a6 murder

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James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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#61 27th April 2007, 11:36 PM
halomanuk
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I live in Flitwick,just down the road from the area and have driven passed the layby..for a main 'A' road it is a heavily wooded and isolated place and people go mad speeding there even though it is only 2 lanes..we try and avoid it..ive been so wrapped up in JTR i didnt even know this thread existed !!
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#62 28th April 2007, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrsperfect
I wonder what sort of family he came from Graham, to have a charge sheet as long as your arm? Perhaps it was his family that taught him his craft?

Only asking!

Regards,

Eileen


Hi Eileen.

Actually, according to all reports, he came from a close family, but being not too intelligent and doubtless very impressionable he fell into bad habits, as used to be said. He most certainly suffered from some kind of personality defect, but he was considered same enough to hang! He mixed with criminals and minor underworld types, preferring to make a living by theft, burglary, etc., rather than a legit job. He was always a petty crook, and I think he rather expected to be caught occasionally. Why he should suddenly turn to murder remains a mystery.

The only thing I'd add is that IMHO the books by Paul Foot and Bob Woffinden did make him out to be some kind of wronged innocent, a really nice bloke who had a murder-rap pinned on him. I don't think that was the case at all.

Cheers,

Graham


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#63 28th April 2007, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halomanuk
I live in Flitwick,just down the road from the area and have driven passed the layby..for a main 'A' road it is a heavily wooded and isolated place and people go mad speeding there even though it is only 2 lanes..we try and avoid it..ive been so wrapped up in JTR i didnt even know this thread existed !!


Hiya BT.

The lay-by has been altered quite considerably since the A6 Murder - it's far more wooded than it was and I think it's also been widened. I would guess that in 1961 it would have been an even more isolated place than it is today, with far fewer cars using the road. I'm a bit surprised that no memorial of any kind has ever been set up there.

Cheers,

Graham


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#64 28th April 2007, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
...I'm a bit surprised that no memorial of any kind has ever been set up there.



Can you imagine a world with plaques up for every time a murder was committed ? I'm not sure it wouldn't be counterproductive in labelling us all the madmen (and women) we really are.


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#65 28th April 2007, 05:44 PM
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Hi,
I too have a fascination with this murder, it however is strange that a petty car thief such as Hanratty should ask Valarie Storie how to change the gears on a Morris minior a very popular car of that period.
Why did he not simply order the couple out of the car and drive off if he simply needed a lift.
That is of course if he could drive?.
Hanratty certainly did.
The whole episode that was reported to have occured that night sounds extremely odd.
The statement refering to the killers plans to tie them both up, whilst he slept seems odd.
Would you take the chance of going into a deep sleep gun in hand with two frightened people in front who may have found a way of releasing there bonds, and then grapping the gun from your grasp and reversing the roles.
Richard.


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#66 28th April 2007, 10:38 PM
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Evening Richard.

One rather problemmatical aspect of the Hanratty Case is that from the moment Gregsten and Storey were abducted from the cornfield at Dorney Reach, to the moment that Storey was discovered in the lay-by at Deadman's Hill, is that we only have Storey's statement as to what happened in between. She stated that whoever shot her and Gregsten needed some kind of tuition regarding how to drive the Morris Minor. For years, this apparent lack of driving skill was taken as proof-positive that the gunman wasn't Hanratty, because he, Hanratty, was an accomplished car-thief. Yet, as Leonard Miller points out, there really is no proof at all that Hanratty knew much about cars or how to drive them. For example, he had an accident in Ireland in the car he hired when he was on the run; also, his own car, a Sunbeam, had accidental damage to its bodywork and its gear-box was faulty; his own cousin, to whom he gave a ride in the Sunbeam, said that he drove very erratically. Car-theft was never his forte: he preferred burglary. I have always had some difficulty about Hanratty's saying that he was 'going to have a kip' in the back of the Morris, for precisely the reason you cite. However, the jury obviously believed Valerie Storey, and I for one would never for one moment question the veracity of her statement.

It could be that, gun in hand, he felt himself to be a 'big man', able to order other people about, and to do what he wanted them to do. Yet, and I am not the first to ask the simple question: did he know that Gregsten and Storey would be in the cornfield that night? If he did, then that opens up a whole new line of inquiry. But again, Valerie Storey has never, ever, wavered from her conviction that it was James Hanratty who abducted her and her lover. I believe her, because there is no reason not to.

It is very unlikely, after 46 years, that the real 'truth' about the Hanratty Case will ever be known, but the DNA proves that it was Hanratty who raped Valerie Storey, and therefore it is odds on that he is also the man who murdered Gregsten. It is also significant that, since the DNA results were made public, there has been very little heard in support of James Hanratty.

Cheers,

Graham


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#67 29th April 2007, 12:06 AM
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Hi Graham,
yes it has been changed big time but still you can see the isolation involved even though 'The Flying Horse' inn is just down the road off a roundabout nearby..because the cars (and boy racers now !!) go so fast down there it was and is a case of something happening to someone in the lay-by but the other car drivers are so involved in bombing along past it that nobody actually sees anything..it was a very unfortunate spot to be stopped at..so near so much civilization with the cars and inn/restaraunt nearby but in a way that nobody could probably see the lay-by...
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#68 29th April 2007, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halomanuk
Hi Graham,
yes it has been changed big time but still you can see the isolation involved even though 'The Flying Horse' inn is just down the road off a roundabout nearby..because the cars (and boy racers now !!) go so fast down there it was and is a case of something happening to someone in the lay-by but the other car drivers are so involved in bombing along past it that nobody actually sees anything..it was a very unfortunate spot to be stopped at..so near so much civilization with the cars and inn/restaraunt nearby but in a way that nobody could probably see the lay-by...


Hi BT

Leonard Miller wondered if Hanratty had previously selected that particular spot for its remoteness and isolation. Apparently, Hanratty had relatives in Bedford whom he visited, so it's possible that he might have spotted the lay-by, which then as now was screened from the road by greenery.

Cheers,

Graham


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#69 29th April 2007, 01:35 PM
larue
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re Hanratty

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hi All

have read with great interest the posts in this thread. take a look at this link. there are some very interesting comments, especially about the dna tests.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon...dertrans.shtml

regards

larue



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#70 29th April 2007, 04:42 PM
larue
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very interesting

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hi all

have just been reading from the document at

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/j...6/HANRATTY.htm

as posted by Chris Phillips on 230706.

checkout paragraphs 106 and 113. i'd be interested in comparing interpretations...

regards

larue

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James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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#71 29th April 2007, 10:09 PM
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no doubt about it..it is almost on a bend in the duel carriage-way as well Graham and lighting at that time was very scarce ..so a place that is amazingly close to the resaurant/inn and on a duel carriage way but to be honest unless a very very slow moving vehicle was going passed it would be just another car in another parking spot..
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#72 29th April 2007, 10:22 PM
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Evening BT.

I have driven both up and down Deadman's Hill dozens of times over the years, but when about 10 years ago I decided to locate the exact spot, it was more difficult than I expected. There is another 'kind of' lay-by lower down the hill, but obviously that didn't fit. I think that the lay-by wasn't originally a lay-by at all, but the entrance into the adjacent woodland estate.
A service-road sort of thing.

These days there's a mobile cafe there, and it's a favourite stop for lorry-drivers.

I rather agree with Leonard Miller that James Hanratty already knew this spot before he took Gregsten and Storey there.

Incidentally, the entrance to the cornfield at Dorney Reach is now the entrance to what appears to be some kind of electricity sub-station.

Leonard Miller also made the erudite comment that the Hanratty Case was the first high-profile murder-case in which a car strongly featured, at least in the UK.

Cheers,

Graham


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#73 29th April 2007, 10:35 PM
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Hi Graham,good to hear from you as always,
the whole road has always had an 'i dont like this' factor..the woods being on both sides as well make it a great spot for an obvious but concealed attempt on someone.
Also,lets be honest..the area itself is not exactly surrounded by society in any direction immediately,Clophill is not even on the main road towards Flitwick,it is away from the road behind a fishing spot etc..only a garden center is actually ON the road !!
Im sorry but if it was not premeditated (and he did know the area as i do) then boy,he should have done the pools more and definately he would have hit the jackpot ..
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#74 29th April 2007, 10:35 PM
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Hi BT.

All the circumstantial evidence points to the A6 case as being premeditated. Yet the hard evidence doesn't. IMHO it stretches credulity to accept that Hanratty just 'happened' upon Gregsten and Storey as they sat in their car at Dorney Reach. Yet without any hard evidence otherwise, then we have to accept that that is what happened. A man with a gun just kind of happening to be in a rather remote area, coming across a pair of lovers in a car in a field?
Hard to accept. But if you don't accept it, then you are opening the door to all kinds of crazy conspiracy theories which, at one time, were very seriously put forward. Personally, I think that there is much more to this case than meets the casual eye, but the chances of discovering the true facts are, now, extremely slim. There can be no doubt that James Hanratty was the killer - but the question remains: WHY?

I'd be more than happy to lend you my books on the Hanratty Case, if you've never read them. Please PM me if you'd like to take me up on this offer.

The whole damn thing is a mystery wrapped up in an enigma, as it were.

As an aside, about 3 years ago I wrote to Bob Woffinden and Leonard Miller, c/o their publishers, and also to Bedfordshire Constabulary, as to what happened to the famous grey Morris Minor car. I didn't receive a reply from any of them.

Cheers,

Graham

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Last edited by Graham : 29th April 2007 at 10:49 PM.


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#75 29th April 2007, 10:44 PM
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mmmmmm we are trying now not to be 'The Least Known County in the South of England' according to our local Sunday paper last week....community minded and helpful ..enough said ??!!
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#76 29th April 2007, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halomanuk
mmmmmm we are trying now not to be 'The Least Known County in the South of England' according to our local Sunday paper last week....community minded and helpful ..enough said ??!!


Hi BT.

My late father was born in Bedford, in a street which I think is now under Bedford's bus-station. Not too far from Bedford Prison, as it happens. What his mother was doing in Bedford at the time, no-one in my family has been able to discover....she came from Hampshire and his dad came from Hertfordshire.

I know the area around Cranfield pretty well.

Cheers,

Graham


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#77 29th April 2007, 11:14 PM
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To be honest its not bad...the occasional murder apart...!!
No,we are happy here and Beds is a good place to be Graham,your mum and dad did good bless them..
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#78 30th April 2007, 07:40 AM
larue
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another mystery

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my last 2 posts seem to have gone awol. has anybody seen them?


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#79 30th April 2007, 09:11 AM
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two paragraphs from

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/j...6/HANRATTY.htm

106. We turn to the DNA evidence.
As already noted seminal fluid was found on Valerie Storie's knickers and one of her slips.
At the time all that could be shown was that the rapist's and hence the murderer's blood group was O secretor.
So was James Hanratty's and Peter Alphon's together with 40% of the male population.
The handkerchief found with the murder weapon bore traces of nasal mucus.
Mucus was not capable of being analysed for blood type.
Evidence based upon the comparison of hairs and fibres was inconclusive.
Apart from some seminal staining on James Hanratty's striped trousers, said to be part of the Hepworth suit,
that was the extent of the scientific evidence at trial.

113. The knickers arrived at the Metropolitan Police Laboratory (MPL) on 23 August 1961
where they were examined by Dr Nickolls, the director and his assistant, Henry Howard.
They were found to be stained with seminal fluid in the area of the crotch and at the back for five
inches upwards from the crotch.
Vaginal fluid from Valerie Storie was also present.
There were smaller quantities of seminal fluid of blood group AB assumed to have come at some earlier
stage from Michael Gregsten. Although the laboratory records are not dated, the notes are numbered
sequentially and we are confident that the knickers were examined almost immediately and in any event
no later than 23 September 1961 when the notes show that certain samples taken from Peter Alphon were
examined at the laboratory. The handkerchief came to the laboratory on 25 August, was screened for blood
and semen and, none being found, seems to have been put to one side.
from wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hanratty

In 1991 Bedfordshire Police allowed Bob Woffinden access to their previously undisclosed files on the case. The CCRC report had also revealed the mileage on the Morris Minor which invalidated Skillet's sighting in Brentwood </wiki/Brentwood%2C_Essex> and Trower's in Redbridge Lane. Bob Woffinden writes that there is no evidence that they even saw the same Morris Minor. These anomalies were considered sufficiently significant to justify an appeal against the conviction on behalf of Hanratty's family.
The surviving exhibits from the trial were lost until 1991, when they were found in envelopes in a laboratory drawer. DNA was donated by Hanratty's relatives, which they expected to exonerate him when compared with material on surviving evidence. Results from testing in June 1999 were said to be equivocal.
Hanratty's body was exhumed in 2001 </wiki/2001> in order to extract DNA.[3] This was compared with mucus </wiki/Mucus> preserved in the handkerchief within which the murder weapon had been found wrapped. It was also compared with semen </wiki/Semen> preserved in the panties worn by Storie when she was raped. No forensic evidence from the crime had previously been linked to Hanratty, yet DNA samples from both sources matched Hanratty's DNA. At the subsequent appeal hearing Michael Mansfield QC </wiki/Michael_Mansfield_QC>, the barrister acting for the Hanratty family, admitted that if contamination can be excluded then the DNA evidence demonstrated that Hanratty committed the murder and rape. He went on to claim that the evidence may have been contaminated because of lax handling procedures. Amongst the surviving evidence a vial had been broken which could account for contamination. However, neither sample yielded DNA from any second male source, as would presumably have been expected if another male had committed the crimes and the samples had subsequently been contaminated.
The argument for contamination was dismissed as "fanciful" by the judges, who concluded that the "DNA evidence, standing alone, is certain proof of guilt".[4]
Hanratty's family and their supporters have continued to contest this conclusion.



the wikipedia account appears to be incorrect, as is the dna findings, as they are contradicted by the metropolitan police laboratory report of two semen types being found on the knickers.
how come, the 2001 dna analysis only found one semen type?-answer, only a small fragment of knickers was used for the test, the second stain not being present on the sample. very convenient for the prosecution. so that begs the question, if the 2001 dna test completely missed the second semen stain, of what value and reliability is it?


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#80 30th April 2007, 12:00 PM
larue
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reading the transcript of the appeal, it appears that the Metropolitan Police Laboratory found two semen stains on the knickers. one from blood type O secretor, which includes Hanratty, Alpon and 40% of the male population, and and another, from blood type AB, which was 'assumed' to come from Michael Gregsten. the second DNA test, was only able to be carried out on the small fragment of the knickers which remains, the rest of the garment having been destroyed. not suprising then, that no other male dna was found, even though the police lab stated there was two semen samples. the transcript also aknowledges the possibility of contamination, albeit small.

imho, this makes the dna test invalid, as the whole garment was not available for analysis...

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#81 1st May 2007, 12:24 PM
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Hi Larue.

I know next to nothing about forensics, but I was always under the impression that the DNA test of the 'fragment' of underwear showed that the DNA of only one male was present on the fabric, and that this DNA matched that of James Hanratty per the sample taken from his teeth after exhumation. I also understand that the forensic lab used what was then a fairly new technique to artificially reproduce the DNA under test, which greatly increases the accuracy of the analysis. There's a name for this technique, which I forget just now.

Even if the original MePo forensic tests on the 'whole' underwear showed that it contained traces of semen from 2 males, I don't see that as being conclusive one way or the other, but the obvious assumption is that one stain was Gregsten's, and the other was Hanratty's. But only an assumption.

There was also a positive DNA test made of the handkerchief in which the gun was wrapped before depositing it under the back seat of the 39A bus; this test showed that the handkerchief was unquestionably James Hanratty's.

The forensic exhibits, after the trial, were lost until 1991, when they were found contained in seperate (or so I understand) envelopes in a laboratory drawer. Not a guarantee, of course, that cross-contamination could not have occurred, but reasonably unlikely, I think.

Also, bear in mind that because the charge of rape against Hanratty was dropped, the underwear was no longer an exhibit at his trial and presumably was never directly handled by anyone in court.

There is no doubt in my mind that the DNA tests on both the fragment of underwear and the handkerchief were and remain valid, and that James Hanratty was guilty.

As I always say when writing about this case, it was and is fascinating.

Cheers,

Graham


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#82 1st May 2007, 09:18 PM
larue
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Hi Graham

some very well made points there, and yes, at the end of the day the dna evidence is hard not to say impossible to refute. i need to read up some on this case.

learning about the two semen stains caused me to wonder what effect would the finding of the second stain have had on the dna analysis result? an exhumation of Gregsten's remains maybe? who knows? after all, it was known to have been present. shame the sample of underwear did not contain both.
after all the time and money that has been spent on this case over the years, i expect that the failed appeal marks the final end of any official actions, and just leaves us to ponder the imponderables. oh, if only i had a time machine...

regards

larue


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#83 2nd May 2007, 12:12 PM
mayerling
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Compromise for Jimmy?

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Hi all,

Although I tend to think Stan's point of view ("Don't move the goalpost" regarding the so-called valid criticism of DNA testing here) is correct, I feel
that perhaps Hanratty has to be seen in context and also handled as such.

