Bible John (General Discussion)

[barnflatwyngarde]

Stoddart comes across poorly from what I have read so far. Surely he should have been putting some of the points we have just made to Beattie when they spoke. I remarked earlier, I never trust writers who shower praise on a detective that has given them exclusive inside information on a cold case. (Martin Dillon who wrote the Shankill Butchers is a cautionary example of this.)

Stooddart says a suspect was identified 'immediately' yet we discover that two Moylan employees- neither of whom presumably match the description offered up by Jeannie- were being interviewed before McInnes ever entered the frame. So maybe Stoddart's choice of vocabulary is weak. Like HS I think the detail of McInnes' matching appearance, his marital status and his location could only have come to police attention through Smith and Murphy.

Hi cobalt,
In Episode 9 of the podcast "Bible John: Creation of a Serial Killer", Audrey Gillan says that a woman called Jessie, who sang in the Barrowland, was performing there on the Saturday after Helen's murder. Jessie gave Beattie and Valentine the name of a suspect who lived in the Hamilton area.
This information appears about 7 minutes into the podcast.

In episode 8 of the podcast we learn that in the early days of the Helen Puttock investigation a "Mrs Palka" gave the police the name of a man who was a regular at the Barrowland, who she presumably suspected.
Jimmy McInnes interviewed her, but there is no record of this interview in the case files.

We don't know if "Jessie and "Mrs Palka" are the same person, or whether we have two different people giving the names of two different suspects, or two people giving the same name of a suspect.

[cobalt]

Thanks Barn.

McInnes was clearly a solid suspect and the police moved pretty quickly to question him. So far, so good.

But there is so much missing as to how they became aware of him. I can't see how a singer at the Barrowland- 'Jessie'- would have much knowledge of his marital status or where he lived. The same applies to 'Mrs. Palka,' even if she had at some point danced with him. (We are assuming here that either or both of them were fingering McInnes.) And why did one or either alight upon McInnes given that the iconic Bible John portrait had not yet been produced? (I think there was an early photofit from the Jemima MacDonald murder on display in the Barrowland so maybe that was a factor.)

From the fragments available and Stoddart's opaque wording, 'He had been at the Barrowland, he had been at the Barrowland on the Thursday night' it seems McInnes was a fairly well known regular at the venue. Which would make it odd for him to go looking for a victim there a mere two months after the murder of Jemima MacDonald.

[barnflatwyngarde]

The following are my notes/impressions of chapters 7-10 of Charles Stoddart's book "Bible John: Search For a Sadist".

Chapter 7: Description of a Killer
Over 450 barbers were visited by police to see if anyone recognised the description of the killers hair, which is described as short, neat sandy/fair hair.
The lack of positive results from the barbers led Police to consider the possibility that the killer wore a hairpiece.
With regards to the killer's teeth, on page 85 we are told that "Obviously to check all dental records in Scotland would be out of the question."
We are entitled to ask why this was out of the question when hunting a serial killer.
Police did check the records of all dentists in Glasgow, but not dentists in the outlying areas of Glasgow, like Lanarkshire.
Joe Beattie had a plaster cast of the killers teeth made, and circulated to every dentist in Britain.
The killers suit appeared to be of a good quality, noticably better than the suits worn by most of the men who attended the Barrowland.
Jeannie was shown a series of military and regimental ties, to see if any matched the one worn by the killer, but with no luck.
We are told that Jeannie attended over 300 identification parades.

Chapter 8: Croiset the Clairvoyant
This chapter is particularly interesting as we find out just how much credence Joe Beattie, and indeed Stoddart gave to the musings of the Dutch clairvoyant Gerard Croiset. Croiset first entered the case when he was approached by Arnott McWhinnie of the Daily Record.

On page 96 Stoddart describes Croiset as "a truly incredible Dutchman."
It becomes clear as we go on that here Stoddart is mirroring the views of Joe Beattie himself.
On page 103 we are told that Croiset "Without prompting he drew pictures from his mind of the area where he thought Bible John might be found. Croiset thought the killer was still in Glasgow and when shown a map, indicated an area in the south west part of the city in the general direction of Govan".
On the same page we are told that "Without any prior knowledge he was able to describe Bible John's personality traits and personal details: his authoritarian capacity and similar characteristics".

One of the main features of the case is the belief of Joe Beattie that the killer lived south of the river.
The only reason that Beattie thought that the killer lived south of the river was based on the statements of Croiset..
Stoddart then goes on to say in regard to the killer living south of the river "that the fact that police did not find him there is no fault of Croiset's." (page 106)
Again on page 106 we are told that "Croiset's reputation acquired over twenty five years of assistance to the police makes his findings deserve respect".
On the same page we are told that Beattie's use of Croiset was "an innovation".

