive in the country. They headed north to
                                Bedford, an area he knew reasonably well." (BW, 135)
                                At that my jaw, metaphorically if not literally, dropped. Woffinden seemed
                                blithely unaware of the implications of this sensational revelation. What it seemed to
                                indicate was that James Hanratty drove up the A6. Why would someone who had nothing at all
                                to do with the crime choose to do such a thing on such a stunningly significant date?"

                                this suggests that Hanratty, if he was the gunman, did indeed know the area. however, it would appear that the entire crime seems not to have been planned at all, but played by ear, and that by somebody who was no good at thinking on his feet. mind you, i think the last sentence in that quote is a bit silly, as i guess there were loads of people driving along the A6 on that day who had nothing at all to do with the crime...

                                the big problem with this case, is, in my opinion, the more one thinks about it and studies it, the more questions are raised, and the more difficult it becomes to get those questions answered.
                                regarding the books... [ at risk of drifting a little off topic ]
                                i have up till now, been ordering books from my local library, who have not failed me yet. if a book comes from local storage, there is a 50p search fee. if the book comes from storage outside the county, then the search fee is £2.00 i have just purchased a copy of Keith Simpson's bio, in first class condition for 50p, [ yeah! 50p!!! i could hardly believe it either!] after being told by the library that this book is very rare and practically irreplaceable, and copies of Louis Blom-Cooper and Lord Russell of Liverpools books for less than £2.00 each via Abebooks. what bargains. what the heck. i'll give 'em a namecheck...

                                Throckmorton's Bookshop [ the K Simpson bio ]
                                16 Market Place
                                Atherstone, UK
                                United Kingdom, CV9 1EX

                                Zardoz Books [ Blom-Cooper, Lord R of L ]
                                20 Whitecroft
                                Dilton Marsh
                                Westbury, WIL
                                United Kingdom, BA13 4DJ

                                atb

                                larue


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                                #373 14th August 2007, 05:48 PM
                                Steve
                                Inspector Join Date: May 2007
                                Location: Hampshire, England
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                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Hello Larue

                                It would seem from the passages you have quoted that Hanratty did know the area and was familiar with Bedford and the road that one took to get there from London, the A6. It would also seem that he had visited Bedford ‘on business’ on previous occasions. Yes, this is another pointer towards Hanratty’s guilt. Interestingly, though, on the journey in the Morris Minor the gunman had suggested stopping at places before they reached the lay-by. It was Valerie who insisted that these places were unsuitable, so the lay-by was not the gunman’s first choice of a place to park up.

                                Professor Keith Simpson’s book Forty Years of Murder is a sound investment at that price. It is a fascinating read. My hardback copy cost me £6.95 when it was first published in 1978 and I remember exactly the first time I read it. It was on a plane to Sicily as my wife and myself were going on holiday. It’s been read several times since then but is still in perfect condition. Unlike my paperback copy of Bob Woffinden’s Hanratty the Final Verdict which looks as though it might fall apart at any time.

                                Kind regards,
                                Steve


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                                #374 14th August 2007, 08:20 PM
                                Graham
                                Superintendent Join Date: Jul 2006
                                Location: West Midlands
                                Posts: 1,532




                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Evenin' all.

                                I've been away for a few days so not up to speed with this fascinating thread (dare I suggest the best non-Ripper thread on this website?). So just a couple of observations:

                                1] traffic, especially at night, in 1961, was of so low a density that anyone who wasn't there can hardly imagine it. Although I obviously don't know for sure, it's a fair bet that the number of vehicles that passed the lay-by whilst the Morris was parked there could probably be counted on the fingers of two hands. I'd expect that traffic picked up say around 5.00 am as workers made their way to the early shift, especially at the car-plants in Luton.

                                2] a summer night, a rural environment, there'd probably be the odd gun-shot going off all night as 'countrymen' (for want of a better description) went about their age-old routine of finding something for the pot, keeping the fox population down, etc. Even in 2007, where I live in the West Midlands, we hear the odd shot-gun going off at all hours and take no notice.

                                3] Prior to John Kerr taking over the traffic-census at 6.00 pm, another student (?) called John Smith and another man called Michael Black worked the 10.00pm - 6.00am 'shift' and he heard and saw absolutely nothing according to his testimony, and he couldn't have been much more than a couple of hundred yards away. He said (ref: Woffinden) that he 'saw so little traffic between 2.00am and 4.00am [ref: 1 above] that he spent his time reading' (must have good eyes or a good light) but did say that he 'heard a car drive away going southward at a good speed'. He even said he thought it was a Morris Minor, and I'd guess that by 4.00am there was sufficient light to make that recognition. This, to me, is one of the most puzzling aspects of the case - how the murder car could have remained at the lay-by for as long as it did without these two gents noticing it.

                                4] the apparent erratic driving of the murder car away from the scene (crunching gears, etc) could have been the result of trauma on the part of Hanratty - I'd say that even he must have been affected by the enormity of what he had done.

                                5] Leonard Miller most definitely proposes that Hanratty knew the area around Bedford, which would appear to be vindicated by the fact that Hanratty took Gladys up there on a joy-ride a month after the murder.
                                Either he had nerves of steel, or he'd somehow managed to force down into his sub-conscious what he'd done at the A6 lay-by. A job for a psychologist to comment upon, I think.