Between 1945 and 1962 Britain had more than it's fair share of "questionable" death sentence - execution cases. More or less they begin with Walter
Rowland, go to Timothy Evans, through Derek Bently and Ruth Ellis, touch upon - with some doubt - Gunther Podola, and end with James Hanratty.
These were seized upon, with some point, by anti-death penalty supporters
as proof that the penalty should be dropped. They, of course, ignored such
choice specimens as Haigh, Heath, Christie, Mrs. Christofy, Peter Manuel, who certainly did not deserve massive amounts of public sympathy for their
criminal actions. Also, once these people got their way on the death penalty
they ignored such charming examples of people to save with prison sentences as Brady and Hindley (ah, good old Lord Longford...how much we owe to him!), the Krays, Dr. Shipman. At least Shipman did us all one
unexpected final favor.

Yet as I say this I realize that it is wrong to execute anyone who is conceivably innocent or very sympathetic (Ms Ellis). Still, I find it
curious that after Timothy Evans was posthumously rehabilitated by the British Justice System, up stepped Mr. Hume with his amusing information
that Evans actually did confess to him that he killed his wife. The source
is questionable, but Hume had nothing to gain by mentioning it just then - possibly to show what an ass the pardoning act was, just for a laugh.

I support the idea that given the defects of evidence gathering by the police, and of seeking out alternative suspects, one might make the case
that James Hanratty was not given a totally fair chance in his trial. On
that basis I still feel that an act like the posthumous rehabilitation of
Evans could be given. I doubt that such a movement will be picked up.

Best wishes,

Jeff


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#84 2nd May 2007, 03:30 PM
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Hi Jeff.

Good to hear from you on this thread.

Your points are all valid ones, and if I read your first remark correctly I agree that the Hanratty Case in terms of his guilt is now closed, but there are so many mysteries and unanswered questions concerning it that I'm still hooked.
I believe (and I think that his defence counsel would probably agree) that the big mistake was Hanratty's going onto the witness-stand. Far from being the little tongue-tied innocent Paul Foot made him out to be, it would appear that more reliable observers described him as totally arrogant, cold and defiant. OK, I don't know how I would peform if I was up on a murder-rap, but I think it's generally agreed that Hanratty's demeanour did himself no favours. There was a very good chance that, had he not taken the stand, he'd have got off (!) with life in gaol, as the judge's summing-up was certainly not unfavourable; there was also a strong whiff of police-corruption and withholding of evidence. Anyway, we'll never know.

Of the other cases you mention, there will I think always be a question-mark about Timothy Evans, but from what I've read over the years the consensus seems to be that he was guilty. Ruth Ellis never lifted a finger in her own defence, and was apparently perfectly willing to take the consequences. Had she been living in France, she wouldn't have been executed as it was a crime passionel. Podola murdered a copper, so there was no hope for him whatsoever.

The Hanratty Case was certainly high on the list of cases cited by the abolitionists, no doubt about that, as was Derek Bentley and Evans. A few US cases were also cited, notably Caryl Chessman.

Strangely enough, for a country populated entirely by philosophers and with a history of reluctance in applying the death penalty, the last execution in France was in 1979 - I think the last European country to abolish capital punishment, unless I'm mistaken.

Finally, as someone once said, nobody on death row is guilty....

Cheers,

Graham


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#85 2nd May 2007, 04:42 PM
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Hi Jeff and Graham;

I remember the Chessman case. My eighth grade teacher was a kind of activist in its regard. The main issue there was not so much possible innocence but that he had not in fact committed murder. He was executed for kidnapping and even that was under a "funny" definition. Of the cases mentioned, I don't think he, Evans or Bentley should have been executed; the rest, I have no problem with.

Stan
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#86 2nd May 2007, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreid
Hi Jeff and Graham;

I remember the Chessman case. My eighth grade teacher was a kind of activist in its regard. The main issue there was not so much possible innocence but that he had not in fact committed murder. He was executed for kidnapping and even that was under a "funny" definition. Of the cases mentioned, I don't think he, Evans or Bentley should have been executed; the rest, I have no problem with.

Stan


Hi Stan.

Chessman was accused of being the 'Red Light Bandit', so-called because whoever it was had a red light on his car presumably so his victims thought they were being pulled over by a police-car. This character operated in the Hollywood/Pasadena area and was a hold-up man and rapist. Chessman was probably not the kind of guy you'd want living next to you, but he came from a poor family and had suffered various illnesses from an early age. He looked the part, too, with his broken nose and tough looks. He was also the victim of what was almost certainly mistaken identity. What really did for him was that the 'Red Light Bandit' held a female victim prisoner in his car - for two whole hours! - and apparently, at least in California, kidnapping as a capital offence under a statute that was known as the 'Little Lindbergh' law.

At any rate, he was put on trial for his life and conducted his own defence! It didn't go down too well. Then the court stenographer dropped dead, and Chessman demanded a re-trial, but he was sentenced to death. The reason for his fame was both his determination to fight his conviction, and also for the length of time (nearly 12 years) he spent on death row. He was executed on 2 May 1960 (47 years ago to the day, as it happens). His case was later investigated by independent researchers who concluded that, although he may have robbed people, he raped and kidnapped no-one, and the real culprit was named as Charlie Terranova, who knew Chessman.

Thanks to his own efforts, Chessman's case became a cause celebre, and the British Commission into capital punishment cited him not only for the fact that he had murdered no-one, but also for the length of time he spent on death row and the overall weakness of his conviction. He should certainly not have been executed.

Cheers,

Graham

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#87 2nd May 2007, 09:13 PM
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Hi Graham,

Off topic some but, yes, Chessman was an oddity at the time because of his years on death row. Today, 12 years would be a "rush to judgment". He was also famous for his book writing and he did come off as a surprisingly articulate man in interviews.

We had a similar local case at about the same time regarding a convicted child rapist/killer named Lloyd Miller. I think he eventually spent more time on death row than Chessman but was finally freed when "blood" on his boxer shorts turned out to be paint. Miller was a cab driver and he put himself in the frame by leaving town right after the child's body was found on some railroad tracks. The little girl was about 5 and her family still thought he was guilty. Her grandfather said he'd kill Miller if he was ever released but he must have had second thoughts or just didn't get the chance. Miller also wrote a book about his experience but I don't know if he ever found a publisher. As far as I know, he's still living and the case is officially unsolved.

Stan
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#88 2nd May 2007, 09:30 PM
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Hi Stan.

I think what really appalls people on this side of the pond, apropos capital punishment in the USA, is the extended time most condemned killers appear to spend banged up in a tiny cell prior to their inevitable appointment. One of the arguments against the continuation of capital punishment in the UK was based precisely upon this element: who wins, other than the lawyers?

Maybe the Chinese have got it right. I believe that there an appeal against a death sentence (or even any kind of sentence) is considered to be a treasonable act, and that a condemned person is these days executed within one hour of sentence being passed. The modern Chinese method is a van containing the necessary equipment for lethal injection. Not enough time to **** your pants.

Cheers,

Graham


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#89 2nd May 2007, 09:40 PM
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Hi Graham,

Yes, I think one year should be long enough to settle all appeals. At that point, if there's serious doubt, the sentence goes to life otherwise the person gets it. We have people on death row now that have been there nearly 30 years.

Stan
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#90 2nd May 2007, 09:43 PM
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Stan,

I should have added that under ancient British law, which applied right up until the last application of the death penalty in this country, between sentencing and execution 'three clear Sundays' should pass. Hence, any appeal had to be lodged extremely bloody quickly, as was the case with Hanratty. Any such appeal was heard very quickly and, if it failed, the sentence was usually carried out within two weeks.

The charming French had a system by which an appeal against a death-sentence was automatic, but usually rather half-arsed. When (not if) it failed, the poor bloody condemned had not the faintest idea when he'd be sliced in two, until burly officers entered his cell with a glass of rum, and said, "Now is the time to be brave". Astonishingly, French executions were carried out in public (admittance by ticket, and I kid you not) until the German Occupation in 1940.

Cheers,

Graham

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#91 2nd May 2007, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreid
Hi Graham,

Yes, I think one year should be long enough to settle all appeals. At that point, if there's serious doubt, the sentence goes to life otherwise the person gets it. We have people on death row now that have been there nearly 30 years.

Stan


Stan,

Thirty years??!!?? So you're saying it's possible to spend the best part of your life in gaol, and still get executed? No wonder Amnesty International has its claws well into the US legal system. That is totally barbaric!

Cheers,

Graham


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#92 2nd May 2007, 09:54 PM
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Hi Graham,

Yes, I remember seeing the film of Wiedmann losing his head. A few years back, a measure was introduced into the Louisiana legislature to bring guillotine executions back to that state.

The Russians also practiced the "surprise" execution. It would have been terribly unnerving every time you heard the cell being unlocked but I guess that was the idea.

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#93 2nd May 2007, 09:57 PM
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P.S.

Regarding the 30 years, if the prisoner doesn't like it, he can always drop the appeals and some have.

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#94 2nd May 2007, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreid
Hi Graham,

Yes, I remember seeing the film of Wiedmann losing his head. A few years back, a measure was introduced into the Louisiana legislature to bring guillotine executions back to that state.

The Russians also practiced the "surprise" execution. It would have been terribly unnerving every time you heard the cell being unlocked but I guess that was the idea.

Stan


Hi Stan.

Is that serious, about Louisiana and the guillotine?

Cheers,

Graham


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#95 2nd May 2007, 10:07 PM
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P.S.S.

One other claim I forgot to mention regarding Chessman was the issue of double jeopardy. That was raised because he'd been taken right up to within minutes of execution several times before a stay was declared and most of the punishment in a death sentence is the dread. In fact, there was a stay issued on the day he was executed but the cyanide had already been dropped when it came through just seconds short.

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#96 2nd May 2007, 10:10 PM
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Graham-the guillotine proposal was made. I don't know how seriously it was taken but I think the congressman who proposed it was serious.

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#97 2nd May 2007, 10:20 PM
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Hi Stan.

According to the piece I have about Chessman, a judge granted a last-minute stay but his secretary dialled the wrong number to advise the prison, by which time it was too late. Uggh!

There is a (supposedly) true story about executions in the Phillippines, where they used the electric chair for years until one time there was a boob and it caught fire. The legislation said they wanted a safer (!) method of execution, and decided upon the gas-chamber until someone mentioned that hydrogen cyanide gas is actually highly inflammable. They settled for lethal injection.

Cheers,

Graham


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#98 2nd May 2007, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreid
P.S.

Regarding the 30 years, if the prisoner doesn't like it, he can always drop the appeals and some have.

Stan



Well said.


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#99 2nd May 2007, 11:15 PM
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I always wondered why carbon monoxide was not used in the gas chamber. The condemned person would just go to sleep and die then it could be easily disposed of through a burner that would convert it into harmless carbon dioxide. Maybe it's because the convict wouldn't suffer enough.

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#100 2nd May 2007, 11:17 PM
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P.S.

Of the five methods of execution now available in the U.S., probably the least painful is the firing squad-a bit messy though.

Stan
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#101 2nd May 2007, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreid
I always wondered why carbon monoxide was not used in the gas chamber. The condemned person would just go to sleep and die then it could be easily disposed of through a burner that would convert it into harmless carbon dioxide. Maybe it's because the convict wouldn't suffer enough.

Stan


Stan,

I've wondered about this myself. The Nazis used carbon monoxide initially, via the exhaust of large vans. Cyanide causes convulsions, muscular spasms and God knows what else. Not nice.

Cheers,

Graham


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#102 3rd May 2007, 12:58 AM
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Hi Stan and Graham,

While I am willing to admit to occasional doubts about the death penalty, there is one aspect of the argument, based on the Federal Constitution, that
is pushed down our throats by the anti-death execution people: That all forms of execution have flaws in them that make them violate the so-called
"cruel and unusual" punishment clause. It always reminds me of a poem by
Dorothy Parker about suicide:

Acid stains you
Rivers are damp;
Razors pain you
Drugs cause cramp

Drugs are unlawful,
Nooses give;
Gas smells awful -
You might as well live!

This is the problem. All methods of artificially forced premature or man-made
death on people (i.e. executions, suicides...and murders) are not painless. Even if a person appeared to die in his or her sleep, or when unconscious,
the people around them only think it is painless - they don't know how the
body might be struggling for breath, or wondering why everything seems to be slipping out of physical control. The body of the dead person must be
fully aware of things physically going haywire.

But that fact also applies to natural death as well as artificially forced premature death. Recently I was rushed to the hospital - I could barely
breath. No gas chamber involved: just some large natural gas build-up that
could find no way out of my system. It literarly was strangling me.

An anti-death penalty supporter would just shake his or her head. That
is just an unfortunate chance - and it would have been sad if it killed you,
but it was just a matter of bad luck.

Yet I could argue that it shows that nature or God allows the practice of
cruel and unusual death practices to follow us all to the grave. If that is
the case, why should we not have the same right to protect society
with the same right to use cruel and unusual death that nature or God
uses on us?

I feel that if you have a case like Ellis or Chessman you might think about
a degree of mercy and compassion either because of the pressures that led to the crime or to changes in the personality of the defendant, so as to
reduce the sentences. But to me the average "spokesperson" against the
death sentence has a personal social agenda. The death penalty should
be reduced to just life imprisonment, but then along comes one of these boobs (I mentioned Lord Longford before) who can't see the truth about his
subjects (poor Myra) until it is clobbered onto his head. Longford would have slowly undermined the life imprisonment sentence to 20 or 30 years, and then that to 10 years. To me, at some point the Longfords of the world
become more dangerous to society protecting itself than they are worth.
Ironically, their activities might become so dangerous to the rest of us that
we might have grounds to wonder if the death penalty should be applied to them!

Best wishes,

Jeff


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#103 3rd May 2007, 01:24 AM
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Hi Jeff,

I would have to say that all punishment is cruel; that's what makes it punishment. My assumption was that the constitution was referring to forms specifically designed to inflict extreme lingering physical pain such as drawing and quartering, death of a thousand cuts, crucifixion or burning at the stake. None of the five methods available for use in the United States is designed to inflict pain, in fact, all were chosen to make the death less painful than previously used methods. Capital punishment (or crimes at least) is mentioned in the Constitution so that makes it clear to me that they didn't consider it cruel in the sense that they meant in the cruel and unusual reference. One might argue that the electric chair is quite unusual.

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#104 3rd May 2007, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Stan,

Thirty years??!!?? So you're saying it's possible to spend the best part of your life in gaol, and still get executed? No wonder Amnesty International has its claws well into the US legal system. That is totally barbaric!

Cheers,

Graham


Paradoxically, I heard recently that the life expectancy of young black males on death row in some US states now far exceeds that of those outside the prison system, where the leading cause of death is, of course, murder.


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#105 4th May 2007, 01:15 PM
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hi all

this thread is getting more and more interesting. thanks for all your views.

another question, again a bit off topic, is the case of the executioner. do i remember right that Albert Pierpoint once said capital punishment is pointless, other than being society's revenge, and that he eventually killed himself. i know that firing squads usually have one blank cartridge, and the lethal injection machine is started by more than one person, so none of the executioners really knows for sure.

not exactly the job i would apply for...

regards

larue


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#106 4th May 2007, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreid
Hi Jeff,

I would have to say that all punishment is cruel; that's what makes it punishment. My assumption was that the constitution was referring to forms specifically designed to inflict extreme lingering physical pain such as drawing and quartering, death of a thousand cuts, crucifixion or burning at the stake. None of the five methods available for use in the United States is designed to inflict pain, in fact, all were chosen to make the death less painful than previously used methods. Capital punishment (or crimes at least) is mentioned in the Constitution so that makes it clear to me that they didn't consider it cruel in the sense that they meant in the cruel and unusual reference. One might argue that the electric chair is quite unusual.

Stan


Hi Stan.

Last year I actually started a post on Pub Talk - 'Methods of Capital Punishment', and there were some pretty good comments posted by all you morbid lot out there. The chair was supposed to be a dignified method of exit from this mortal coil, because of several goof-ups by hangmen around the USA. It was also very much to do with commercial enterprise, cf Edison and Westinghouse. My own preferred method would be to lock the offender up in a room with all of Tony Blair's speeches endlessly repeated on a (bullet-proof) TV monitor, and a loaded pistol. Five minutes, maybe? Even less?

Cheers,

Graham


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#107 4th May 2007, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larue
hi all

this thread is getting more and more interesting. thanks for all your views.

another question, again a bit off topic, is the case of the executioner. do i remember right that Albert Pierpoint once said capital punishment is pointless, other than being society's revenge, and that he eventually killed himself. i know that firing squads usually have one blank cartridge, and the lethal injection machine is started by more than one person, so none of the executioners really knows for sure.

not exactly the job i would apply for...

regards

larue


Hi Larue,

No, Pierrepoint didn't kill himself, he died in a nursing-home. He also resigned his position as executioner over an argument with the Home Office about his fees. He kept a pub for some years before he died. People used to go in there just to hang out......