It seems astonishing that Beattie allowed the whole investigation in the hunt for a serial killer to be seriously influenced, and perhaps driven by the views of a "clairvoyant", and may reflect just how desperate Joe Beattie was.
Or it may indicate incompetence of a high degree.

Chapter 9: The Role of the Press
Joe Beattie and his team fed information regularly to the press, this was done on an official basis, not as informal leaks.
DCI George Haigh was the cooirdinator of all telephone enquiries, tip-offs, sightings and snippets of information.
By September 1970 the police had received in excess of 3,500 letters and phone calls.
Fifty pieces of information came from abroad, most of them from Germany.
This was "probably due" to the fact that Helen's husband George had been based in Germany with the army. (pg 113)
It is not known how "hard" these pieces of information relating to George Puttock were.

Joe Beattie asked Dr Robert Brittain, a Forensic Psychiatrist at the Douglas Inch Clinic in Glasgow, to compile a "word description" of the kind of man the police were looking for. Doctor Brittain had diagnosed other psychopathic killers.

Brittain's article "The Sadistic Murderer" was published in 1970 in "Medicine, Science and the Law, Volume 10 (4):10 Oct 1, 1970.

Joe Beattie said of Dr Brittain's report "We have never wanted to put the public into a panic, but we cannot exclude the possibility that this man may strike again. The psychiatrist's report underlines this. (pg 118)

Chapter 10: Where is Bible John?
Joe Beattie says that he is convinced that he never came face to face with Bible John. (pg 120)
Beattie emphaasises the fact that Jeannie spent over two hours in the company of the killer.
Beattie is of the opinion that the police missed the killer in the first two weeks of the investigation.
Here Beattie is presumably referring to the first two weeks of the Helen Puttock murder.
Joe Beattie thought that Bible John was intelligent and unmarried, but gave no clue as to his reasoning for these opinions. (pg122-123)

On page 137 Stoddart writes "Around the time when the enquiry was in full swing, police found a few suicide notes with the bodies of persons whose names were already known to them. One such story appeared in The Sunday Post of September 9, 1979, concerning a Lanarkshire man who committed suicide leaving a cryptic note which some police linked with the murders of ten years before". (pg 137-138)

John McInnes committed suicide in April 1980.

Stoddart's book was published in 1980 and runs to 138 pages, so this snippet of information regarding the suicide note of a "Lanarkshire man" literally appears on the last two pages of the book. Was this Beattie's way of ensuring that something relating the suicide of a Lanarkshire man was put in the public domain, albeit as a last minute entry in the book shortly after Beattie found out about John McInnes's suicide?

Of all the books I have read on Bible John, Stoddart's is the one which gives the most, even if most of what it gives leads to a lot of other questions which intrigue and frustrate in equal measure.
I have resisted the temptation to make too many comments on the book, and I hope that what I have published across these two posts will prove of interest to people and lead to discussion on these boards.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Thanks Barn.

McInnes was clearly a solid suspect and the police moved pretty quickly to question him. So far, so good.

But there is so much missing as to how they became aware of him. I can't see how a singer at the Barrowland- 'Jessie'- would have much knowledge of his marital status or where he lived. The same applies to 'Mrs. Palka,' even if she had at some point danced with him. (We are assuming here that either or both of them were fingering McInnes.) And why did one or either alight upon McInnes given that the iconic Bible John portrait had not yet been produced? (I think there was an early photofit from the Jemima MacDonald murder on display in the Barrowland so maybe that was a factor.)

From the fragments available and Stoddart's opaque wording, 'He had been at the Barrowland, he had been at the Barrowland on the Thursday night' it seems McInnes was a fairly well known regular at the venue. Which would make it odd for him to go looking for a victim there a mere two months after the murder of Jemima MacDonald.

Hi cobalt, yeah it's all very opaque.

With regard to "Jessie" and "Mrs Palka", their names come from Audrey Gillan's podcast.
We know that Gillan had access to police files regarding the case, although we don't know the range and breadth of these documents.
She also had access to the police officers who reinvestigated the case, so it appears that there is some factual basis to the statements made by "Jessie" and "Mrs Palka".

The early photofits were so generic as to be practically useless.
I attach a photo of Joe Beattie in what could be his office or the Incident Room, which I think illustrates this point.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Here's a better copy.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Cobalt/Barn

I’ve certainly no answer to what happened after his arrest with ID parades and Jeannie’s evidence as it’s certainly a mystery but might an explanation for what led up to the arrest was fairly simple - a Moylan’s card was found at the scene, police went to Moylan’s and spoke to staff there. Two of the staff were actually at Barrowland that night but they could probably alibi each other. Then either one or both mention seeing McInnes there and perhaps they knew that he was a regular? Was it their first time there or had they been before and seen him?