                                It is truly bizarre how Hanratty seemed to be living on his luck for so long immediately after the murder. To be honest, had I been in his position, I'd have left the car where it was and legged it either towards Bedford (only about 7 miles away) or Luton, and dumped the gun en route. What on earth motivated him to drive the blood-stained (and eventually-damaged) car all the way back to London defeats me. For years I've thought that, had he managed to reach a station, he could have got on a train to almost anywhere, and the chances of his being linked with the murder and rape would have diminished enormously. He had plenty of time - the alarum wasn't raised until gone 6.00am.

                                Weirder and ever weirder.

                                Cheers,

                                Graham

                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                Last edited by Graham : 14th August 2007 at 08:29 PM.


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                                #375 14th August 2007, 09:57 PM
                                Steve
                                Inspector Join Date: May 2007
                                Location: Hampshire, England
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                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Evenin’ Graham

                                Welcome back, after your sojourn, to this most fascinating thread.

                                Your comments are as usual quite incisive. Are you sure it wasn’t you in the back seat of the Morris Minor? Please post a photo of yourself for us to compare against the identikit pictures.

                                All joking aside, the Morris Minor part of this case after the murder is the most chilling part of the whole episode. Rape in a car with a dead body a few inches away? (Could the gunman have been 100% certain his victim was dead?) Most of us feel eerie near a graveyard or anywhere near a deceased person, but what happened in the confines of a Morris Minor truly beggars belief.

                                And driving the car away complete with its myriad of clues and convicting evidence just does not seem realistic. And why dump the car near Ilford in East London when it would have been much quicker and far more straightforward to retrace the outgoing part of the journey by going back down the A6 and leaving the car at Watford or Hendon? And less dangerous!

                                Do you have any thoughts why the lay-by was chosen as a place to end the journey? Or why Valerie found the other places unsuitable?

                                Mind As You Go
                                Dixon


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                                #376 14th August 2007, 10:13 PM
                                Graham
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                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Hi Steve.

                                Your comments noted!

                                Nah, wasn't me in the back-seat of the Morris, but I did once own a Minor, and let me tell you here and now that congress in such a confined space was, shall we say, not straightforward!

                                I think that this aspect of the crime is what truly and genuinely chilled the public back in 1961 - unbelievable enough to shoot a man in cold blood and for no perceptible reason, but to rape and then attempt to kill his lover? Even in these times, when violence is almost a social acceptance, such an act would be marked down as depraved. This is why, in my opinion, Hanratty was convicted against all the odds - the jury was sickened by the nature of the crime, there was a likely lad in the dock and - well, maybe they did what was expected of them.

                                Regarding your last paragraph, I really don't know. I can only suggest that Hanratty meant all the time to end the nightmare at the lay-by, and he was playing sick games with Valerie and MG.

                                Here's another oddity - it's always seemed to me that Valerie and MG did have an opportunity to escape, when Hanratty ordered them to pull into the garage for fuel. I wasn't in the car, obviously, so can't speak from knowledge, but had they scarpered out of the car as fast as their legs could carry them, would Hanratty have opened up with a fusilade of shots in front of at least one witness, viz. the man who came out to serve them?

                                Cheers,

                                Graham

                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                Last edited by Graham : 14th August 2007 at 10:17 PM.


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                                #377 15th August 2007, 09:35 AM
                                granger
                                Inspector Join Date: Jan 2006
                                Location: Somerset, UK
                                Posts: 259




                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                There has recently been a posting (which I cannot find) suggesting that the often used photograph of James Hanratty could well be that of the Madame Tussards' wax effigy. They have kindly sent me a copy, and as you can see it is not! The effigy is no longer on display.

                                I apologise if the photograph may be a little large, but I have no idea how to reduce. If someone can do this for me, I would forward the original email. Contact me by PM with their e-mail address. (Maybe large pic is better, as it is very detailed, although a bit dark though, but again maybe one of you whizz kids could edit!)).

                                Please note: On first sighting, because of the wording, you may think the image is reversed. However, further examination willl reveal that the wording is repeated the right way about!

                                As previously stated this photograh was kindly supplied by Madame Tussards.
                                Attached Images


                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                Last edited by granger : 15th August 2007 at 09:58 AM.


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                                #378 15th August 2007, 11:10 AM
                                jimarilyn
                                Police Constable Join Date: Jun 2007
                                Location: Liverpool
                                Posts: 17




                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Quote:
                                Originally Posted by Steve
                                Hi Jimarilyn

                                Here is an interesting photo of three key prosectution witnesses. They all gave testimony regarding Hanratty being seen driving the Morris Minor a few hours after the murder. The one in the middle is James Trower who the police relied on for a positive identification of Hanratty.

                                I know that appearances can be deceptive, but by the look of him I wouldn't rely on him to identify his own mother in a monastry!

                                Kind regards,
                                Steve


                                Hi Steve,

                                I've seen this same photograph and thought the very same thing. He looks rather ghostly and scary.


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                                #379 15th August 2007, 01:15 PM
                                jimarilyn
                                Police Constable Join Date: Jun 2007
                                Location: Liverpool
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                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Hi

                                I've tried resizing pages 54 and 55 from Louis Blom-Cooper's book so that they don't cover the whole page. As previously mentioned the resemblance between the Peter Alphon photo and the Identikit photo compiled by Edward Blackhall (of the driver of the Morris Minor) is truly uncanny and spooky.
                                Attached Images



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                                #380 15th August 2007, 01:20 PM
                                jimarilyn
                                Police Constable Join Date: Jun 2007
                                Location: Liverpool
                                Posts: 17




                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Hi again,

                                Sorry about that. I did reduce the photo size, but it's made no difference as the page seems as wide as ever. Puzzled as to why.
                                atb

                                larue

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