Cheers,

Graham


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#108 4th May 2007, 05:26 PM
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Hi all,

About 20 years ago here in Illinois there was a proposal to hold a lottery to determine who got to pull the lever on Gacy. If they'd done so, I would have entered. Had I "won", not being a killer, it would have bothered me to execute even this monster but I would have done my duty.

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#109 4th May 2007, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreid
Hi all,

About 20 years ago here in Illinois there was a proposal to hold a lottery to determine who got to pull the lever on Gacy. If they'd done so, I would have entered. Had I "won", not being a killer, it would have bothered me to execute even this monster but I would have done my duty.

Stan


Hi Stan,

Long time ago I read a rather disturbing book called 'Death Work' by Robert Johnson (not the blues singer...) about execution-day in Florida in the early 1980's. Though fictional, it was based on fact. The guy the State of Florida selected to throw the switch couldn't do it when the crunch came, and he later committed suicide. Don't think Robert Elliott would have had such a problem - he once did eight in a morning, apparently. Which, by the way, pales into insignificance compared to Pierrepoint, who topped about 250 in the aftermath of the Nuremburg Trials. And he died peacefully in bed at a ripe old age.

Cheers,

Graham


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#110 4th May 2007, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larue
...do i remember right that Albert Pierpoint once said capital punishment is pointless, other than being society's revenge, and that he eventually killed himself...


Don't think he did top himself...

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#111 4th May 2007, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigby
Don't think he did top himself...


Check my post above re: Pierrepoint. He died in bed.

Cheers,

Graham


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#112 4th May 2007, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Hi Larue,
People used to go in there just to hang out......



groans....


very strange, i must be thinking of someone else. i'm sure i read of a hangman who's last customer was himself. [wonder if he got his usual fee in advance? ]
i thought it was pierpoint.

that's the trouble with getting old, the memory starts to fail...

regards

larue


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#113 4th May 2007, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larue
groans....


very strange, i must be thinking of someone else. i'm sure i read of a hangman who's last customer was himself. [wonder if he got his usual fee in advance? ]
i thought it was pierpoint.

that's the trouble with getting old, the memory starts to fail...

regards

larue


It may well have been James Berry who thought, "Oh, sod this!" and did himself in. After all, he was responsible for one or two botched hangings.
Also, whoever dispatched Edith Thompson may well have put an end to himself.

How old's "Old", Larue?

Cheers,

Graham


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#114 5th May 2007, 09:33 AM
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hi Graham

borned in '51. tho' at the moment it feels more like 1851.

i have read loads of crime related books over the years, so i suppose all that knowledge is just becoming part of my mental background noise now.

i know that the hang 'em / dont hang 'em debate is a thorny issue. glad i don't have to make that decision...

best reagards

larue


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#115 5th May 2007, 01:06 PM
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The Executioner who did himself in

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi all,

Larue, the executioner who killed himself was not Albert Pierrepont, but it was John Ellis, the man who hanged Crippen among others. He had the misfortune to have to execute Edith Thompson, and it was the most unnerving execution he ever performed. Mrs. Thompson (who's guilt, and who's prosecution by Sir Thomas Inskip and Mr. Justice Shearman seemed based on her adultery with Frederick Byswater rather than actual proof that she planned the murder of her husband Percy with Byswater) was in a state of total collapse and panic when she had to go the gallows. Apparently her
state was so bad that her vagina collapse and fell out (I'm not making that up - it's a physical result). Subsequently canvas bag "panties" (for want of a better term) were ordered for all female prisoners going to the gallows.
Ellis never recovered. He retired a number of years later, and tried his hands as a barber. He also took to drink. I believe he killed himself about 1934.

It was not the worst fate of any of the official hangmen. In 1718 a former
executioner named Price was hanged for murder!

Best wishes,

Jeff


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#116 6th May 2007, 07:46 PM
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Hi Jeff,

I couldn't recall the name of Thompson's hangman, ref: my earlier post. I also have a vague recollection of reading once that Ellis screwed up at least one other execution, due largely to incompetence.

Hanratty was hanged by Harry Allen who, I believe, was the last hangman in the UK.

Cheers,

Graham


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#117 6th May 2007, 08:00 PM
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Hi Graham,

Weren't there at least two hangmen in the 1964 hangings?

Stan
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#118 6th May 2007, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
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Hi Graham,

Weren't there at least two hangmen in the 1964 hangings?

Stan


And you're right, too, Stan! It was a double job. Should all be on the net, though.

Cheers,

Graham


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#119 7th May 2007, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayerling
Hi all,

Larue, the executioner who killed himself was not Albert Pierrepont, but it was John Ellis, the man who hanged Crippen among others.
Best wishes,

Jeff


thank you for that, Jeff. i was certain i had read somewhere of an executioner's suicide, but had remembered the wrong one!!

best regards

larue


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#120 8th May 2007, 08:04 PM
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Just getting back to the Hanratty Case for a moment, does anyone out there have any knowledge what happened to the Morris Minor car? Call it morbid curiosity, but I've been trying to find this out for years.

Cheers,

Graham

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#121 9th May 2007, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
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Just getting back to the Hanratty Case for a moment, does anyone out there have any knowledge what happened to the Morris Minor car? Call it morbid curiosity, but I've been trying to find this out for years.

Cheers,

Graham


hi Graham

no idea, sorry. i doubt it was the subject of such widespread fascination as the Bonnie and Clyde 'Death Car' which still exists.

i assume that with Gregsten's death, it became the property of his wife, [after the forensics people had finished with it] and i doubt that she would have wanted to keep it, so maybe it was sold on, and eventually scrapped, as is the fate of most cars. having said that though, there are still quite a few old 'Mogs' running around. you never know.

the only thing i could suggest, is trying the DVLA in swansea, though i would not hold my breath while waiting...

best regards

larue


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#122 9th May 2007, 12:41 PM
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Putting in the reg no on the AA website will indicate if the thing is still ticking somewhere.


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#123 9th May 2007, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigby
Putting in the reg no on the AA website will indicate if the thing is still ticking somewhere.


I am positive photos exist of the car.


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#124 10th May 2007, 09:56 PM
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Hi all.

And thanks to everyone reference the Hanratty murder car. I drew a blank with the AA website. Haven't tried the DVLA yet - I had enough trouble with that crew when I mislaid my driving license a while back.

Larue,

the car certainly didn't come into the possession of Mrs Gregsten, I do know that. In fact, Michael Gregsten borrowed the car from an aunt, after he sold his own car (another Minor) when he was strapped for cash. I am fairly certain that that good lady wouldn't have wanted it...

Granger,

There are photos of the car in Paul Foot's book and also in Bob Woffinden's, but only the exterior. The police took photos of the interior which, according to what I've read, was absolutely gutted with blood. What happened to these photos, I don't know. Another little mystery: Gregsten was shot at point-blank range with a .38 revolver, yet a close study of the photos of the car reveals no bullet damage (as far as I can tell), but the autopsy on Gregsten stated that he'd been shot 'through and through'; that is, the two bullets passed right through his head. They must have gone somewhere...

I believe Bob Woffinden made some inquiries as to the whereabouts of the forensic exhibits (photos, clothes, the car, etc), but drew a blank. Probably all destroyed, apart from the shreds of Valerie Storey's underwear and Hanratty's hankie that were found stored in a lab drawer years afterwards.

Cheers,

Graham

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#125 10th May 2007, 10:07 PM
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Hi Graham,

Perhaps the bullets went out the window, that is, if it was open; just a guess.

Stan
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#126 10th May 2007, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreid
Hi Graham,

Perhaps the bullets went out the window, that is, if it was open; just a guess.

Stan


Evening Stan.

Good point. As I understand it, Hanratty was sitting in the centre of the rear seat, he was right-handed, and shot Gregsten as the latter was turning round to pass a bag to Hanratty. (Remember that this was a right-hand drive car). The autopsy photos have never been published (fortunately, I'd say) but I gather that both shots hit Gregsten in the left rear side of his head and came out through his face... I would have thought that the bullets must have gone through the windscreen, if anywhere, but the photos of the car show no damage to the screen. So yes, maybe you're right. I'd never thought of that.

Cheers,

Graham.


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#127 10th May 2007, 11:13 PM
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Hi Graham,

Yes, you would think the windscreen would have been in the line of fire. Bullets sometimes get deflected in strange directions but it would be a very low probability that two would have been taken that same bent path. Perhaps the passage through the tissue slowed them so much that they just bounced off the glass without damaging it. I know, more conjecture but not impossible.

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#128 10th May 2007, 11:17 PM
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P.S.

Any chance that they got the entry and exit wounds switched? Sometimes a near contact wound looks like an exit wound. I mean if he had turned to hand back the bag.

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#129 11th May 2007, 09:03 PM
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Hi Stan.

As I said, no autopsy photos of Gregsten have ever been published, at least to my knowledge, but in the last TV programme dedicated to the Hanratty Case his son stated that Gregsten's face had more or less been blown off. I'd say that this would indicate that the shots entered at the rear of his head and exited through the front. This also indicates that Gregsten was not actually facing Hanratty when the latter pulled the trigger. I don't know enough about ballistics to even ponder how a human head would slow down rounds fired from a .38 handgun at point-blank range.

I'm in the process of reading the Hanratty Appeal Proceedings from 2002, so if anything turns up apropos the actual shooting itself, I'll post.

Cheers,

Graham


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#130 18th May 2007, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Larue, In fact, Michael Gregsten borrowed the car from an aunt


i did not know that! i'm sure she would not have wanted it back either!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Another little mystery: Gregsten was shot at point-blank range with a .38 revolver, yet a close study of the photos of the car reveals no bullet damage (as far as I can tell), but the autopsy on Gregsten stated that he'd been shot 'through and through'; that is, the two bullets passed right through his head. They must have gone somewhere...


i think they would have been recovered, but were too deformed for a ballistics test. that's why the cartridge cases were used to id the weapon instead.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Probably all destroyed, apart from the shreds of Valerie Storey's underwear and Hanratty's hankie that were found stored in a lab drawer years afterwards.


how fortunate for the dna test.

i have just gotten the first book i ordered from the library. it's paul foot's. i'm looking forward to finding out what he has to say. other books are on order

best regards

larue

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#131 18th May 2007, 08:27 PM
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Hi Larue.

Glad to see you're maintaining your interest in this fascinating case. You did well to get hold of a copy of Paul Foot's book, which these days is quite rare, I believe. Don't want to spoil your reading pleasure, but just bear in mind that Paul Foot was something of a left-wing reactionary in the 1960's right up until his death a few years ago, and he took every opportunity to lambast the 'Establishment' via his writings - he had a regular column in 'Private Eye' for years and years.

My puzzlement over the shots in the car stems from the fact that there was no apparent bullet-damage to the car itself, judging from the photos of its exterior, and as I said earlier Gregsten was shot 'through and through' - that is, the two bullets passed clear through his head, poor bloke. So where did they end up? I understand that forensic photos were taken of the interior of the car (be surprised if none were), but to the best of my knowledge they have never been published in a general publication. Because they were too gruesome, or what? Stan made the excellent suggestion that the window of the car might have been open, and the bullets went through it.

The other publication you ought to read is the Appeal dated 10 May 2002, which you can get online at https://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/...6/HANRATTY.htm. Well worth downloading, as it gives a more modern-day appreciation of this weird case.

Can I please ask you what country you're posting from?

Cheers,

Graham


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#132 19th May 2007, 12:20 AM
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hi Graham

i'm posting from the uk. west midlands to be more precise. i understand that paul foot was pro hanratty biased, and will bear that in mind as i read his book. i'm just finishing reading 'bernard spillsbury-his life and cases'.

in the late 60's early 70's, i briefly owned a morris minor, one of the early side valved split windscreen models. [how i wish i had kept it. would be worth a small fortune by now....] 'twas a very small car, and though the open window theory would indeed explain where the bullets went, [assuming a straight trajectory after passing through gregsten's head], i would have thought that the bullets would have been more likely to have hit somewhere inside the car. even if hanratty had been sitting directly behind storie, with the pistol in his left hand, the muzzle would be no more than 3 feet or so from the driver's window, and in order to fire through the window, as it were, i would have thought that the pistol would need to have been held rather high, and at a rather awkward angle. difficult, but not impossible. as an aside, the interior of a minor was physically not condusive to sexual activity, especially this one, being blood spattered. the events of that night amost beggar belief.

i downloaded the appeal transcript a week or so ago. [thank you for the info] it made fascinating reading.

best regards

larue


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#133 19th May 2007, 08:27 AM
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Hi Larue.

Well, well! I too had a Morris Minor - mine was 1952, it cost £45, split-screen, speedo behind the steering-wheel, over-head valve Blue Riband recon engine, wing-mounted headlights, dark green, no heater, and with 997cc of spitting naked power under the bonnet. It had the legend "Hogsnort Rupert" (a band of the time) painted in psychedelic style above the rear screen, as was the trend in 1967. I went all over the UK in that little wagon, only to write it off outside the gates of West Bromwich Albion FC when the cable-brakes wouldn't hold it and I fetched up in the rear of a large car full of Irish navvies! Them wuz the days!

Enjoy Paul Foot!

Cheers,

Graham


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#134 19th May 2007, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Hi Larue.

Glad to see you're maintaining your interest in this fascinating case. You did well to get hold of a copy of Paul Foot's book, which these days is quite rare, I believe.


Actually the book is very easy to acquire in the UK. The book dealers' rates for airmail p&p to the States are usually quite reasonable.

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/Se... oot&y=17&x=52

abebooks.co.uk is an excellent web site to acquire true crime books.

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Last edited by granger : 19th May 2007 at 10:04 AM.


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#135 19th May 2007, 11:17 AM
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hi Granger

thanks for the info, though i have used abebooks in the past. actually, my local library have been doing the business for me, as in the past year or so, i have requested several older/obsure books from them, and they have not let me down yet! currently they are searching for 'the shadow of deadman's hill' and '10 rillington place'

best ragards

larue


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#136 19th May 2007, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larue
hi Granger

thanks for the info, though i have used abebooks in the past. actually, my local library have been doing the business for me, as in the past year or so, i have requested several older/obsure books from them, and they have not let me down yet! currently they are searching for 'the shadow of deadman's hill' and '10 rillington place'

best ragards

larue


Hi larue: I too can honestly say that over many, many years my local UK library has NEVER let me down yet. Last year they even obtained a very rare book from Princetown in the States, and all for less than a £1 a book. I think I am correct in saying, if it has been published they will be able to obtain a copy. I also find that they will also order copies of any new books awaiting publication.


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#137 19th May 2007, 05:19 PM
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Lord Russell of Liverpools book

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Hi All;
Just been reading Deadmans Hill was Hanratty Guilty? By Lord Russell of Liverpool. A masterly account of the murder, transcripts trial etc published in 1965.Liverpool thinks the trial and indentification evidence very dodgy indeed, which appears to be so.Hanratty should definitely not have been convicted on the evidence and he had no history of violence or weird stuff with women, he was a petty crook, but liked . Particually odd is the that the A6 Murderer gave Storie a lot of information about his life which does not fit Hanratty.The evidence of Kerr the undergraduate working as a traffic enumerator second person to see Storie after the murder, she described to him a man with light fairish fair and large staring blue eyes. Hanratty's hair was auburn and dyed dark brown at the time.Al the night before the murder Aphon was also staying at the Vienna Hotel at the same time as Hanratty, the cartridge cases were found 18 days after the murder. Nudds hotel manager had given false statements to police. The witness evidence of those who saw the morris minor the day after was unrealiable.Langdale the criminal 's evidence was descibed as fantasy[ a lot of It was wrong] he claimed Hanratty confessed to the crime while they were in Brixton. Hanratty's Liverpool evidence was detailed and compelling[ he had made a statement to Acott before the trial about being in Liverpool] even down to describing passengers on the train and attendant at Lime ST left luggage office and plenty of witnesses. The second identikit picture appeared to have been doctored to make it look more like Hanratty as none of the id witnesses had descibed the details in the picture such as the thickened eyebrow.The evidence of Mrs Dalal is interesting as she was attacked by a man on 7th sept[ when Hanratty was in Ireland]A man called at her house in answer to an ad to rent a room hit her over the head dragged her on to the bed coshed her tied her up gagged her and told her he was the a6 murderer and wanted money, he said he would kill her if she screamed and lifted up her skirt, but she screamed anyway and he ran away down the stairs, Later at an id parade she picked out Alphon. It all depend on Valerie Storie. Alphon had hazel eyes not staring blue. Storie identified Hanratty by his voice

I have a feeling Alphon died recently, he lived in Bedfordshire. I remember a few years ago a load of articles about him in the Bedfordshire local papers. Hanratty is still a hot case in Bedford. Miss Marple

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#138 19th May 2007, 10:26 PM
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Evening Miss M.

Nice to see someone else drawn to this fascinating case.