Maybe they told them that they had seen him talking to the singer ‘Jessie,’ if not that night (as he was with Helen) then a previous one. So the police questioned her and whatever she said added to the suspicion.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The following are my notes/impressions of chapters 7-10 of Charles Stoddart's book "Bible John: Search For a Sadist".

Chapter 7: Description of a Killer
Over 450 barbers were visited by police to see if anyone recognised the description of the killers hair, which is described as short, neat sandy/fair hair.
The lack of positive results from the barbers led Police to consider the possibility that the killer wore a hairpiece.
With regards to the killer's teeth, on page 85 we are told that "Obviously to check all dental records in Scotland would be out of the question."
We are entitled to ask why this was out of the question when hunting a serial killer.
Police did check the records of all dentists in Glasgow, but not dentists in the outlying areas of Glasgow, like Lanarkshire.
Joe Beattie had a plaster cast of the killers teeth made, and circulated to every dentist in Britain.
The killers suit appeared to be of a good quality, noticably better than the suits worn by most of the men who attended the Barrowland.
Jeannie was shown a series of military and regimental ties, to see if any matched the one worn by the killer, but with no luck.
We are told that Jeannie attended over 300 identification parades.

Chapter 8: Croiset the Clairvoyant
This chapter is particularly interesting as we find out just how much credence Joe Beattie, and indeed Stoddart gave to the musings of the Dutch clairvoyant Gerard Croiset. Croiset first entered the case when he was approached by Arnott McWhinnie of the Daily Record.

On page 96 Stoddart describes Croiset as "a truly incredible Dutchman."
It becomes clear as we go on that here Stoddart is mirroring the views of Joe Beattie himself.
On page 103 we are told that Croiset "Without prompting he drew pictures from his mind of the area where he thought Bible John might be found. Croiset thought the killer was still in Glasgow and when shown a map, indicated an area in the south west part of the city in the general direction of Govan".
On the same page we are told that "Without any prior knowledge he was able to describe Bible John's personality traits and personal details: his authoritarian capacity and similar characteristics".

One of the main features of the case is the belief of Joe Beattie that the killer lived south of the river.
The only reason that Beattie thought that the killer lived south of the river was based on the statements of Croiset..
Stoddart then goes on to say in regard to the killer living south of the river "that the fact that police did not find him there is no fault of Croiset's." (page 106)
Again on page 106 we are told that "Croiset's reputation acquired over twenty five years of assistance to the police makes his findings deserve respect".
On the same page we are told that Beattie's use of Croiset was "an innovation".

It seems astonishing that Beattie allowed the whole investigation in the hunt for a serial killer to be seriously influenced, and perhaps driven by the views of a "clairvoyant", and may reflect just how desperate Joe Beattie was.
Or it may indicate incompetence of a high degree.

Chapter 9: The Role of the Press
Joe Beattie and his team fed information regularly to the press, this was done on an official basis, not as informal leaks.
DCI George Haigh was the cooirdinator of all telephone enquiries, tip-offs, sightings and snippets of information.
By September 1970 the police had received in excess of 3,500 letters and phone calls.
Fifty pieces of information came from abroad, most of them from Germany.
This was "probably due" to the fact that Helen's husband George had been based in Germany with the army. (pg 113)
It is not known how "hard" these pieces of information relating to George Puttock were.

Joe Beattie asked Dr Robert Brittain, a Forensic Psychiatrist at the Douglas Inch Clinic in Glasgow, to compile a "word description" of the kind of man the police were looking for. Doctor Brittain had diagnosed other psychopathic killers.

Brittain's article "The Sadistic Murderer" was published in 1970 in "Medicine, Science and the Law, Volume 10 (4):10 Oct 1, 1970.

Joe Beattie said of Dr Brittain's report "We have never wanted to put the public into a panic, but we cannot exclude the possibility that this man may strike again. The psychiatrist's report underlines this. (pg 118)

Chapter 10: Where is Bible John?
Joe Beattie says that he is convinced that he never came face to face with Bible John. (pg 120)
Beattie emphaasises the fact that Jeannie spent over two hours in the company of the killer.
Beattie is of the opinion that the police missed the killer in the first two weeks of the investigation.
Here Beattie is presumably referring to the first two weeks of the Helen Puttock murder.
Joe Beattie thought that Bible John was intelligent and unmarried, but gave no clue as to his reasoning for these opinions. (pg122-123)

On page 137 Stoddart writes "Around the time when the enquiry was in full swing, police found a few suicide notes with the bodies of persons whose names were already known to them. One such story appeared in The Sunday Post of September 9, 1979, concerning a Lanarkshire man who committed suicide leaving a cryptic note which some police linked with the murders of ten years before". (pg 137-138)

John McInnes committed suicide in April 1980.

Stoddart's book was published in 1980 and runs to 138 pages, so this snippet of information regarding the suicide note of a "Lanarkshire man" literally appears on the last two pages of the book. Was this Beattie's way of ensuring that something relating the suicide of a Lanarkshire man was put in the public domain, albeit as a last minute entry in the book shortly after Beattie found out about John McInnes's suicide?

