a6 murder

[Natalie Severn]

That'd be difficult seeing as Alphon was asleep in the Vienna Hotel at the time.

I fail to see how anyone can describe the evidence against Alphon to be stronger than the evidence against Hanratty, therefore anyone claiming the conviction against Hanratty should be overturned cannot sensibly claim there is a case for Alphon to answer.

KR,
Vic.

....... only "asleep" or /"at the hotel', Vic, according to one out of the three statements Nudds made and one of two written hotel records !
BUt Vic,the difference is that Alphon claimed he had a case to answer---him along with several others to be exact----but ofcourse that was only when he knew he could no longer be executed.He had dodged about during earlier confessions to obfuscate and protect himself.

[Graham]

Hi Norma,

been out, no time to check through my cuttings, but I do remember the Sunday Express article. But I also remember seeing another much later article which I referred to in my earlier post. Will search for it when I can.

Graham

[Victor]

....... only "asleep" or /"at the hotel', Vic, according to one out of the three statements Nudds made and one of two written hotel records !

Hi Norma,

2 out of 3.

BUt Vic,the difference is that Alphon claimed he had a case to answer---him along with several others to be exact----but ofcourse that was only when he knew he could no longer be executed.He had dodged about during earlier confessions to obfuscate and protect himself.

Yes he did, just like John Humble, and hundreds of Jack the Ripper letter writers.

Please a burning question that everyone who believes the Alphon confessions dodges, or obfuscates...
How do you tell the difference between dodging\obfuscating and not knowing?

Every one of Alphon's confessions are inaccurate to some degree - he was playing Foot and the media to make a quick buck.

KR,
Vic.

[NickB]

Father Hulme from Bedford and Father Keogh who had met Hanratty in Brixton, told Hanratty"s parent"s after the execution, and repeated to Fenner Brockway before the House of Commons debate in 1963 that Hanratty far from confessing to the murder, had protested his innocence to the very end.

If each time someone had been hanged for a crime without confessing to it the priests announced that there had been no confession, you could deduce that whenever they did not make an announcement there had been a confession. This is why priests are supposed to neither confirm nor deny.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

2 out of 3.


Yes he did, just like John Humble, and hundreds of Jack the Ripper letter writers.

Please a burning question that everyone who believes the Alphon confessions dodges, or obfuscates...
How do you tell the difference between dodging\obfuscating and not knowing?

Every one of Alphon's confessions are inaccurate to some degree - he was playing Foot and the media to make a quick buck.

KR,
Vic.

Hi Vic,
Alphon is in there somewhere, in my opinion.The Alexandra Court Hotel where he went on the Wednesday evening was the place guests were apparently bothered about him behaving oddly,but remember Alphon himself says he was "shopped".The trail,then leads to the Vienna Hotel where Nudds is sat like some big spider in the centre of the web.He has only been out of jail two and a half weeks.He needs money.He has been using his contacts to get a few small "jobs".
Question is - was he working for someone? Its possible Alphon was "helping out" ---getting the gear to someone-retrieving it-whatever.He may not have carried out the "plan" for the central figure he talks about.So who else was involved? I have already stated that I dont believe Hanratty had anything to do with any of it, that he was just a patsy--in my view.
Nudds could have been orchestrating the Vienna side of things.Nudds could have arranged for the gun and cartridges to be placed on the 36A bus.He was also in a prime position to fiddle with the books and to drop cartridge cases onto a chair in Room 24.

Neither Alphon nor Hanratty need to have had anything to do with it but it seems to me more likely that Alphon did have something to do with it because the police first contacted the Vienna Hotel as early on as 27th August because Alphon,it seems to me may well have been "shopped"at the Broadway House Hotel on that day,since everything went pear shaped,and it was this link of Alphon to the Vienna which set the police on his trail---,then on Hanratty"s..
But in fact some East End kid who nobody has ever heard of could have carried out the botched "job" on the A6----Alphon could just have been a go between making a few extra bucks.
Best

[RonIpstone]

Hello Norma or Natalie

Why should Nudds or Alphon, if either or both had been implicated in the A6 Murder, have wanted plod to suspect Hanratty? Why should they want to risk what happened, namely Acott and Oxford making Nudds move Alphon into Room 24?

If Nudds wanted to frame Hanratty why did he not tell the Old Bill that he recognised Ryan as Hanratty? All the evidence points to Nudds not knowing who Ryan was, and if he did not know who he was, why should he want to frame him?

Ron

[Natalie Severn]

[QUOTE]Why should Nudds or Alphon, if either or both had been implicated in the A6 Murder, have wanted plod to suspect Hanratty? Why should they want to risk what happened, namely Acott and Oxford making Nudds move Alphon into Room 24?[QUOTE]

What I suspect happened is that someone with links to the Vienna Hotel - Nudds seems the type just out of the nick and wanting bits of work ,had some connection with the passing of the gun and cartridges.It seems like Alphon to me because,as we know,it was Alphon who ,on the 27th August,ie 4 days after the murder,was questioned about the A6 murder after being taken from the Alexandra Court Hotel.So it was Alphon,not Hanratty who set the police on the trail of the Vienna Hotel----though notably nobody -not the police,not Nudds,not Mrs Snell,not Juliana Galves --nobody had found any cartridge cases in that hotel . Astonishing!That even though it was a London Hotel in the height of the Summer,we are told only Hanratty and one other person,for one night only ,had used Room 24---between August 22nd and August 11th when the cartridge cases were found by Crocker and Galves.Room 24 was therefore a very big empty room with several beds in it. Very odd.Morover,Juliana Galves insisted that in point of fact,neither Hanratty nor anybody else had used Room 24 ,not since August 16th right up to September 11th.