Lord Russell was one who was 'always on the side of the angels', so to speak; he was a major voice in the campaign to abolish capital punishment in the UK. He saw the unfairness of Hanratty's trial - police withholding of evidence, a slightly questionable identification, etc., etc., and he did his best to highlight these matters. Hanratty's brief said that the case was 'sagging with coincidences', and he was, and remains, correct. However, the cold facts are, no matter how unsatisfactory was his trial, the DNA really can't be argued with. Hanratty did it. Paul Foot and Bob Woffinden argued for Hanratty's innocence, but in all honesty (and not necessarily with the benefit of hindsight, because there really was a surprising lack of support at the time for Hanratty's innocence) they were regarding the case either from a political viewpoint, or with (heavily) rose-tinted spectacles. Jean Justice, who was the prime-mover behind the 'Hanratty Is Innocent' campaign, is now perceived as a very anti-establishment voice who, frankly, used the Hanratty Case for his own (weird) political ends. Not one of these writers actually had a single scrap of hard evidence to support Hanratty's innocence. The only impassionate book I've read is that by Leonard Miller, who simply looks at the known, hard facts, and draws his conclusions from them.

Alphon was last known living in Euston, but I do believe he has died withing the past couple of years.

Valerie Storie is still with us, but her last known public statement was for a TV programme made (I think) about 5 years ago (I'd have to check my tape to be sure) and since then she has refused to make any further comment - she never, ever, deviated from her absolute conviction that it was Hanratty, not Alphon, who murdered Gregsten and raped and shot her.

My personal interest in this case goes right back to when it actually happened, and I admit that for years I was convinced of Hanratty's innocence - almost right up until the DNA results, in fact. However, I am still rather persuaded that there was, and is, more to this case than meets the eye, and my persuasion that this is so rests on Michael Sherrard's comment about 'coincidences'. I have always shied away from any kind of conspiracy, but the known facts strongly suggest that there was something in the background. What that something might have been is hard to say....perhaps there's another book waiting to be written.

Is the Hanratty Case really still hot stuff in Bedford, Miss M? If it is, I'm not surprised, but I think that Hanratty has more or less faded from public interest these days.

Cheers,

Graham


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#139 21st May 2007, 05:53 PM
miss marple
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hanratty

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Hi Graham,
The reference library in Bedford has a lot of books on the A6 murder and the local papers periodically have articles about it. I ve spoken to locals who were around at the time and quite a few of them believed Hanratty was innocent.
Your right. Dna does not make mistakes.But I would like to know more about the dna tests. Was it Hanratty's seman found on Valerie's pants? Where did they get Hanratty's dna? was it from relatives? Was there any unknown dna and how contaminated was it?
He still should not have been convicted on the evidence as presented at the trial, which was dodgy id and lying witnesses.
There are still anomilies, the number of witnesses who identified someone who resembled Alphon or was Alphon.
No one mentioned Hanratty's distinctive widow's peak which meant his hair could not be pushed back in the way described.
The details of the A6 murderer's life as told to Storie did not resemble Hanratty.Cheers Miss Marple


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#140 22nd May 2007, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Evening BT.

I have driven both up and down Deadman's Hill dozens of times over the years, but when about 10 years ago I decided to locate the exact spot, it was more difficult than I expected. There is another 'kind of' lay-by lower down the hill, but obviously that didn't fit. I think that the lay-by wasn't originally a lay-by at all, but the entrance into the adjacent woodland estate.
A service-road sort of thing.

These days there's a mobile cafe there, and it's a favourite stop for lorry-drivers.

I rather agree with Leonard Miller that James Hanratty already knew this spot before he took Gregsten and Storey there.

Incidentally, the entrance to the cornfield at Dorney Reach is now the entrance to what appears to be some kind of electricity sub-station.

Leonard Miller also made the erudite comment that the Hanratty Case was the first high-profile murder-case in which a car strongly featured, at least in the UK.

Cheers,

Graham

Hello Graham

I would be interested to know how close you came to being able to pinpoint the exact spot the murder took place. I've tried to do so on several occasions using the black & white photos published at the time and the descrption in Bob Woffinden's book. The layby has changed considerably in the intervening 45 years and the only consistent landmark to judge it by is the little group of houses at the top of the hill, though they are now screened off by trees. The road is now a dual carriageway, though I think the new lane was added in the fields opposite the layby judging by the line of the road, so the northbound lane of the dual carriageway was the old single carriageway road which means the layby is still substantially in the same location as it was in 1961. Of course, who knows what changes were made when the road was widened, almost certainly the contractors closed off the layby and used it for their machinery etc.

Mid-way along the layby is a pedestrian entrance to the nature trails in the woods. This would fit some of the descriptions of the exact location, except for it being mid-way - 'a strip of parking space parallel to the main road' - I have always believed the murder took place nearer to the top end of the layby. If you stand at the top-end and look down through the overgrowth and the trees there does seem to be a natural embankment resembling the old b&w photos. Perhaps this is the 'exact' spot?

Interestingly, Bob Woffinden describes how Gregsten was instructed to turn the car around at the far end of the 'concrete service road' and even today traffic using this layby treats it as a two-way road. I have seen vehicles enter from the top 'exit' and leave by the bottom 'entrance' and turn around within the layby.

Kind regards,
Steve

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#141 22nd May 2007, 07:36 PM
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Hi Miss M.

I've been to Bedford and visited Deadman's Hill a few times, but never been to the library. Interesting that people around Bedford still think that Hanratty was innocent, when back in 1962 most people thought he did it - but a number of high-profile people (including John Lennon and Yoko Ono, would you believe) supported his campaign and doubtless changed opinions along the way.

As far as I'm aware, the only male DNA found on Miss Storie's underwear was that of Gregsten (rather naturally, one would think...) and Hanratty's. There was no other. On the hankie, only Hanratty's was found, and no other. DNA was obtained from his mother and brother, and from his teeth when his body was exhumed. There was a slight possibility of cross-contamination of the underwear, but I think that that has now been ruled out. He did it, all right.

Alphon was the police's first and prime suspect. His Identikit resembled Hanratty, and when his photo was eventually published a lot of people said he closely resembled Hanratty, but I'm not convinced. His presence in the investigation is almost certainly down to sheer coincidence, but on the other hand the word 'almost' is the operative one, and I still have this nagging suspicion that he was somehow involved. Had Miss Storie picked him out in the i.d. parade, then he would almost certainly have been convicted and executed - he really was putting his life on the line. However, once it was obvious that the police had no evidence against him, he went about braying to anyone who cared to listen that he was the 'real' A6 killer - and not a few people believed him. There were, and are, rumours that Alphon and Hanratty were known to each other, and that Alphon also knew certain members of Gregsten's family. Until there is strong evidence that this was the case, I can't believe those rumours. One small point: Miss Storey said that the gunman was 'immaculately dressed'; at the time of the murder Alphonse was a total scruff, living out of a suitcase. It was well-known that Hanratty was something of a dandy, and took great pains regarding his appearance.

What Hanratty said in the car is related only and solely by Miss Storie. She was (and is) a very astute and strong-minded lady, and neither Hanratty's defence nor the police saw much reason not to accept what she said. To me, it sounded like Hanratty was acting the tough guy in the car, and building a 'legend' for himself.

The trial was without doubt somewhat flawed in terms of police evidence, and evidence given by defence witnesses, who in one case in particular were flat-footed by the prosecution.

As I said earlier, Hanratty sealed his own fate by choosing to take the witness-stand, and also by changing his alibi after the trial had begun. His famous 'Rhyl Alibi' can fairly easily be shot down, as Leonard Miller did in short order.

I rather think that Hanratty's supporters (notably Paul Foot, Jean Justice and Bob Woffinden) tended to overlook the effect Hanratty himself had on the jury - he did himself no favours, simple as that. In the end, he was convicted really on Miss Storie's identification, of which at the time she was 100% certain and has never to this day wavered from that certainty.

For what it's worth, my feelings are that Hanratty (who may well have been likeable to those he actually liked) had made his adult living from relatively petty crime, and decided to go for the big time. He told his friend that he was going to get a gun and 'do hold-ups'. But - and a big but - how on earth did he think that by holding up a courting-couple in a small car was going to fill his pockets with riches? This is where I still think that there is something just below the surface of this case - I cannot quite get my head around the bald claim that he was in that particular cornfield on that particular night just by chance. Yes, he did it - but why?

Cheers,

Graham


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#142 22nd May 2007, 08:11 PM
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Hi Steve.

Good question. It's a couple of years since I've been there. But you are right when you say that the A6 had been widened by paving into the fields opposite the lay-by, making an excellent race-track for the local boy-racers.

As to the actual spot. If you look at the crime-scene photos in Paul Foot's book, the first photo is taken from the southern end of the lay-by (actually described as a service-road, but I've never figured out what it serviced) where the AA box used to stand. There is a wide grass verge between the lay-by and the A6 road. These days that verge is very heavily overgrown with trees and undergrowth. I think that 'the' spot is right at the northern end of the lay-by, just where it begins to curve to the right to form a junction with the A6. Last time I was there gravel, etc., had been piled up at the very top end of the lay-by, for some unknown reason. Might just be me, but even when the lay-by is stuffed full of trucks and cars, it's still a bit of a melancholy place. You also take your life in your hands pulling out of the lay-by back onto the A6....

Valerie Storie did say that the gunman made Gregsten turn the car around so it was facing south, and that's the direction he drove off in.

And one last thing which I've never mentioned before: about 10 years ago when I stopped by there were a few bunches of withered flowers placed between the lay-by and the woods right at the top end. I had a closer look, but there was no card or anything to link the flowers with Michael Gregsten. They'd obviously been there for quite a long time. It was close to Christmas, as it happened.

Cheers,

Graham


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#143 22nd May 2007, 10:33 PM
Steve
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Hello Graham

Interesting that you think the layby a melancholy place. I've been there several times, most recently yesterday, and I always feel bad vibes. Not everyone shares this feeling; the mobile caterer is there undaunted, and there are always people walking dogs and kids riding bikes in the nearby woods. Perhaps the melancholy feelings stem from our knowledge of the events which took place there. That said, it is a most unusual layby in many respects!

Dorney Reach, for me, feels very different. It is just a pleasant suburb of Slough with no bad vibes. Incidentally, are you certain that the locked gates are the actual spot where the Morris Minor entered the cornfield? It's very close to the neighbouring houses which must have been there in 1961. I believe a more likely place is further north, towards the A4 but before the M4 bridge. This point would be about right for the 'noise from neighbouring cottages, possibly putting a bike away.' There is no entry into the cornfield at this point, but there could well have been in 1961. I think the locked gates are something to do with the local water, I've seen vans coming and going.

Also of possible bearing as to how the gunman arrived at the cornfield, on the opposite of the road is a rambler's footpath leading off in the direction of Slough. I don't know if this was there in 1961 but I would be very surprised if it wasn't, and this would be the obvious route the gunman took, assuming he arrived on foot. If the cornfield entry is that little bit further north as I believe it to have been, he would just have popped out of the footpath and seen the Morris Minor right infront of him. He could even have spotted it as he walked along the footpath. It was still light enough at that time.

Regards,
Steve


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#144 25th May 2007, 03:52 PM
JBB
Police Constable Join Date: May 2007
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James Hanratty

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I have followed the crime since the 1960's and being a teenager. Put the DNA to one side- and I appreciate that at moment it appears incontravertable but history often proves sciene is not as infallibel as it thikds there ate too many disturbing coincidences in this case that I suggest points that the murder had hidden agendas and hidden people behind the facts-a la Ruth Ellis.

Firstly it is not credible that Hanratty was just wandering around fields aimlessly with a gun to seek any one out. Why there? Why not nearer London . To appear when the car was in the field-what are the odds for that being random? Peter Alphon did not appear just due to speculation by Jean Justice in the case. He stayed in the same room and James Hanratty.Ryan at the Mida Vale Hotel. What concidence. William Ewer and Janet Gregsten view Hanratty in a North London street and know he is the suspect!
Charles France it now appears knew William Ewer and approached him after the murder. There is evidence now to suggest that Louise Anderson and William Ewer did know each other. Alphon's bank account did have a regular large amount of money going in at one point-why? Incidentally he was not a untidy drifter appearance at murder time. He had a smart raincoat with red lining which one witness at Dorney reach had seen before-a person with a raincoat with that lining. Before the murder at least on seperate occasions.
We do not know that was Alphon but again coincidence.

Miller suggests that Hanratty knew the layby to park in at time of murder. There is not a scrap of evidence for this assertion and if we use Valeries Stories evidence which again, mythically, was not consistent.-the early descriptions of the man given TO THE POLICE were different than the final version. (Often the first version is the most accurate as it said at the time-stress or not.) then she asserts that several times the car pulled into places before the lay by to stop but for various reasons did not stop there.

Of course we shall never know if the murder actually took place at Dorney reach-simply Valerie Storie in her first statements to the road traffic counter indicated that they had picked up a hitchhiker. Later this was indicated as an error but?

The evidence of the car in London travelling around is mythical and clearly a lie. The Police knew that the car had been in his resting place long before the two witnesses saw it and gave evidence at the pre trial and the actual Trial.. It was clearly impossible and known they had seen it, yet they gave descriptions in court of the car etc-where had these come from and who had coached them into saying this.? They were too descriptive to be mistaken yet they were. Police hidden evidence later revealed showed that the car had been in its final place, much earlier than had been revealed to the Press and Defence.

Anway will write mor elater--but that shoudk get peope started.

Also WILLIAM NUDDS? One of the most disreputable characters to appear for a prosecution, and manager at the Maida Vale Hotel-another coincidence?


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#145 25th May 2007, 08:08 PM
Graham
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Hi JBB.

Yes, as I said before, the whole Hanratty Case is top-heavy with coincidence. After the Ripper, it's odd to debate a case in which we know who did it, but the big question with Hanratty is - why?

If, as he said, he had got himself a gun to be a stick-up man, and do better than just ordinary burglaries, why was he holding up a courting couple in a semi-rural field? (Check my previous posts). What could he hope to get? A few quid, a bit of jewellery, the car? And how come he was, as Miss Storie said, 'immaculately dressed' that evening? Why there, at that precise time? I just can't get my head around it being a totally random act on his part. And there were witnesses at the time who said that they'd seen a man closely resembling Alphon walking around Dorney Reach shortly before the fatal evening of August 22 1961. Many people remarked that Alphon and Hanratty resembled each other - maybe, but not to my total satisfaction. There are also somewhat disturbing suggestions that Alphon and Hanratty knew each other, and that they both frequented the Rehearsal Club in Soho. As did Dixie France.

Alphon really was the 'man in a suitcase', a loner and a wanderer who made a living as a barman, selling almanacks door-to-door, and from gambling on the dogs. When he was first arrested, he was scruffy and unshaven, down on his luck, but he admitted to having had big wins in the past, which he'd either gamble away again or, sometimes, live well for a while.

I don't quite understand your assertion that 'we shall never know if the murder took place at Dorney Reach'. The murder took place on Deadman's Hill, absolutely no doubt about that.

Yes, Miss Storie's initial statement describing the killer was lost - and the police made a rather transparent effort to repair this damage at the trial by producing what they claimed to be the original hand-written statement. It wasn't. Miss Storie never said that they had picked up a hitch-hiker - she said that they had 'picked this man up' at Dorney Reach. The first press-reports referred to it as a 'hitch-hiker murder'.

William Ewer (Janet Gregsten's brother-in-law) almost certainly was acquainted with Louise Anderson, who is still described as 'Hanratty's girl-friend' (which she wasn't), but as both Ewer and Anderson dealt in antiques there may well have been innocent reasons for their knowing each other. However, it may well be that, after the murder, Anderson perhaps hinted to Ewer that she knew the man wanted for the A6 murder, and could well have even 'grassed' on him to Ewer. We'll never know, as both are now almost certainly dead.

Incidentally, Miller says that the identity of Ryan as James Hanratty was revealed to the police via the postcard Hanratty had written from Ireland, with the help of the man he met there; however, in this instance I do prefer Bob Woffinden's version that it was Dixie France who first made the identification to the police.

What happened at the Vienna House Hotel is now so muddled and confused that we'll certainly never know the full facts of that scenario - I've read all there is to read about it time after time and still can't quite get my head around it.

Hard to say much more in the limited space on these boards - but as you've obviously read Miller's book, you know as much as anyone, Miller being the first truly dispassionate writer on this incredibly complicated case.

Cheers,

Graham


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#146 25th May 2007, 08:14 PM
Graham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Hello Graham

Interesting that you think the layby a melancholy place. I've been there several times, most recently yesterday, and I always feel bad vibes. Not everyone shares this feeling; the mobile caterer is there undaunted, and there are always people walking dogs and kids riding bikes in the nearby woods. Perhaps the melancholy feelings stem from our knowledge of the events which took place there. That said, it is a most unusual layby in many respects!

Dorney Reach, for me, feels very different. It is just a pleasant suburb of Slough with no bad vibes. Incidentally, are you certain that the locked gates are the actual spot where the Morris Minor entered the cornfield? It's very close to the neighbouring houses which must have been there in 1961. I believe a more likely place is further north, towards the A4 but before the M4 bridge. This point would be about right for the 'noise from neighbouring cottages, possibly putting a bike away.' There is no entry into the cornfield at this point, but there could well have been in 1961. I think the locked gates are something to do with the local water, I've seen vans coming and going.