Of all the books I have read on Bible John, Stoddart's is the one which gives the most, even if most of what it gives leads to a lot of other questions which intrigue and frustrate in equal measure.
I have resisted the temptation to make too many comments on the book, and I hope that what I have published across these two posts will prove of interest to people and lead to discussion on these boards.

Thanks for post this Barn. Interesting stuff.

[barnflatwyngarde]

On pages 137-138 of Stoddart's book, the following words appear:
"Around the time when the enquiry was in full swing, police found a few suicide notes with the bodies of persons whose names were already known to them. One such story appeared in The Sunday Post of September 9, 1979, concerning a Lanarkshire man who committed suicide leaving a cryptic note which some police linked with the murders of ten years before". (pg 137-138)

I managed to track down a copy of The Sunday Post of September 9, 1979, and on the front page appear the words:

"If he was still alive Bible John would be in his late thirties.
It is now thought he committed suicide in Lanarkshire after leaving a cryptic note implicating himself in the murders.
Around the time of the murders there were a few suicide notes from people claiming to be the murderer.
Each was checked out. Only one fitted exactly. Times and places were correct.
The writer was an only child - "A mammy's boy" as one policeman says. A religious fanatic."

Later in the same article, we read:

"Police were able to build a good picture of the man they were hunting.
Psychologists provided a description of his likely appearance and mannerisms.
Everything fitted with the Lanarkshire suicide.
But as it can never be proved that he was Bible John, his identity may never be released."

The article comes without a byline, so we don't know who the author was, and it is difficult to know just what to make of it, however, the article does make clear that the suspect came from Lanarkshire and not Glasgow.

[Herlock Sholmes]

“…a few suicide notes“

That’s intriguing on its own Barn. I can only assume that they were for different family members or a friend? What wouldn’t we give to read them?

[cobalt]

I wouldn't make much of the Sunday Post article- I'm not surprised no one wanted to put their name to it. It reads like an attempt by the police to draw a line under their failed enquiry by reassuring the public that BJ is no longer a threat.

The assumed killer left a 'cryptic note' which was hardly necessary: he could either have left no note (perhaps to spare his family) or just made a clear confession. I'm also unclear as to how 'the dates and places' match up; unless he kept a diary how would the police know where he was at any particular time? And the term 'mammy's boy' seems like it has been borrowed from Jeannie's impression of the man in the taxi. The 'religious fanatic' tag comes courtesy of the tabloid press. In short, along with the dubious claim that the man can't be named, the whole article is an exercise in fobbing off the reader with stereotypes.

Three points of interest though.

1.The article suggests the suspected BJ who committed suicide was known to the police in some way or another. So if they could piece together the times and places of this religious fanatic who was a mammy's boy after his death, why did they not do so when he was on their radar?

2. The article suggests that the suicide took place at the height of the enquiry which would at least explain why murders of this type ceased.

3. The suicide clearly cannot refer to John McInnes who was still alive at the time the article was published. Yet the Lanarkshire connection which pops up regularly in this case is referenced here as well.

[barnflatwyngarde]

I wouldn't make much of the Sunday Post article- I'm not surprised no one wanted to put their name to it. It reads like an attempt by the police to draw a line under their failed enquiry by reassuring the public that BJ is no longer a threat.

The assumed killer left a 'cryptic note' which was hardly necessary: he could either have left no note (perhaps to spare his family) or just made a clear confession. I'm also unclear as to how 'the dates and places' match up; unless he kept a diary how would the police know where he was at any particular time? And the term 'mammy's boy' seems like it has been borrowed from Jeannie's impression of the man in the taxi. The 'religious fanatic' tag comes courtesy of the tabloid press. In short, along with the dubious claim that the man can't be named, the whole article is an exercise in fobbing off the reader with stereotypes.

Three points of interest though.

1.The article suggests the suspected BJ who committed suicide was known to the police in some way or another. So if they could piece together the times and places of this religious fanatic who was a mammy's boy after his death, why did they not do so when he was on their radar?

2. The article suggests that the suicide took place at the height of the enquiry which would at least explain why murders of this type ceased.

3. The suicide clearly cannot refer to John McInnes who was still alive at the time the article was published. Yet the Lanarkshire connection which pops up regularly in this case is referenced here as well.

I tend to agree with you cobalt.
The interesting thing to my mind is that we are getting tantalising hints that the murders have a Lanarkshire connection.
The "facts" presented in the Sunday Post article clearly don't point towards McInnes; he was still alive in 1979 and he was not an only child.

The Stoddart book is clearly based on the reminiscences of Joe Beattie, so why does a Lanarkshire connection suddenly raise its head in the last two pages of the book?

I confess that I simply do not know!