a6 murder

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Vic,

Well you are definitely in the conspiracy arena now, because Hanratty wasn't known to be Ryan until after the cartridge cases were discovered, so for Nudds to have left them means that he was framing someone known only as "Ryan",

Well Hanratty used the name Ryan more often than Hanratty-- as he did at the Dry Cleaners etc.So,yes, maybe Nudds who himself used eleven different names ,did only know him as Ryan.

that doesn't explain how he got hold of 2 spent cartridge cases from the murder weapon

They could have been planted by almost anyone, Vic.
Apparently the Indian genteman was only in the room 24 for "about 5 mins" [while the cartridge cases were lying there undetected ] but Juliana Galves insisted nobody had actually slept in Room 24 since August 16th .[ Galves in her statement of 13 September 1961].

What I am really interested in is why Alphon went to the Vienna Hotel under the assumed name of Durrant and booked in for one night on 22nd August only.I know the Broadway House hotel sent him on,but to only stay one night at the Vienna, before moving on to the Alexandra Court Hotel again under the assumed name of Durrant[ and an assumed address] and to then be acting so strangely that he had people wondering whether he was the A6 murderer all seems.to me to be one "coincidence' too many!

[Victor]

They could have been planted by almost anyone, Vic.

Hi Norma,

You have completely missed the point - the cartridge cases were shown ballistically to have come from the murder weapon, so how did Nudds get hold of them if the gun was in police possession from Thursday 24 August 1961?

KR,
Vic.

[Black Rabbit]

Hi Norma,

You have completely missed the point - the cartridge cases were shown ballistically to have come from the murder weapon, so how did Nudds get hold of them if the gun was in police possession from Thursday 24 August 1961?

KR,
Vic.

These particular rounds could've been fired from the murder weapon any time prior to the murder and then planted in the Vienna Hotel after the murder.

[Victor]

These particular rounds could've been fired from the murder weapon any time prior to the murder and then planted in the Vienna Hotel after the murder.

Hi BR,

I agree with the first part, but then why couldn't they have fallen out of Hanratty's bag and down the back of the chair when he stayed in the bed next to the chair? They don't necessarily have to be "planted".

KR,
Vic.

[NickB]

If they were planted the most likely target was Alphon, who had been identified as Durrant and questioned by police in connection with the crime. Not someone who had checked in as ‘Ryan’ giving a false name and address and might never be traced.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

You have completely missed the point - the cartridge cases were shown ballistically to have come from the murder weapon, so how did Nudds get hold of them if the gun was in police possession from Thursday 24 August 1961?

KR,
Vic.

Sorry Vic,----I dont think so.I am questioning how they came to be there at all.
For a start they could have been found anywhere in that hotel from 23rd August onwards by Nudds.He could have held onto them after he found them .Once he knew the police were after Alphon he could have been involved in a blackmail scenario among rogues that we know nothing about. Or he could simply have hung onto them and planted them there on the day he was sacked to do the police a "favour", knowing they were desperate for a lead.
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Does anybody know what reason Alphon gave for going to stay at the Vienna Hotel for just one night on 22nd August under the false name of Durrant?

Maybe you had to give a false name if you were doing "business" with Nudds and his eleven different "aliases"?Maybe it was a bit like Ali Baba needing to know that "open sesame" was the code the needed to do business in the cave!

[Limehouse]

Hi Norma,

You have completely missed the point - the cartridge cases were shown ballistically to have come from the murder weapon, so how did Nudds get hold of them if the gun was in police possession from Thursday 24 August 1961?

KR,
Vic.

If the cartridges were linked ballistically to the murder weapon they must have been fired. Therefore - all the points reporduced below - wqhich I posted a few days ago - are very relevant:

Are these shells or cartridges we are talking about? If cartridges - then the contents are lead shot and the cartridge would be ejected when the gun is fired.

Now - if the gun was fired to test it - because the user was unsure if it worked or how effective is was - then it is highly unlikely the user would fire it in a hotel room where it might be heard and/or cause damage. In the unlikely event that the gun WAS fired in the htoel room and was not heard - the user would immediately dispense with the ejected shells - not leave them lying on a chair. Again - if the gun was fired in the hotel room - where is the evidence of lead shot? Wht only cartridges?