Also of possible bearing as to how the gunman arrived at the cornfield, on the opposite of the road is a rambler's footpath leading off in the direction of Slough. I don't know if this was there in 1961 but I would be very surprised if it wasn't, and this would be the obvious route the gunman took, assuming he arrived on foot. If the cornfield entry is that little bit further north as I believe it to have been, he would just have popped out of the footpath and seen the Morris Minor right infront of him. He could even have spotted it as he walked along the footpath. It was still light enough at that time.

Regards,
Steve


Hi Steve.

So far as I can make out, the entrance (there are several) to the cornfield is where the water pumping-station (or whatever it is) stands today. I can't be 100% certain, but I think I'm right. Valerie Storie says the Morris was parked well inside the cornfield, which of course you can't do now at this entrance; she also had the impression (don't know how) that the man who tapped on the car's window had come from across the cornfield. I've always had the strange feeling that Hanratty arrived there by car - can't say why, just a feeling, that's all.

Cheers,

Graham


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#147 25th May 2007, 09:35 PM
larue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
This is where I still think that there is something just below the surface of this case


hi all

Graham, i agree with you on this. i too think there was more to this case than meets the eye. i am aboot half way through paul foot's book, and though i am mindful he was pro hanratty, he is certainly giving me more food for thought.

perhaps you, and the other people who are posting in this thread can educate me regarding a few thoughts that have occured to me?

23 August 1961, approx 3.30am was the date of the crime: kidnap, murder, rape and attempted murder.

4 December 1961 - Birth control pills become available on the National Health Service. The Pill was introduced in Britain in 1961 for married women only. therefore valerie storie as a single girl could not have been on the pill at the time of the crime. for michael gregsten's semen to have been deposited on her underwear, means a condom could not have been used. that would be a very foolhardy practice for a married man with children, and his mistress. [one would have thought precautions would have been taken, as condoms were not difficult to obtain]

the mepo report stated two semen types were found. second ab deposit was 'assumed' to be from michael gregsten. was this assumption ever investigated and proven?

if a condom was used, it would be most unlikely for michael gregsten's semen to come into contact with the underwear. that being the case, where did the blood type ab semen deposit come from?

the second ab deposit was not found on the underwear sample used for dna test. therefore the dna test was limited to the tiny portion of underwear remaining, not suprising therfore, no trace of the second ab deposit was found.

given, the appeal prosecution did not entirely reject the possibility of cross-contamination, does this imply that cross contamination theory is tenable?

was it ever established if valerie storie and michael gregsten had had sex on the night of the murder, if not, where did the second semen deposit come from?

the appeal prosecution's stance seemed to be, hanratty's dna is present, but no other, therefore he was guilty. but the mepo report stated otherwise...

call me stupid, but i still cannot accept the dna analysis at face value. if the whole garment had been available for testing, then three dna's would have been found, valerie storie's, the blood type ab, and the blood type o.

if samples of hanratty's had been found in several places, or over a significant area, that i think i could accept without reservation, but just a tiny fragment of dna on a small fragment of material?... i dunno. it makes my brain hurt

best regards

larue

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Last edited by larue : 25th May 2007 at 09:47 PM.


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#148 25th May 2007, 09:51 PM
Graham
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Hi Larue.

I see your point, but I think we're well into the realm of speculation here. I also think that, because of the stone-cold fact that Valerie Storie was paralysed as a result of being shot, she may well have been spared the kind of penetrating cross-examination we might expect today. And she is still alive. I can say no more, except to say that three DNA's were found on her underwear. Not an area I care to pursue, to be honest, as I hope you will understand.

Cheers,

Graham


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#149 25th May 2007, 09:59 PM
larue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Not an area I care to pursue, to be honest, as I hope you will understand.


hi Graham

yeah, i guess i do.

didn't know three dna's were found though. i guess it's true you do learn something every day...

regards

larue


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#150 25th May 2007, 11:52 PM
strunt
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Hanratty: It's still a mystery

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The Hanratty case, which even now remains a subject for debate despite the passing of many years and the Appeal hearing of 2002 with its emphasis on the DNA evidence, justifies its description by Bob Woffinden as the most fascinating case which there has ever been in British criminal history. This is because of the direct conflicts of evidence with no seeming reconciliation possible in many areas of the case. Although people cannot be blamed for jumping to the conclusion that Hanratty was guilty if they have heard of the DNA evidence but know little else about the case, the notion that somehow all other evidence must be ignored offends one's natural sense of justice and can surely only be accepted if in fact the DNA does turn out to prove conclusively ( as the Court of Appeal said ) that Hanratty must have been guilty.

Does it prove that? I do not think so. The type of testing used is known as PCR ( Polymerase Chain Reaction ) and the Americans call it molecular photocopying. It depends on massive magnification of the tiniest samples and it is quite obvious that such a technique must be highly vulnerable to cross-contamination since one may have begun with the smallest amount imaginable. Nowadays detailed regulatuions require the most stringent handling procedures ( commonly as many as 50 different pairs of rubber gloves may apparently have to be used ) and it is stating the obvious to point out ( as the Criminal Cases Review Commission did point out but the Court of Appeal chose not to take any notice ) that in Hanratty ( where of course nobody in the 1960s had ever heard of forensic DNA save for a handful of very specialist scientists) procedures corresponding to the requirements of he regulations were not followed in any way. As there was plenty of mixing of items and indeed a broken and empty vial was found with the items when it was known that a vial of liquid containing a wash of Hanratty's trousers had been kept at the time, it is impossible to see how the evidential integrity of the crime samples can be relied upon. The Court of Appeal casually assumed that this must have been some other vial ( what? ) but made no comment upon what then was supposed to have become of the vial from the wash in question. Nor is the point about no other person's DNA being found a valid one. The knickers were not preserved as an entire garment but only a tiny fragment remained. Nobody can possibly know what was on the rest of the item. Furthermore, if the source of the DNA on the handkerchief was the mucus staining why did the usual RFLP method not pick this up. The fact is that PCR can pick up sweat and Hanratty appears to have handled that handkerchief during his evidence. It has always been agreed he sweated a good deal in the witness box. Surely the most that can be said about the DNA is that one possible explanation of it is that Hanratty was guilty but another is that it got there during storage and handling after the crime. It is equivocal.

What about some of the other points in the case then? Surely the following are of significance:
1. The Rhyl witnesses did not emerge, as Leonard Miller seems to think, as a result of much later campaigning. On the contrary, as soon as Hanratty put forward the Rhyl account they made statements to the police which Scotland Yard did not disclose to the defence or the court, or even to the prosecution for that matter.
2. The cumulative weight to be attached to the alibi evidence surely cannot be casually brushed aside as Mr Miller thinks. It is obvious from the statements that there was a man answering Hanratty's description going round Rhyl asking for digs, seeking to sell stolen goods in the street etc. at the key time. It would be something of a coincidence if some other person whe happended by chance to answer his description had been doing these things in a small town in relation to which he happened to invent a lying story saying he was doing them in relation to exactly the same time. Nor has any such other person ever come forward.
3. One of Hanratty's regular crimes was stealing cars. Shortly before his arrest he stole, for example, a Jaguar to order from a London street and drove it up to the north West. It seems far fetched that he would not know how to drive a Morris Minor.
4. The only two days when Mrs Dinwoodie ( the Liverpol sweetshop lady ) was in the shop in that period were the Monday and the Tuesday, which was the day of the murder. The prosecution's own evidence shows Hanratty was in London all day on the Monday ( indeed, this is how he was tied to the Vienna Hotel ) and so the Tuesday is the only day when he could have gone into the shop. As his own barrister pointed out, he would have needed a helicopter to get to Dorney Reach in time.
5. The prosecution case was that there was not and never had been any connection between Hanratty and Alphon. The first time the Vienna Hotel was mentioned in relation to the case was when the police had Alphon reported to them as behaving strangely in another hotel a few days after the murder. His alibi given was the Vienna Hotel. If you "stop the film" at that point and ask what would be the odds against the real murderer ( who could have been anybody and could have been anywhere on the night before the murder ) just happening to turn out to be a person who had spent the night before the murder in the same hotel as the one which Alphon gave as his alibi for the murder night they must be millions to one. And yet the prosecution's case rested on this absurd possibility.
6. One of the very first things Hanratty did when arrested was to volunteer forensic samples. As an experienced crook, a strange thing for him to do if guilty as he must have known he could not be forced to provide the samples.

I still find it impossible to come to any other conclusion save that the case in Hanratty's favour is far more coherent and compelling than the case against him. Of course, different readers tend to attach more or less weight to different aspects of a case like this but I fail to see how any real;istic examination of the whole case can avoid the point that, in the light of all that is known both at the time of trial and since, as soon as you attempt to put together a scenario for how Hanratty spent that crucial week in August 1961 which includes his carrying out of that murder it is not very long before you begin to run into grave improbabilities!

[larue]

Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel
James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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#151 26th May 2007, 05:24 PM
Steve
Inspector Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hampshire, England
Posts: 138




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Hello Larue

Most of what we know about the events in the cornfield are from Valerie Storie’s own account. She says she and Mike were in the front of the car facing one another and just talking when the gunman approached. It is possible that Miss Storie told her own version of these events and perhaps held something back. People’s attitudes to relationships were totally different then and no-one could blame her for possibly wanting her own version to be known. Personally I would rather not know the truth than subject Miss Storie to any further embarrassment or public scrutiny; she has had more than her fair share over the years.

A few years ago the known facts made it very possible to believe that Hanratty was innocent, that Alphon was really the A6 killer. The Foot and Woffinden books made it easy to subscribe to that belief. Paul Foot went to his grave unshaken in his belief that Hanratty was innocent. However, since the DNA testing, there can be doubt as to the identity of the killer. That said, who knows what future scientific developments might shake today’s total certainty that Hanratty was guilty.

My own belief in Hanratty’s guilt doesn’t come from the DNA, it comes from Valerie Storie. The interviews she gave to The Mail on Sunday in 2002 and for the Hanratty The Whole Truth film are more compelling than any book. Her certainty is a powerful persuader, and ideas that she might have been misguided in her certainty have to be wrong. If an innocent man had been executed she would have had to have lived in the knowledge that the actual killer was still around and could have knocked on her door at any time.

Regards,
Steve


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#152 26th May 2007, 07:23 PM
Steve
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I meant to say there can be NO doubt as to the identity of the killer - too much white wine. Sorry!


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#153 26th May 2007, 07:41 PM
Graham
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Steve,

The chances that an inncocent man was executed are several million to one against. Not only was the Hanratty Case about murder (and rape and attempted murder, although these charges were never brought against Hanratty), it was also about morality, politics and the position of 'The Establishment' in Britain at the time.

Valerie Storie's account of what happened in that car from Dorney Reach to Deadman's Hill cannot be argued against - it's as simple as that. I do not believe that she made a wrong ID of Hanratty.The man in the car murdered her boy-friend, raped her, and attempted to murder her. I honestly and truly cannot accept that under such circumstances she made a mistake with her identification.

What I want to know is why Hanratty did it, and also was there any form of pre-planning, conspiracy, call it what you will. I've said it before, and will say it again, that Hanratty's QC Mr Michael Sherrard described this case as 'sagging with coincidences', and he was right.

Cheers,

Graham


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#154 26th May 2007, 08:33 PM
Steve
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Graham

With the information we have today it is 100% certain that a guilty man was executed. The police held back the rape and attempted murder charges – if Hanratty had been acquitted in Bedford he would have faced one of the other charges – but the case against Hanratty presented to the court was about murder. The morality, politics and position of ‘The Establishment’ in Britain at the time was the viewpoint of Alphon – prompted almost certainly by Jean Justice & Co.

You are quite right, we cannot argue with Valerie’s account of what happened in the car – there is no other account – and she certainly made the correct identification when Hanratty was eventually paraded in front of her and when she astutely asked for the parade members to speak. She knew the voice at once having listened to it for several hours during her ordeal.

Why Hanratty did it? Armed robbery was a logical progression for him, there was no pre-planning. He simply got on a train at Paddington and found himself in Maidenhead, Slough or most likely got off the train at Taplow station, a short walk from the cornfield and very near the Old Station Inn. Michael Sherrard’s ‘sagging with coincidences’ was a thought-out phrase. He fought Hanratty’s corner in court and believed that he should not have been found guilty on the evidence presented, but ultimately felt relieved when the DNA evidence showed that there had been no miscarriage of justice.

Life is full of coincidences and the pro-Hanratty camp built a campaign on the coincidences surrounding this case.

All of that said, it is still absolutely fascinating!

Regards
Steve


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#155 26th May 2007, 09:17 PM
Graham
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Hi Steve,

Nevertheless - and I respect what you say - the Hanratty Case attracted many, many people who saw an opportunity to attack 'The Establishment'.
Don't forget that Alphon was the police's original suspect, and once he was cleared he launched himself not only into an attack upon the police but also, as it were, put two fingers up to the Establishment of the day, aided and abetted by the likes of Jean Justice and Jeremy Fox, neither of whom in reality cared a hoot if Hanratty lived or died. Alphon, to a very large extent, was their stooge, and he was astute enough to realise this, and cashed in on it. The Hanratty Case happened during a watershed in British class politics - for the first time ever the Establishment was being challenged by what many saw as a revolutionary tendency - for example, 'Private Eye' magazine and 'That Was The Week That Was'. It was a bandwagon upon which the anti-Establisment tendency was only too willing to climb. Police corruption, snobbery, the last final attempt by the Establishment to assert itself upon British life - it was all there.

Personally, I never was 'pro-Hanratty'. To me, it was plainly obvious that the police had the right man for Gregsten's murder, but to ensure that no mistakes were made in securing his conviction, the police resorted to tactics which, in this day and age, would never be tolerated (or at least, one hopes they wouldn't).

I still cannot convince myself that Hanratty just kind of wandered into that cornfield at that particular time. If he did, then he was an even greater loser than history has painted him - the first time out with a gun, and he picks upon two ordinary people in a cheap car? When he himself had told his friends that he was 'going for the big time'? If that Morris Minor had been a Rolls-Royce, then perhaps his actions might have been completely understandable. But if, as he told his friends, 'burglary was all played out', why risk his neck with people who drove a cheap, ordinary car? Indeed, Sherrard has since gone on record as being relieved that the verdict was correct - but as a defence lawyer, what else can he say?

No more now than 20, 30 years ago am I able to say why Hanratty did what he did - I can only conclude that he wanted to be, for one night of his sad life, a 'big man'. Yet though he was no Einstein, he was no fool either - he made his living from crime. Did he really think that two people in a Morris Minor would be the source of greater gain than breaking into some posh house in Stanmore? I just can't see it.

Something is there, Steve. Just what it is, I don't know.

Cheers,

Graham


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#156 26th May 2007, 10:28 PM
Stephen Thomas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
What I want to know is why Hanratty did it, and also was there any form of pre-planning, conspiracy, call it what you will. I've said it before, and will say it again, that Hanratty's QC Mr Michael Sherrard described this case as 'sagging with coincidences', and he was right.



Hi Graham

There was a documentary 4 or 5 years back on UK television that, if my memory serves me right, suggested a very plausible reason for a suited and booted small time London crook with a gun being in that place and at that time targetting that particular couple.

A small point not mentioned so far here is that Ms Storey asked all the men in an identity parade to say 'threppence' (ie 3 pence) and Hanratty was the only one who pronounced it in the specifically London 'working class' way as 'freppence' or 'fruppence' as the murderer had. Then as now there would be a million people in London who pronounced the word like that.


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#157 27th May 2007, 10:12 AM
Steve
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Hello Strunt

Yes, you are right, the Hanratty case remains a subject of debate. You only have to look at recent postings in this thread to see that we are still debating the various elements of the case. I am impressed by your knowledge of forensic DNA and I do believe there is a possibility that future scientific developments might shed a new light on things. Much of what you say can only have come from scientific journals so I assume you are a scientist. If so your words carry much weight. However, as things stand, we have to accept that Hanratty was guilty. All the coincidences you mention are just coincidences. Nobody over the last 45 years has come forward with 100% certain evidence that Hanratty could not have been in the cornfield on the night of 22nd August.

In Rhyl, the ‘selling stolen goods in the street’ account is highly dubious, Hanratty was not known for peddling his ‘hot property’ so publicly and as a professional thief he really would have known better.

The point about having to be shown how to drive the Morris Minor is not as contentious as many people believe. There was much less standardisation of vehicle controls in those days and it is perfectly plausible that someone getting into a Morris Minor possibly for the first time would need time to learn where the controls were, and to fumble with the clutch when driving off. As a car thief stealing cars to order it’s unlikely he would have been asked to steal a Morris Minor, Jaguars were more in demand. In fact the place where the crime came to its conclusion would point more towards the gunman being a driver than being a non-driver. Someone unable to drive a car would hardly have made Gregsten park the car in the middle of nowhere knowing that he would have a long walk away from the crime scene with an increased possibility of getting caught.