So now just for a minute or two ---forget all about Hanratty---just add to all this the panic and hastily altered plans after the central figure and others discovered the s**t everybody was in-what to do where to go etc.
Hanratty wasnt involved.It didnt matter at that point where he was,what he was doing ,whether or not he called himself Ryan.
Take it from there......

[jimarilyn]

That'd be difficult seeing as Alphon was asleep in the Vienna Hotel at the time.

Unless of course he was an insomniac.

Anyhow, although he was itching for a 'kip' that night in Bedford I don't think he managed any.

[Victor]

What beatings were these Victor ?

Didn't some thugs beat him up, just before he was pronounced "mentally defective"?

KR,
Vic.

[NickB]

Didn't some thugs beat him up, just before he was pronounced "mentally defective"?

KR,
Vic.

I think you're combining two separate incidents:

July 1952 - while in a job loading logs onto lorries and delivering them to London with the driver, and sleeping in the cab of the lorry, he collapses in Brighton and is found unconscious and suffering from exposure.

July 1961 - in Liverpool leaving a cafe he is approached by two men who ask him to buy them a meal. After an altercation the assailants are disturbed and make off when some people appear from around the corner.

[Victor]

I think you're combining two separate incidents:

Cheers for that Nick.

[Victor]

Alphon is in there somewhere, in my opinion.The Alexandra Court Hotel where he went on the Wednesday evening was the place guests were apparently bothered about him behaving oddly,but remember Alphon himself says he was "shopped".

Hi Norma,

What evidence do you have for "Alphon is in there somewhere"? He gets "shopped" by other guests at the Alexandria for behaving strangely, but he was one of many. The trail leads back to the Vienna becasue that's where he stayed on the night of the murder, and the police conscientiously investigated him, but it was only when the cartridge cases from the murder weapon were found in the Vienna that the connection was made and the police started hunting for him.

If Alhpon had been involved in a conspiracy then why would he stay in the same hotel as the "patsy"? That's stupid.

The trail,then leads to the Vienna Hotel where Nudds is sat like some big spider in the centre of the web.He has only been out of jail two and a half weeks.He needs money.He has been using his contacts to get a few small "jobs".

Regarding Nudds, who I maintain is a minor witness, how is he supposed to set up this elaborate scheme when he's only been free for a couple of weeks, and during that time has managed to secure a job, and actually do it for a while, and why if he's using his contacts and doing small "jobs" does he need to steal from the hotel which leads to him being fired?

and it was this link of Alphon to the Vienna which set the police on his trail---,then on Hanratty"s..

It was the cartridge cases that caused the police to be interested in the Vienna, and put them on Hanratty's trail. The fact that one of the men reportedly acting strangely happened to stay there the night of the murder is not that bizarre a coincidence - it's no more strange than Hanratty and Alphon having the same blood type.

KR,
Vic.

[Limehouse]

Hi Norma,

It was the cartridge cases that caused the police to be interested in the Vienna, and put them on Hanratty's trail. The fact that one of the men reportedly acting strangely happened to stay there the night of the murder is not that bizarre a coincidence - it's no more strange than Hanratty and Alphon having the same blood type.
KR,
Vic.

Are you kidding? Type O is the most common blood type in the Kingdom!

But you are right about one thing - it was the cartridge cases that put the police on the trail of (eventually) Hanratty. And I absolutely refuse to believe that those cartridges were left there by Hanratty. Nothing anyone could say to me would convince me that he left them there - even if he rose out of the grave and confessed the murder to me himself - I feel sure he would be saying he never left those cartridges in that hotel.

[RonIpstone]

And I absolutely refuse to believe that those cartridges were left there by Hanratty. Nothing anyone could say to me would convince me that he left them there - even if he rose out of the grave and confessed the murder to me himself - I feel sure he would be saying he never left those cartridges in that hotel.

Hanratty presumably did not leave the cartridge cases deliberately behind in Room 24 of the Vienna Hotel when he left that Tuesday morning to go on his murderous rampage through the Home Counties. If he left them there accidentally or unintentionally then he would have been unaware that he had done so.

[Limehouse]

Hanratty presumably did not leave the cartridge cases deliberately behind in Room 24 of the Vienna Hotel when he left that Tuesday morning to go on his murderous rampage through the Home Counties. If he left them there accidentally or unintentionally then he would have been unaware that he had done so.

I would like someone from your camp to explain to me how two cartridge cases - with no fringer prints on them at all - are left behind in a hotel room and not discovered for three weeks.

Why two cases? How many cartridges would it have taken to load the gun? What happened to the other cases? Did the 'killer' carefully discard the rest but carelessly left two behind?

Oh no - wait a moment - we are supposed to connect Nudd's statement that 'Ryan returned to his room after checking out' with the cartridge cases aren't we? Of course! He returned to the room to incriminate himself!

We have already heard evidence - from the trial - that the chair in room 24 was moved when the bedding was changed following Hanratty's departure. We also have evidence that one of the cartridges 'rolled off the chair' when it was tipped forward during Crocker's inspection. SoI say it again - Hanratty did not leave those cartridge cases in that room - or I am a banana.