Much more likely is the scenario whereby the user takes the gun somewhere remote and tests it there. In that scenario the user is unlikely to be returnning to the hotel and therefore cannot -carelessly or otherwise - leave the cartridges in the hotel. in the unlikley event that the used does intend to return to the hotel with the gun - he is hardly going to gather up the cartridges and take them with him.

If we are saying that the cartridges were actually shells - then the same applies except we are talking about bullets which would eject with the shells when fired. Where is there evidence of bullet damage in the hotel and would an unconfident user risk firing the gun in the hotel not knowing how loud it might sound and how much damage might be caused at close range?

Now think on - the police had the gun and ammo within almost 48 hours of the crime. So did whoever discarded the gun. It is much more likely that someone else fired that gun to get those shells/cartridges to plant evidence at an appropriate time if needed.

[Limehouse]

Hi BR,

I agree with the first part, but then why couldn't they have fallen out of Hanratty's bag and down the back of the chair when he stayed in the bed next to the chair? They don't necessarily have to be "planted".

KR,
Vic.

Hanratty had a suitcase or attachee case - not a bag. It is very difficult for things to roll out of such a case. Additionally - if they rolled down the back of the chair and lodged there - they would not have so easily rolled off the chair when Crocker tipped it forward during his inspection. Also - Juliana Galves stated that she found the scond cartridge by "running her hand over the chair and the cartridge was [B]on top of the chair[B] towards the back so they were not lodged down the back of the chair.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Julie. Really good points. I thought Ron"s illustration was very helpful too.

[RonIpstone]

I thought Ron"s illustration was very helpful too.

Hello Norma or Natalie,

Thank you, that's (or that"s as you would have it) very gracious.

Although it does not seem to have sunk in with some contributors on the forum that the spent cartridge cases are ejected when the gun is broken not when it is fired.

Ron

[babybird67]

hi Ron

a lot of logical and factual things have a problem of sinking in with some contributors...

[jimornot?]

Hello Norma or Natalie,

Thank you, that's (or that"s as you would have it) very gracious.

Although it does not seem to have sunk in with some contributors on the forum that the spent cartridge cases are ejected when the gun is broken not when it is fired.

Ron

hi Ron

presumably the gun is normally broken to reload it ? if so, any views on why only 2 cartridges were found?
all the best

viv

[jimornot?]

Hi Norma,

been out, no time to check through my cuttings, but I do remember the Sunday Express article. But I also remember seeing another much later article which I referred to in my earlier post. Will search for it when I can.

Graham

hi Graham and all

I know this was referred to (by you I think) on earlier postings in this thread - ages ago - but haven't been able to find it yet

interesting that the official lines from Hansard indicate in two places - para(?) 805 and just between reference 813 and 814 - that the priests indicated hanratty had not confessed

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1963/aug/02/james-hanratty-trial

the paras read

from Mr Brockway -

There is one fact which has deeply inclined me towards belief in Hanratty's innocence. Both the priests who saw him in the condemned cell are said by Hanratty's father to have told him that they were convinced that his son had not committed the murder. I would not be so impressed by this if Hanratty were not a Catholic. A Catholic believes that he will suffer eternal damnation if he dies without confessing sins which he has not confessed at previous confessions. I find it difficult to believe that Hanratty would have gone to the gallows declaring himself innocent if he were in fact guilty, when there is evidence that he sincerely accepted in his last hours the ministration of Catholic priests to whom he could have confessed in the presence of God.

and from a Mr Fletcher

I was impressed by the obvious sincerity of Hanratty's final message to his family and the testimony of the Roman Catholic priests who said that right until the last moment he had not confessed in the confessional and had asserted his innocence knowing that, even if he had confessed to those priests in order to obtain the benefit of spiritual absolution, that confession could never have been disclosed to anybody. The fact that he failed to do so and preferred to die a Roman Catholic protesting his innocence is, to my mind, a most striking fact.


it could mean, as was posted before, that Hanratty deluded himself into believing he hadn't done it or it could even mean he was actually innocent; we will all have our own take on this. Either way it seems most likely the Sunday Express story was not based on the truth

all the best

viv

[jimornot?]

re Priest


Found this

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Cassandra%3A+I+would+rather+his+familydidn%27tread+this..but+here+is+the...-a086251934

all the best

Viv