I agree with you that there is an awful lot of circumstantial evidence pointing away from Hanratty. There is also a lot of evidence pointing towards Alphon, and he did actually confess to the murder, albeit in a foreign country, deliberately mis-stating the facts and safe in the knowledge that no-one in the police believed for one minute that he was guilty.

Long may the debate continue!

Regards,
Steve


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#158 27th May 2007, 04:45 PM
larue
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hi Strunt

brilliant post. especially re the dna evidence. i have to say i agree with you

regards

larue


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#159 27th May 2007, 07:52 PM
larue
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hi Steve
(i posted on this earlier, but it seems to have gone awol)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
if Hanratty had been acquitted in Bedford he would have faced one of the other charges


this is an extremely interesting point. i know little of the law, but i personally doubt that this would have happened. if hanratty had been cleared of gregsten's murder, it would effectively mean he was proven not to be present at the crime scene, so he could hardly be then charged with rape, as it would be tantamount to saying that somebody else commited the murder, then ran away, then hanratty appeared on the scene and commited the rape and attempted murder. i doubt the dpp would have supported that proposition.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
If an innocent man had been executed she would have had to have lived in the knowledge that the actual killer was still around and could have knocked on her door at any time.


another interesting point. however, consider for a moment, if you will, if hanratty was innocent, then this scenario would have actually existed. the killer would have been relatively safe, as long as he kept quiet, and did nothing to bring attention to himself, like another attempt on miss storie's life

i would be very interested to hear other opinions on these points.

regards

larue


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#160 28th May 2007, 03:27 PM
Steve
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Hello Larue

I think it’s common practice for the police to ‘hold in reserve’ any possible additional charges. This is in case of an acquittal, there is then the possibility of bringing the defendant back to court to face one of the reserve charges. You are of course quite right, if Hanratty had been cleared of the Gregsten murder it would seem difficult to then make a case that he was actually at the crime scene. However, if that had actually happened we might have had an even more interesting situation than the Hanratty case actually gives us at the moment. For one thing he would not have been executed; it was because he shot Gregsten that he faced the death penalty. I think I’m right in saying that if he had poisoned him the sentence would have been life imprisonment! Also relevant is that his conviction was almost entirely due to Valerie Storie’s identification and subsequent testimony. Had the killer killed her he would not have been convicted. In which case Alphon might well have been tried, found guilty and executed. Yet another fascinating scenario – I wonder if there would have been so much controversy lasting so many years if it had been Alphon rather than Hanratty?

On the second point, if Hanratty had been cleared perhaps the police would have gone back to talk to Alphon. However, for most of the last 45 years, in many people’s eyes, there has been a real possibility that Hanratty was innocent – only DNA has now put that out of the question. Although of course Strunt has interesting views on the DNA. So only Valerie Storie’s own total belief that justice had been done must have put that possible fear out of her mind.

It is also worth mentioning that whatever the motive or non-motive there was for the attack on Gregsten and Storie, it ceased to exist the second that Gregsten died. If Alphon had been the killer he would have had no reason to re-visit Miss Storie and as you say would have been foolish to do so.

Regards
Steve

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#161 28th May 2007, 04:16 PM
Graham
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Hi all.

Interesting posts here.

Strunt, good stuff on the DNA. There was a documentary about this case some time ago and they went into some detail about DNA and the technique of amplification. Although there is, I guess, a very remote chance that cross-contamination could have occurred, I think the results were reliable, especially on the hankie on which only one male DNA was found.

Regarding the Rhyl Alibi, Hanratty suddenly introduced this half way through his trial, dropping his original Liverpool Alibi presumably because he realised it wasn't sustainable. He took his defence totally by surprise, and they sent a private investigator to Rhyl immediately to check on what Hanratty was claiming and to try and find witnesses. The problem was that it appears that Hanratty may very well have visited Rhyl, and may very well have stayed in a place that resembled Mrs Jones' B&B, but it wasn't during the critical period; remember, he'd been to Rhyl before and met Terry Evans, which the latter confirmed. In addition, Mrs Jones' performance as a witness was poor, and she was torn to shreds by the prosecution. If my memory is correct, the only Rhyl witness deemed at all reliable in subsequent investigation was Christopher Larman, but I believe he came forward only after the appeal (I may be wrong - I don't have my books nearby as I write this).

The sole charge against Hanratty was that of the murder of Gregsten; had he been acquitted of this, he'd have walked away a free man, as a 'not guilty' verdict would have effectively placed him elsewhere other than the Morris Minor on the critical night. And you're right about poisoning, Steve: in those days murder by shooting carried an automatic death-penalty. Had Hanratty been cleared, it's hard to see how the police could have pursued Alphon again, as Valerie Storie had failed to pick him out on i.d. parade, and the only viable evidence against Hanratty was one of identification.

Steve, because Hanratty had nicked a few cars doesn't make him an Alonso (or a Stirling Moss, to keep the period in context!). He was by all accounts an erratic driver - his cousin said so, Carole France said so, his car had rear-end damage, and he also crashed the car he hired in Ireland. And with regard to non-standardisation of controls, the majority of small-to-medium size British cars in those days had a stick-shift 4-speed box. You also have to bear in mind that Hanratty must have been in a state of trauma himself after killing Gregsten.

Alphon was a police suspect before the Vienna House Hotel featured in their investigations. He'd been 'shopped', so to speak, by the manager of the Alexandra Court Hotel for his odd behaviour, as a direct result of the police appeal to hotels, B&B's, etc. Alphon only publicly confessed to the A6 crime after Hanratty's execution, when he knew he was safe from prosecution, yet like a certain other person who features elsewhere on these boards he retracted and altered his confession on a number of occasions, to the point where no-one any longer took him seriously. However, I still get the niggling little feeling that something was going on between Alphon, Nudds and Charles France - what it might have been I have no idea. Conspiracy theorists used to claim that Alphon was the killer and that Hanratty was neatly set up to take the rap, but I don't think that was the case.

I am also interested in why Charles France committed suicide - was it purely because he had sheltered Hanratty in his house and the weight of guilt was too much? He left a large amount of letters and other documentary evidence, most of which has never been seen to this day, which in itself rather suggests that the police saw some good reason to withhold it.

Finally, in the TV documentary mentioned above, that was also the last time Valerie Storie agreed to be interviewed, and she certainly didn't come over as a person who had anything to hide - far from it, in fact. I think, in truth, she is the one person in the entire case who's word can be trusted completely.

Keep the posts coming, guys!

Graham.

PS: Larue, as a former owner of a split-screen Minor, how much do you reckon a 1952 model in running order would be worth today?


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#162 29th May 2007, 09:08 PM
larue
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hi all

this thread just keeps getting better, you guys are brilliant.

i have just finished paul foot's book. i found the section aboot alphon just baffling. confession/retraction etc etc. i can't figure what the guy was up to!

i loved the comment by counsel, that alphon could not have been the driver because, wait for it, he did not have a driving licence!!!!! [there's a legal mind for you!]

mind you, i must say i was very impressed by some of hanratty's answers to swanwick during his cross examination, as indicated by extracts from the trial transcript:

‘Hanratty, do you always hold your right eyebrow higher than your left?’ To which Hanratty answered, after a
moment’s hesitation: ‘I do not know, Sir, because I cannot see it.’

later, hanratty was getting riled about questions relating to his past offenses, and retorted:

Sir, I must put this point quite clear. I ain’t a man the court approved of as of good character, but I am not a murderer. This is a murder trial, not a housebreaking trial. (Vol. XIV, pp. 50,51.)

i thought well done you.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
PS: Larue, as a former owner of a split-screen Minor, how much do you reckon a 1952 model in running order would be worth today?


Graham, get the kleenex ready to dry your eyes, mogs from 1962 to 1971 sell from 950 to 2000gbp, sometimes more according to condition, and a 1949 like mine is up for 2950gbp!!!! figures courtesy of autotrader. makes you wanna weep don't it. and no road tax either!!!

best regards

larue

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Last edited by larue : 29th May 2007 at 09:19 PM.


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#163 29th May 2007, 09:42 PM
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hi Graham


Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
You also have to bear in mind that Hanratty must have been in a state of trauma himself after killing Gregsten.



i guess he must have been, but not enough to prevent him from being 'able' to commit rape afterwards, if you understand my meaning.

best regards

larue


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#164 30th May 2007, 07:27 AM
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Hello Larue

You make an interesting point with this last post. I would guess it needs a particular mental sickness to do what the killer did, with a dead body in the car and the amount of blood there must have been. Hanratty has never come across as this particular kind of sicko.

Regards,
Steve


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#165 30th May 2007, 08:44 AM
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I'll admit to having a blind spot when it comes to Hanratty, i hate any cause-celebre.

Are folk on here suggesting Alphon is guilty? Or is it simply a ploy to establish reasonable doubt concerning Hanratty?


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#166 30th May 2007, 10:42 AM
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Hello Jason

There can be no doubt with the information that we have today, in particular the DNA evidence, that Hanratty was the A6 murderer. In which case Alphon was not guilty of the crime. However, if you study this particular crime as many of the people posting on this thread have done, you will see that there are many areas of conflicting evidence and coincidences, all of which make this a particularly fascinating case.

Regards,
Steve


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#167 30th May 2007, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Hello Jason

There can be no doubt with the information that we have today, in particular the DNA evidence, that Hanratty was the A6 murderer. In which case Alphon was not guilty of the crime. However, if you study this particular crime as many of the people posting on this thread have done, you will see that there are many areas of conflicting evidence and coincidences, all of which make this a particularly fascinating case.

Regards,
Steve



Fair enough Steve. I have little doubt that Hanratty is guilty.

What irks me is how much of this "conflicting" evidence came up months or years after the actual killing, when the Hanratty bandwagon had started to become popular.


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#168 30th May 2007, 12:05 PM
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Hello Jason

I know what you mean, and it is certainly true that a lot of ‘muddying of the waters’ went on in the 1960’s & 1970’s by the campaigners. However, there was a lot of ambiguity & controversy right from the beginning.

For instance, on the morning that Gregsten’s body was found, the very first documentary evidence, namely notes made at the scene of the crime by John Kerr as he spoke to Valerie Storie whilst she was lying on the ground, were ‘confiscated’ by a police officer and vanished without trace. (True, these notes did turn up at the trial, but John Kerr always maintained that neither the notes nor the handwriting was his.)

Also, later the same day, a police superintendent interviewed for the television news at the scene of the crime, seemed confused about the killer’s description. He fumbled over his words when mentioning the killer’s eyes:

‘Deep-set eyes, not very deep-set …’ The eyes were described as being brown whilst Hanratty’s eyes were blue.

Furthermore, newspapers incorrectly reported the crime as a ’Hitchhike Murder.’

This was just in the first few hours after the crime!

Regards,
Steve


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#169 30th May 2007, 02:00 PM
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Steve, interesting about the notes controversy.

As far as the "deep-set" and "hitch-hike muder" are concerened this may be much ado about nothing. It can be seen as simply failures of communication during the early stages of an investigation.


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#170 30th May 2007, 02:21 PM
Steve
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Communication Failure

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Hello Jason

The first two points were certainly failures of communication – disappointing lack of professionalism on the part of the police. The ’Hitchhike Murder’ came about as a result of Valerie purportedly saying ‘we picked a man up near Slough’ though she later repudiated this. Again, a failure of communication somewhere along the line.

This was just in the first few hours after the crime!

Regards,
Steve

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#181 25th June 2007, 04:29 PM
Graham
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Hi Jimarilyn.

Good post and lots of good points. I don't lay claim to being any kind of expert on the Hanratty Case, but I've read a lot about it and have to confess that I actually remember it...

To take your points one at a time:

1] Agreed. Violent crime was not apparently in Hanratty's character. But that really proves nothing.

2] Of course his family thought he was innocent - or at least wanted him to be innocent. His father had bent over backwards to try and make Jim follow the straight and narrow, but had failed.

3] Agreed. The car was gone over with the proverbial fine-tooth comb and no forensics were found. Which I have to say is odd and something I have never really understood. However, it must also be said that had the police really wanted to stitch Hanratty up, planting some evidence (i.e., hairs) in the car would have been an ideal opportunity.

4] There is no hard evidence that Hanratty was a good driver. Carole France and also his cousin both said he wasn't very good, and drove erratically, and also he had a smash in his hired car when he was in Ireland. And his Sunbeam car had damage to its rear as if he'd backed it into something. I know quite a few people who I think are hopeless drivers, but they still get about all right.

5] Agreed. Never fully explained.

6] Correct.

7] The 'sweetshop alibi' was weak, and Hanratty's defence couldn't rely on it. There was a lot of confusion as to both the date, and whether in fact it really was Hanratty who visited the shop. The PC who investigated showed only one photo - Hanratty's - to the people who worked there.

8] Grace Jones' evidence was a shambles, and torn apart by the prosecution. None of the other Rhyl witnesses were to be relied on, even after years of investigating and questioning, and it is highly likely that these people may well have been recalling Hanratty from his previous visit to Rhyl.

9] All the Liverpool telegram proved was that he was in Liverpool 2 days after the murder - which of course he was. It does NOT prove that he wasn't at Dorney Reach on the evening of the 22nd.

10] Wrong. The cartridge cases were found at the Vienna Hotel on 11th September, 19 days after the murder.

11] Good question. Could it be that Alphon was actually implicated in the murder, and took fright when it happened? Does this imply some kind of conspiracy?

12] Agreed - but with some reservations.

13] Alphon was an accomplished gambler and long after the murder he boasted that he'd had a number of big wins at the dogs, but usually spent his winnings very quickly.

14] Mary Lanz did NOT testify that Alphon had been in the Old Station Inn on the evening of the murder. She did however state that she was convinced that she had seen Alphon in the pub on a previous occasion. She also knew Gregsten and Valerie Storie as frequent visitors.

15] He did confess, and retracted his confessions with impunity.

16] Agreed. That was because of his erratic behaviour at the Alexandra Court Hotel shortly after the murder and the realisation that he resembled the Identikit. He also had a newspaper cutting about the A6 murder in his suitcase....Alphon was lucky not to have been hanged instead of Hanratty.

17] Agreed.

18] Maybe he simply went into denial, as I've suggested before. This is Leonard Miller's theory too. I'm not a psychologist, so I can't comment any further.

19] The police seized a lot of France's writings after he killed himself, and they have never been released. The real reason why he committed suicide will probably never be known, but one possibility is that he was the person who obtained the gun for Hanratty.

20] Correct. It seems likely that a man who might have been Alphon also broke into another house.


I can't disagree that there is something that still stinks about this case, even if one accepts Hanratty's guilt. Michael Sherrard said at the trial that the case was riddled with coincidences, and he was right. I'm not one to see conspiracies where none might exist, but I have to say that the more I think about the Hanratty Case the less I am convinced that he acted completely alone.

Cheers,

Graham.


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#182 25th June 2007, 06:33 PM
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Hi Graham,

Thanks for your reply to my post. You're correct when you say the cartridge cases were found in the Vienna Hotel 18 days after the murder ( which seems more than a little suspicious), what I was trying to convey was that these cases must have ( unless they were planted there later ) been present in that room prior to the day of the murder (Wednesday 23rd August) as Hanratty checked out of that Hotel either on the Monday (when he signed in as J.Ryan ) or the Tuesday. He was never seen in the Hotel on the 23rd.

Also, one would think that if he had been the real murderer he would have gone to great lengths to have disposed of ( or destroyed ) the murder weapon and not leave it under the back seat of a bus where it would be vulnerable to discovery.

Re. the murder weapon, was it ever revealed who registered or purchased this gun ? There must have been strict regulations in force at that time in the U.K regarding the purchase of firearms.

Also I can't believe the murderer happened upon Michael Gregsten and Valerie Storie by sheer chance in a cornfield in late August. I feel he must have been following them and monitoring their movements. I don't believe it was a random murder and they just happened to be the unlucky victims of a madman. The vast majority of murders have a motive. If I had to offer a plausible scenario for this crime the following one would not I believe be beyond the realms of possibility :

Long suffering wife Janet Gregsten had become totally exasperated with the 3 year affair her husband had been having with his much younger lover Valerie Storie. She could no longer suffer the humiliation of being a cheated upon wife so looked for a way of ending her husband's affair for good. She would (through a 3rd party) arrange for the murder of Gregsten and Storie and conceal any involvement on her part. This 3rd party would then make contact with some criminal elements and devise a plan for getting rid of the lovers. These criminals would be handsomely rewarded. A sacrificial patsy would be readily found and the blame laid at his innocent door.

Fanciful and simplistic ? Maybe. But 99% of all murders it is said have a motive. And one of the most powerful motives is jealousy and humiliation.

regards

jimarilyn


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#183 25th June 2007, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimarilyn

And one of the most powerful motives is jealousy and humiliation.




This reminded me of the Spanish Inquistion. "Our greatest weapon is humiliation and jealousy. TWO of our greatest weapons are humiliation, jealousy, and dogged determination.. THREE of our greatest weapons, and so on..."

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#184 25th June 2007, 08:35 PM
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Hi Baron

Ok maybe it should have read " 2 of the most powerful motives''. Quite petty of you to nit-pick don't you think ?


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#185 25th June 2007, 08:39 PM
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No nitpicking here. I make all sorts of little errors. I was referring to the Monty Python sketch about the Spanish Inquisition wherein that sort of sentence was used. I just found it similar and amusing. If you haven't seen the sketch and don't know what I'm talking about, you may not understand why it amuses me. Apologies if you thought I was picking on you. I wasn't.

Cheers,

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#186 25th June 2007, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baron
No nitpicking here. I make all sorts of little errors. I was referring to the Monty Python sketch about the Spanish Inquisition wherein that sort of sentence was used. I just found it similar and amusing. If you haven't seen the sketch and don't know what I'm talking about, you may not understand why it amuses me. Apologies if you thought I was picking on you. I wasn't.

Cheers,

Mike


Hi Mike.

It's the comfy chair for you....

Cheers,

Graham


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#187 25th June 2007, 09:01 PM
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Hi Jimarilyn.

Regarding the finding of the gun, Charles France deposed that Hanratty once remarked to him that a good place to drop dodgy stuff is under the back seat of a bus....where the gun was found. It would be easy to extend this to France passing this information to Alphon, if one believes that Alphon was the murderer, in an attempt to set up Hanratty. But as the gun was wrapped in a handkerchief on which was deposited Hanratty's DNA (and no-one else's) it would seem virtually beyond doubt that Hanratty himself placed the gun there.

I can't remember ever reading anything about the gun, its serial numbers, and possible provenance. That's actually a very good point.

Like you, I can't believe that Hanratty just happened on Gregsten and Storie in the cornfield that evening. It doesn't add up. Hanratty had told a friend that he wanted to get into 'the big time' as a hold-up man, but did he really think that holding up a courting couple in an ordinary little Morris Minor was going to be pay-day big-time for him? Not even Hanratty was that stupid, in my opinion. Of course, one of the earliest proposed motives for the abduction and murder was the affair between Gregsten and Storie, and it was suggested by more than one writer that there was a Central Figure behind the whole thing, someone who wanted to break up the affair and was prepared to go to great lengths, including financial, to acheive it. If you've read Leonard Miller you'll know the name of the Central Figure, who may still be alive. However, if Janet Gregsten was behind the plot, she did a darned good cover-up job and apparently put on an act worthy of an Oscar, as not even Paul Foot, who was very much a Hanratty supporter, could find one single reason to suspect her. Yet unless Hanratty really did just turn up by chance at the cornfield, someone must have sent him there or caused him to be there. Did he pick the wrong couple, perhaps? On the other hand Hanratty might recently have obtained the gun and decided to be Mr Big for once, and chose a quiet, unpopulated area to do it. Don't think we'll ever know.

Cheers,

Graham


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#188 25th June 2007, 09:06 PM
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Hi Jimarilyn,
Along with The Craig/Bentley case, and the Ruth Ellis saga , i find the Hanratty case a fascinating subject,
I agree with you on many points.
If one had a murder weapon that was 'Hot' one would not hide it under the back seat of a bus [internally] where it would sooner or later, more sooner be discovered.
I would for exsample have taken a cruise down the Thames and dumped it.
Also .
Your point about the killer just happening to appear on the scene with a loaded gun plus plenty of ammunition on his person is crucial.
This man who according to Valerie wanted to be called jim. and was content to just sit in the back saying statements like 'I have not shot anyone before' the gun is so big 'I feel like a cowboy'.
my question is 'If this was simply a case of a wanted man needing a car ride why not simply order the couple out of the car and lay face down , while he drove it away.
The rape scenerio also does not ring true,
The killer had just shot a man twice in the head at close range , which would have resulted in terrible mutalation, yet we are led to believe that he suddenly had a sexual urge for rape.
Not impossible, however why not order Valerie out of the car and rape her on the space offered exterior, surely better then performing on the back seat of a morris minor.
The whole case does not ring true.
But there again neither does all the evidence once combined in our beloved Jtr.
Regards Richard.


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#189 26th June 2007, 07:47 AM
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"Like you, I can't believe that Hanratty just happened on Gregsten and Storie in the cornfield that evening. It doesn't add up"

Graham,

Unless it was a preplanned attack specifically on Gregsten and Storie someone must have "just happened on" the couple that night. It may as well have been Hanratty as anyone else.


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#190 26th June 2007, 03:40 PM
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Hi Graham

No-Wolffinden did not track down the man and indeed I believe no one has ever-including Foot and Justice. Again I would reiterate if he looked like Hanratty then genuine mistake of Valerie under pressure. If he looked nothing like Hanratty then ???

Acott was tackled about it by Sherrard at Trial and was vague as per transcript (and when it suited him) ?and Wolffinden has only the Doctor at the hospital i.d. report which differs considerably to Acott's. It is all tantalising. We do not know what colour eyes/hair etc for certainty this 'identified' man had

This a first 'positive' but wrong id parade has been underplayed by all writers, pro and against and the final Court of Appeal could have produced a photo or something to silence the defence as well as the DNA. But they did not. There is little information to get hold onto ie the man who was identified.

Agai I suggest it is common sense that if the man looked different to Hanratty then it must beg questions. Sherrard at trial should have insisted that the man be produced at trial for all to see- I do not believe he knew what he looked like and thus reluctant because of this. The Rhyl alibi and other issues I think occupied them more producing not a serious cross examination of Acott over this particular aspect but I suggest it is very very significant. If the prosecution had been confident the man looked like Hanratty they would have produced him to show Valerie's consistency in identification. True she was the only person left alive who could identify the killer. However a first serious error in a parade must again logically produce doubts about subsequent identifications, no matter how sure. If she was not sure about the first parade she could have bailed out instead of a very positive but erroneous identification.

A photo/picture of him would reveal all and confirm or seriously undermine Valeries identification record in a non-arguable way. The Doctor says he was heavy build, Acott say's not! Valerie never mentioned anywhere about a heavy built killer! So we must wonder. Incidentally Wolffinden says he was English and emigrated to Australia.

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#191 26th June 2007, 04:31 PM
caz
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Hi All,

I agree with Richard about the foolishness of hiding your murder weapon on a London bus, wrapped in your own hankie, when chucking it in the Thames minus the hankie would have been just as easy, with far less chance of it ever being found, never mind tied to you as the killer.

However, any theory that involves someone framing the hankie's owner has to take the DNA evidence into account. And I don't see how Hanratty's DNA - and only his - could have got on the hankie purely as a result of him handling this exhibit in court, as one poster suggested, because he would not have been the only one to have handled it.

But if someone wanting to frame Hanratty had any sense, they would at least have used one of his own hankies as a better-than-nothing alternative to having his fingerprints on the weapon itself, and they would have worn gloves, even before anyone had heard of DNA evidence. And I'm wondering if you'd then get a positive result that pointed only to the man who had used the hankie for its original purpose and was able to identify it as his own, ie Hanratty. It seems incredible that before the hankie could be tied to him by DNA he would not simply deny it was his, if he had indeed used it to wrap up the gun.

There must be a huge flaw in this because it seems a bit too simple.

I think I would feel a whole lot easier if it was no coincidence that Alphon and Hanratty stayed at the same hotel (or was it a guest house?). I do wonder if they could both have been on the same promise of big money and one got there first.

Love,

Caz
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(For the person who informed me that Mike is far too young to have written the diary in 1955: no hired gorillas were harmed during the telling of this joke either.)


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Last edited by caz : 26th June 2007 at 04:44 PM.


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#192 26th June 2007, 08:36 PM
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Hi Caz!

Welcome to the thread in which there's not too much doubt as to who's the guilty man, but rather why he done gone did it...

With the best will in the world Hanratty was not Brain of Britain. He was nicked for at least one burglary because he refused to wear gloves and left his fingerprints behind. He also fenced a lot of his proceeds via a woman who was well-known to the police for her dodgy dealings. So if someone handed him a hankie in court and said, "Is this yours?" then he'd have confirmed that it was, if it was. And who, seriously, could actually recognise one of their own hankies...? This is why the prosecution has a relatively easy time with him - he couldn't think quickly enough to tell a lie.

With regard to any relationship between Hanratty and Alphon, at least one commentator was convinced that they knew each other. Paul Foot almost drove himself nuts trying to prove a link between the two men, but never could. I think that if one really tries to penetrate this case, then one must take as a working hypothesis that they did know each other. Both used The Rehearsal Club in Soho, but there is no witness statement that they were ever seen there together. Problem we have now is that nearly all the principle characters in this case, with the exception of Valerie Storie, are dead; there is also the other slight problem that there is a boatload of evidence that has never been released by the police and is now probably lost for ever. Amongst this evidence are the letters and notes left by Charles France - one or two were released to the press, but the majority have disappeared.

Out of interest, just about everyone who's ever written about the Hanratty Case has considered some sort of conspiracy, and almost without exception this has been dismissed. I'm not so sure....

The Vienna Hotel is variously described as a 'cheap hotel', a doss-house, and a place much frequented by gays - in 1961 homosexuality between men being a crime. When I happened by to have a look, about 20 years ago I think, it was private apartments.

JBB,

Lawyer I am not - is it permissable for counsel to bring to court 'invited', i.e., someone not picked out by a witness, members of an identity-parade? I'd have said that once an ID parade - which is a legal process - is complete, then anyone not identified by a witness cannot be recalled, so to speak. Does anyone know what the situation is?

Cheers,

Graham


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#193 27th June 2007, 02:00 AM
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"Valerie's Story"

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RE Whatever allegedly happened during the approximate 5 or 6 hours that the murderer spent with Gregsten and Storie in the Morris Minor we have only Valerie's word for. I find it difficult to believe that she only saw the murderer's face for a couple of seconds when she said he had "staring, large icy blue saucer like eyes". This statement of hers came on 31st August and conflicts with her statement on the morning of the murder when she described the murderer as having brown eyes. How on earth can pale blue eyes look brown. Maybe she was coached ( or coaxed ) by Acott in the intervening 8 days. I find her a very unreliable witness especially when you consider she picked out an innocent man in the first identification parade. When all is said and done it was "Valerie's Story" (taken as gospel by so many apparently) that condemned James Hanratty to the gallows. Something stinks to high heaven about this whole case. With Hanratty's execution, surely the case was closed in the eyes of the Establishment, so why were exhibits ( like Valerie Storie's
knickers and Hanratty's handkerchief ) stored away in police files ? Was someone anticipating the scientific discovery 23 years later (in 1985) of DNA profiling ? Why did the initial DNA tests in 1997 prove inconclusive, yet 2 or 3 years later DNA tests on the same materials prove conclusive ? What was the history of these exhibits ( and who had access to them ) between 1962 and 2001 ? Hanratty's family always maintained that James was stitched up by Acott and Oxford. They must have had just cause for suspecting this.


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#194 27th June 2007, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimarilyn
I find her a very unreliable witness especially when you consider she picked out an innocent man in the first identification parade. When all is said and done it was "Valerie's Story" (taken as gospel by so many apparently) that condemned James Hanratty to the gallows. Something stinks to high heaven about this whole case. With Hanratty's execution, surely the case was closed in the eyes of the Establishment, so why were exhibits ( like Valerie Storie's
knickers and Hanratty's handkerchief ) stored away in police files ? Was someone anticipating the scientific discovery 23 years later (in 1985) of DNA profiling ? Why did the initial DNA tests in 1997 prove inconclusive, yet 2 or 3 years later DNA tests on the same materials prove conclusive ? What was the history of these exhibits ( and who had access to them ) between 1962 and 2001 ? Hanratty's family always maintained that James was stitched up by Acott and Oxford. They must have had just cause for suspecting this.


Would you have preferred all evidence to have been destroyed?

Im very surprised you asked why 2 DNA tests were needed. The first test was conducted using DNA from Hanrattys family members. As far as im lead to believe these tests indicated Hanrattys guilt. However, a more accurate test was possible using Hanratty's own DNA. This was why his body was exhumed, resulting in the 2nd DNA test.

As you have studied the case for over a decade i suspect you know all of this anyway.

Considering Valerie Storie witnessed her lover being murdered, then herself subjected to rape at gunpoint you seem to lack much sympathy for her. Are you Paul Foot haunting us from the grave?


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#195 27th June 2007, 12:11 PM
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Hi Jason

In reply to your post I did not say I have studied this case for over a decade. I said I have been interested and intrigued by it for about 10 years. You seem to think I lack any sympathy for Valerie Storie. I can assure you I do not. I am merely saying that in my opinion she is not a very reliable witness as is proved by all of the contradictory statements she made regarding this gruesome case.
It's patently obvious to me (from your posts) the prejudice you feel against the alleged murderer James Hanratty. Perhaps you should try to cultivate an open mind on the case. Murder conspiracies and other conspiracies happen all the time and have done throughout history.
Perhaps I'm the ghost of James Hanratty not Paul Foot who's come back to haunt you....." there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of...........


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#196 27th June 2007, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham

With the best will in the world Hanratty was not Brain of Britain. He was nicked for at least one burglary because he refused to wear gloves and left his fingerprints behind. He also fenced a lot of his proceeds via a woman who was well-known to the police for her dodgy dealings. So if someone handed him a hankie in court and said, "Is this yours?" then he'd have confirmed that it was, if it was. And who, seriously, could actually recognise one of their own hankies...? This is why the prosecution has a relatively easy time with him - he couldn't think quickly enough to tell a lie.




Fair enough, Graham. But if Hanratty had the brains to wrap the murder weapon in a hankie and hide it on a bus, he knew why he was doing it - to try and get away with murder. So it still strikes me as rather unlikely that on seeing a hankie in court and being asked if it belonged to him, he would not have had the wit to say "How should I know?" - unless he didn't fully appreciate the role it had played for some reason and thought it would do no harm to say it was his, whether he could have known for sure or not.

Here's another little coincidence that might tickle you. I was reading Yesterday's Liverpool - A Pictorial History 1857 to 1957 by Ian Boumphrey last night in bed (I know, how sad is that?) when I came across a reference to Tarleton Street, so I looked it up, as well as Carleton, in my Liverpool A-Z just for jolly. No sign of a Carleton, and only one Carlton near the city centre. But do you know where Tarleton Street is? It's sandwiched right between Whitechapel and Church Alley, which was where the young James Maybrick lived.

So we have a nice link between two of the most infamous 'miscarriage of justice' controversies.

Love,

Caz
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#197 27th June 2007, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimarilyn
Hi Jason

In reply to your post I did not say I have studied this case for over a decade. I said I have been interested and intrigued by it for about 10 years. You seem to think I lack any sympathy for Valerie Storie. I can assure you I do not. I am merely saying that in my opinion she is not a very reliable witness as is proved by all of the contradictory statements she made regarding this gruesome case.
It's patently obvious to me (from your posts) the prejudice you feel against the alleged murderer James Hanratty. Perhaps you should try to cultivate an open mind on the case. Murder conspiracies and other conspiracies happen all the time and have done throughout history.
Perhaps I'm the ghost of James Hanratty not Paul Foot who's come back to haunt you....." there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of...........


I will ask you again then.

For someone who has been intrigued and interested in the Hanratty case for a decade, why the need for you to ask why there was a second DNA test? I found the answer after less than one minute of googling.

Many of these contradictory statements by Storie would have been made at a time when she was still in shock. I suggest very few of us would be clear headed after such an ordeal.

I will cultivate an open mind as long as it doesn't result in me blaming everything on the Establishment and wacky conspiracy theories.


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#198 27th June 2007, 02:37 PM
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Hi

Noted that no one has commented on my thread about the discrepancy in Acott's description of the first id parade victim misidentified and the statements of Valerie.

The case and the defence focused (and has since on Rhyl) which has taken the light from little details that are provable and raise questions if Valerie is to be believed and as said before 'you take all or none if it' as credible.

She mentions the killer kept giving accurate checks on his watch. Hanratty by everyones admittance was special needs and the defence gave him mathematical as well as written tests which he was hopeless at. In teaching special needs, I can assure you that telling the time is very difficult-not the hour but the minutes. The killer as per Valerie said as one example "2.50".
All have focused on his poor spelling etc. But could he tell the time accurately?

I believe the 'gun handerkchief; was Hanratty's with his DNA on. That does not mean he fired the gun! It would not have been hard to get. Remember who used to pack his suitcases and his washing and that persons link with the case, would have been easy to get. She did not stand up well at the two cross examinations at all.

It is just not feasible that a person was just walking around what was then not a populated area in the hope of holding up a car etc. If he had wanted to do that for that purpose then why go to Taplow? The coincidence of picking a car with a couple in in with history is remarkable! Never once has anyone produced any evidence pro or against to indentify how anyone got there to Taplow- Hanratty, Alphon or whomever. That suggests that they did not go on public transport and if not then that begs many questions!!


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#199 27th June 2007, 02:59 PM
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Hi

Continuing the mystery of the first id parade.

Either the misidentified man looked like Hanratty or he did not. The evidence of Acott in cross examination by Sherrard did not sound like a masterpiece of confident rebuttal to Sherrard. The description is very different to Hanratty'a build, appearance etc.

The 'in shock' argument of Valerie does not stand up. The Doctors all testified she was ok and the pro Hanratty guilty lobby argue and she uses her words that she has remembered the murderer as Hanratty as she was there, no one else alive was. Yet a first id parade resulted in an unknown man of seemingly very difference appearance as being chosen as the killer.
I fear that we shall never be able to resolve this with a picture of Michael Allen to compare. Another strange aspect of this case.

Additionally in this first id parade none of the men were asked to speak compared to the Hanratty id parade. I wonder why not by Valerie?

You cannot have it both ways-either she was accurate in her identification evidence thoroughly or not. Not bits of it.

Yet she made a mistake-a choice of a man who allegedly appears completely different to anyone in any of the i.d./photo fit descriptions etc of Valerie's,a mistake that if Alphon had been picked would have resulted probably in him being hanged.


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#200 27th June 2007, 04:12 PM
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"She mentions the killer kept giving accurate checks on his watch. Hanratty by everyones admittance was special needs and the defence gave him mathematical as well as written tests which he was hopeless at. In teaching special needs, I can assure you that telling the time is very difficult-not the hour but the minutes. The killer as per Valerie said as one example "2.50"."

JBB

So this special needs criminal could hardly tell the time but could (according to his defenders) drive as car with skill. Just how special needs was he? It seems Hanratty is cunning when you wish him to be, dumb when you require him to be.

Your statement about all special needs pupils telling the time seems very sweeping.

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#201 27th June 2007, 07:16 PM
Graham
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Hi JBB.

Regarding the ID parade of 24 September at Guy's Hospital, as I understand them the salient points are as follows:

1] Valerie was passed as fit by Dr Rennie.

2] The police picked up volunteers (9, I think) from a club in Waterloo. Alphon was taken to the hospital on his own.

3] Everyone on the parade who was wearing a tie was asked to remove it, as Alphon had no tie (because he was in custody and would have been relieved of any possible means of suicide).

4] Valerie did not pick Alphon and was (as I recall) distressed that she might have made a mistake. Alphon himself said he was sweating...I should think he was, too. After Alphon was released and his photo was published, Valerie said that the man she picked out did look like Alphon.

5] I don't have any books with me as I write this, but I now recall that the man Valerie did pick was a foreign sailor. I also recall that Bob Woffinden traced this man but can't remember if he described his looks.

6] As we all know, at the next ID parade after his arrest, Hanratty was the man picked out by Valerie.

Don't forget that at the time of this first ID parade Hanratty was unknown to the police and obviously not a suspect.

I think also that there was some criticism of Hanratty's defence team regarding the second ID parade, as his hair stuck out like a sore thumb (a 'carrot in a bunch of bananas' I think is how Graham Swanwick described it).

Cheers,

Graham


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#202 27th June 2007, 07:21 PM
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Hi Jason.

Reading the works by various of Hanratty's supporters, it does seem to me that they vary his personality and degree of intelligence to suit a particular argument or situation. You're absolutely correct in this. By his own admission, and according to the testimony of his own family, he was a drifter, someone with a very low attention-span, and a chancer. About the only thing in his life that held his interest was crime - and he wasn't very good at that.

Cheers,

Graham


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#203 28th June 2007, 11:56 AM
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Hi

The special needs as it would be termed nowadays is not debatable. The prosecution examined his background and in prison his letters had to be wrote for him. Driving a car is a different skill from telling the time. It requires different neurological skills to be technical.

Character traits are not the same as neurological deficencies.

Many travelling people (true romanys) cannot write at all even in 2007 yet drive all over and shop etc and function in business. One way they do that is by drawings-I kid ye not as I teach these people. If they want a chicken from the supermarket they draw a list with it on!! I coach an athlete who runs for G.B. who has just got his degree yet is severely dyslexic and cannot spell at all. So people can function extremely well.

None-the less the killer was being accurate with his watch as per Valerie's testimony. There are many many litlle details over the case which raise quesions such as this and are not consistent. When I get more time I will list them. I belive that Sherrard had enough on the plate at Trial time with the Rhyl alibi/Dinwoodie etc and those inconsistencies and since then Alphon issue has muddied the waters from actually looking at probable strange inconsistencies at testimony given at the time. Also political considerations factions ie anti establishment a la Foot/Justice have also over time muddied the waters with looking at the little facts.

Some work against Hanratty some for.
For example against Hanratty no one from the bus from Crosby to Rhyl or even a late witness years later ever produced. He would have been longer on that bus then walking the Rhyl streets looking for lodgers with chance encounters.

For example the killer according to Valerie at parts of the journey was naming signs. Hanratty could hardly read-he may have remembered these from past events true but they seem too up to date at that time it was happening.

The timings of the actual killing site are strange. What happened from 1430 Hours to 1600 Hours(witness saw it speeding down the road at that time|)
I know the rape and the shooting but 90 minutes.

Miller is wrong in suggesting the layby was a pre determined stop site for Hanratty. Valeries own testimony reveals that they stopped several times and were disturbed before descending to the layby.


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#204 29th June 2007, 01:45 PM
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To those people with closed minds ( you'll know who you are by your blatant anti-Hanratty bias ) may I suggest you re-visit Paul Foot's excellent 1971 eye-opener of a book "Who killed Hanratty ?" instead of coming up with your own incomplete and half remembered facts about the case. This man studied and researched this murder case exhaustively and with a fine tooth comb. I would take much of what Leonard Miller has to say with a large pinch of salt ( his short 154 page "Shadows of Deadman's Hill" ). Miller still believes that Oswald was the lone gunman in the Kennedy assassination ! Enough said.


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#205 29th June 2007, 02:42 PM
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"The special needs as it would be termed nowadays is not debatable."

JBB

How "special" his special needs were is debatable. Special needs is an umbrella term covering a whole range of disabilities. Saying he is special needs therefore could hardly tell the time just doesnt cut it in my opinion.


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#206 30th June 2007, 11:12 AM
Steve
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Tarleton Street Coincidence

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Quote:
Originally Posted by caz
Fair enough, Graham. But if Hanratty had the brains to wrap the murder weapon in a hankie and hide it on a bus, he knew why he was doing it - to try and get away with murder. So it still strikes me as rather unlikely that on seeing a hankie in court and being asked if it belonged to him, he would not have had the wit to say "How should I know?" - unless he didn't fully appreciate the role it had played for some reason and thought it would do no harm to say it was his, whether he could have known for sure or not.

Here's another little coincidence that might tickle you. I was reading Yesterday's Liverpool - A Pictorial History 1857 to 1957 by Ian Boumphrey last night in bed (I know, how sad is that?) when I came across a reference to Tarleton Street, so I looked it up, as well as Carleton, in my Liverpool A-Z just for jolly. No sign of a Carleton, and only one Carlton near the city centre. But do you know where Tarleton Street is? It's sandwiched right between Whitechapel and Church Alley, which was where the young James Maybrick lived.

So we have a nice link between two of the most infamous 'miscarriage of justice' controversies.

Love,

Caz
X


Hello Caz

Here is another interesting coincidence. Tarleton Street is quite an unusual name in this country, I can't find many other Tarleton Streets. However, one of the towns that does own a Tarleton Street is Rhyl in North Wales. Coincidence or Not?

Another point on Tarleton Street is that it is located to the south of Lime Street railway station and if Hanratty set off looking for it in the direction of Scotland Road he was going in completely the wrong direction. Scotland Road is north of Lime Street. You would have expected him to first ask directions before he left the railway station, or perhaps just outside the station. Anyone local would have pointed him in the opposite direction to Scotland Road.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#207 1st July 2007, 07:18 PM
Steve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimarilyn
To those people with closed minds ( you'll know who you are by your blatant anti-Hanratty bias ) may I suggest you re-visit Paul Foot's excellent 1971 eye-opener of a book "Who killed Hanratty ?" instead of coming up with your own incomplete and half remembered facts about the case. This man studied and researched this murder case exhaustively and with a fine tooth comb. I would take much of what Leonard Miller has to say with a large pinch of salt ( his short 154 page "Shadows of Deadman's Hill" ). Miller still believes that Oswald was the lone gunman in the Kennedy assassination ! Enough said.


Hello Jimarilyn

Paul Foot's book is a fascinating read. There is more detail in his book than any of the others. He had total belief in JH's innocence, to the point of disputing the DNA evidence. 'There is something wrong with the science' is what he said not long before he died.

It is really not a matter of having a closed mind, it is a matter of looking at the evidence. As it stands at this point in time the DNA evidence shows conclusively that Hanratty was guilty of the crime. Way before the DNA a jury found him guilty, the police eventually believed him to be guilty and Valerie Storie has never been anything other than totally convinced Hanratty was guilty.

There is no disputing the controversial coincidences that really do abound, many of which will never be satisfactorily explained. Also, there has never been any proof that someone other than Hanratty committed the crime. The evidence that we have available today is that Hanratty was guilty. Everything else is pure speculation.

I really don't believe that any true student of this case has a 'blatant anti-Hanratty bias' as you suggest in your post. I hope that we all keep an open mind, but without further evidence beyond the DNA there really cannot be any question as to who committed these crimes.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#208 1st July 2007, 07:56 PM
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Hi Steve.

I appreciated your post and agree with everything you said in it. I found Jimarilyn's post unnecessarily aggressive and provocative in a manner which has torn apart other threads on these boards, but which so far hasn't tainted the Hanratty thread.

Regarding Tarleton Street, Steve is also dead right in saying that Hanratty was going in totally the opposite direction when he claimed to have been looking for it and called in at the sweetshop for directions. I would have to say that the name 'Tarleton Street' impinged itself in his mind during a visit to Rhyl, and that he produced this name when concocting his spurious Liverpool alibi.

Caz,

The James Hanratty Case is no longer considered a miscarriage of justice, but your discovery of the location of Liverpool's Tarleton Street does somewhat tickle the fancy...

...and finally. I would like the police to release, if it still exists, all of the material written by Charles France in the days leading up to his suicide, and also a little more information concerning William Ewer.

Cheers,

Graham


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#209 1st July 2007, 08:15 PM
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Hi Graham

Thank you. I too would like to know more on the Dixie France front; there is no smoke without fire, and he really does smoulder as far as this story is concerned. As for William Ewer .... now you are really lighting the blue touch paper !!!

Kind regards,
Steve


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#210 1st July 2007, 08:29 PM
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Hi Steve.

The kind-of 'official' Dixie France line is (or was) that he did himself in because of the weight of guilt about harbouring a murderer in his house. There is no doubt that France and Hanratty were very good mates, and that the latter had a good deal of respect for the former. Yet to all intents and purposes, they were just petty crooks....but how did Hanratty obtain his gun?

I don't know if William Ewer is still alive....Leonard Miller thought it unlikely.

Cheers,

Graham

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#211 1st July 2007, 08:36 PM
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Hi Graham

Dixie didn't provide the gun, but I think he played a part in its disposal. Hanratty had no real respect for France, not at least towards the end, and yes, they were both petty crooks. The difference is that Hanratty at least had a trade, if you can describe thieving as a trade. William Ewer is no longer alive - there is an argument that he took at least some of this story to the grave with him.

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#212 1st July 2007, 08:54 PM
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Hi Steve.

Wow-ee, this is getting interesting....

Who do you think obtained the gun for Hanratty? I know he had this story of a man he knew who sold him the gun, but that man (whose name is known but I'm damned if I can recall it) strenuously denied it - as he would. For a long time I've been under the impression that France had pointed Hanratty in the right direction.

Hanratty had reasons to be wary of France, not the least of which was the allegation that he, Hanratty, had had a sexual affair with his daughter. No big deal in 2007, but potential trouble, big-time, in 1961.

Are you absolutely sure that Ewer is dead, Steve? Have you documentary proof of this?

Cheers,

Graham


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#213 2nd July 2007, 10:12 PM
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Hello Graham

Don’t panic!

France didn’t get the gun for Hanratty, look at the known facts: Hanratty didn’t need anyone’s help to get a gun, by his own admission they were easy to come by though he always denied ever owning one. The man you are thinking of was Donald Slack (also known as Don Fisher) who was Hanratty’s fence and who had a ‘gun’ conversation with Hanratty, but nothing was every proved, and Hanratty certainly never told a story of anyone selling him gun. A further point is that France appeared as a prosecution witness and something would almost certainly have been made of it had France obtained the gun, albeit with France ensured of immunity from any charges of being an accessory before and after the fact.

I don’t think Hanratty had reason to be wary of France, but I think he disposed of the gun for Hanratty the day after the murder. Hanratty seems to have taken care when disposing of incriminating evidence so it is unlikely that he would have dumped the gun on a 36A bus where he knew it would be found. And why leave a handkerchief with it? It is also unlikely, with his known movements, that he had the opportunity to put the gun on the bus. He really would have had to have gone out of his way to do so. Remember, it was the day before the murder that he left the Vienna hotel allegedly heading in the direction of a 36A bus. France may have been the only person Hanratty believed he could trust to dispose of the gun, possibly believing France would have tossed it into the Thames.

Also, the cartridge case evidence is suspicious. The room would have been cleaned the morning after Hanratty stayed there, Alphon was possibly in the room briefly and there was another guest, an Indian, who used the room before the cartridge cases were found. I know this last part has been questioned, but it still stretches belief that the cases remained undisturbed on the chair and unfound for all that time.

One plausible scenario is that Hanratty asked Dixie to dispose of the gun, Dixie then took the opportunity to incriminate Hanratty because he wished to end Hanratty’s friendship with his daughter, or possibly even because he believed the A6 murderer to be Hanratty. Certainly France’s attitude towards Hanratty changed at this time, the police probably learned about Hanratty from Dixie France and it was certainly France who recounted the bus conversation to the police. Also, France was well aware that Hanratty had been at the Vienna hotel, if he had possession of the gun and the ammunition briefly after the murder it’s possible that he could have also planted the empty cartridge cases in room 24.

Kind regards
Steve


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#214 4th July 2007, 09:07 PM
larue
Police Constable Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 27




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hi all

i have just noticed my post from yesterday has gone awol. does anyone else keep 'losing' posts?


atb

larue


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#215 4th July 2007, 09:15 PM
Steve
Inspector Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hampshire, England
Posts: 138




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Hello Larue

Not lost any so far, but then I don't make many posts. (Bet this one gets lost!)


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#216 4th July 2007, 09:40 PM
jason_connachan
Chief Inspector Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 500




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Wouldnt Hanratty asking someone to get rid of the gun be far riskier than doing it himself?

Assuming for a moment it was the murder weapon, Hanratty is as good as admitting his guilt to a second party.


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#217 4th July 2007, 10:04 PM
Steve
Inspector Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hampshire, England
Posts: 138




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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_connachan
Wouldnt Hanratty asking someone to get rid of the gun be far riskier than doing it himself?

Assuming for a moment it was the murder weapon, Hanratty is as good as admitting his guilt to a second party.


Hi Jason

Very good point. Hanratty possibly trusted France at that time, was more concerned with establishing his alibi than disposing of the gun personally and perhaps Hanratty and France had that level of a trusting relationship, again at that time. Hanratty had already disclosed to France his method of disposing of unwanted stolen items, in the back seat of a bus. France was in a tricky situation when all this came to light. If his involvement included handing the gun at any time he could have faced charges as an accessory to the crime.

It was definitely the murder weapon, ballistics proved that conclusively.

Kind regards,
steve


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#218 4th July 2007, 10:58 PM
larue
Police Constable Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 27




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hi all

this is the gist of my last post, the one that went missing.

briefly revisiting the question of identification,
it seems to me that VS's identification of the perpetrator was very suspect.
the first id parade [with alphon] seems to have not been carried out according to proceedure, as VS was not told she could aks the men to speak, and according to keith simpson's book, she picked out a spanish sailor, [though other sources say he was raf.] surely it would have been better to have said something like 'i don't see him here', rather than to make a false id, on the strength of which the prime suspect walked away scott free!

the second 'carrot in the bunch of bananas' id parade is equally interesting, as again, according to keith simpson VS spent aboot twenty minutes going up and down the lineup before picking hanratty, but that was only after she heard him speak!!! hanratty was reputedly the only man in the lineup with the so-called "cockney" accent. so it was hardly a visual identification at all, rather an aural id. this is especially interesting as VS admitted to acott a month after the crime, that her memory of the man's face was fading, and she was doubtful she could make an id.

whist moving house in the last few weeks, i have re-discovered many, oh so many videocassettes, including one which
contains a documentary on the a6 murder... guess what i am going to do next...


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#219 5th July 2007, 06:22 PM
Steve
Inspector Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hampshire, England
Posts: 138




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Hello Larue

I agree with you that the ID parades were not good on many fronts, and Valerie Storie certainly made a mistake in picking out an innocent man at the first parade. However, she was very young, very ill and had only recently experienced a truly traumatic experience. Some of the shortcomings of the ID parades have to be balanced against Miss Storie's own situation at the time.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#220 5th July 2007, 08:48 PM
commander Bond
Inspector Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: UK, England, SE LONDON/KENT
Posts: 105




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I have to agree with the above poster - not reliable...
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