Bible John (General Discussion)

[barnflatwyngarde]

I think this could be important. It probably has been said before. If it has apologies.

I believe Pat Dockers handbag was found in the River Dart. Looking at Google maps this appears miles from the murder scene at Carmichael Place. Doesn't look like its easily reached by public transport. Strong suggestion the murderer had a car which I know many including Herlock have suggested could have been possible.

NW

Hi NW, I have just posted this info to Ms D (Apologies, I hadn't seen your post)

It is a 350 yard walk from 27 Carmichael Place to 105 Carmichael Place which is the shortest route to White Cart Water.

Not very far at all , if that is where the killer dumped some of Helen's possessions.

I attach a map which hopefully helps.


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/27...oASAFQAw%3D%3D

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Ms D, if you venture forth this weekend, it is a 350 yard walk from 27 Carmichael Place to 105 Carmichael Place which is the shortest route to White Cart Water.

Not very far at all , if that is where the killer dumped some of Helen's possessions.

Oh! That's a little underwhelming in terms of an on topic stroll.

Maybe I'll have a look at it and then just have a general wander along the river.

Or there's always pizza in Oro!!

[barnflatwyngarde]

Sorry guys, I should have said this in my earlier posts.

The River Cart as talked about in the murders, is known as the Cart locally, although the full name of the river is the White Cart Water.

The River Cart is a tributary of the River Clyde and is miles away from the scene of the murder.

The photograph of the police divers searching the water is clearly the White Cart Water, the bridge is easily identified as being the same bridge in many photos of the White Cart Water.

[cobalt]

The comments about White Cart Water have sparked a few thoughts on my part.

First if all, I do not think a killer with a car nearby would walk almost a quarter of a mile to dump a handbag. He could have flung it over a wall or shoved it in the boot of his car. Given that the two later victims were not driven by private car to their place of death I think it is fair to assume that Patricia Docker was no different. As for her clothes, they might well have been dumped in the river and floated beyond reach before the search team arrived. Remember the recent case in England where a woman's body lay undiscovered in a local river for weeks despite intensive high tech searching under media spotlight.

Was the Patricia Docker murder the reason for Glasgow CID thinking there might be a BJ lead somewhere south of the River Clyde? Patricia's body was found a couple of miles from Castlemilk, the very place that one of the Puttock sisters' dancing companions said he came from. Castlemilk was a new build post-war housing scheme to the south of Glasgow with a population of around 30,000 and....just one pub! So, not hard to see why any man from that area might fancy a night out on the town. Did Beattie and co. think that Jeannie Langford had mixed up the Castlemilk information, or maybe even that BJ was friends with an associate who lived in Castlemilk?

It might explain police interest in the late night ferry from the Broomielaw where they suspected BJ might have crossed the river to go south after leaving the late night bus. BJ was also reasonably close to the same ferry if he'd murdered Jemima MacDonald in Bridgeton.

Given Jeannie's recollection, it does not seem that the two Johns knew each other. CJ had remarked to Jeannie that BJ was getting on his nerves a bit. But Castlemilk John's failure to help the police, even anonymously, speaks little to his character. There must have been some 'lad chat' when the women went to powder their noses or the men went for a pee. He could have added valuable information but stayed silent, and is most likely now dead. But, if what he said was the truth, then there could not have been so many slaters by profession aged between 25-35 in the Castlemilk area, possibly called John. How much effort did the police make to track him down?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Was Castlemilk John a Slater? I don’t recall reading that Cobalt (that doesn’t mean that it hasn’t been said though)

I tend to favour that he was in a car for the Docker murder but I could be wrong and I certainly wouldn’t be confident enough to bet money on it. It just seems strange that he would have gone to the trouble of stripping her, gathering her clothes and then dumping them in the river 400 or so yards away. Pat wouldn’t have stripped of her own free will under those circumstances.

A strange point is that I saw something online of a former Detective (I think it was Johnstone but I can’t find the clip) asking for people to come forward (this was a modern day clip) He mentions Castlemilk John as Bible John’s ‘mate.’ I couldn’t (and still can’t) see how anyone involved in the case can come to the conclusion that the two John’s knew each other because I’ve never seen it even hinted at anywhere

[New Waterloo]

Hello All. Thanks Barnflat for putting me right. I have lead you all up the garden path. Sorry. I was looking at the River cart where it joins the Clyde. still hopefully opened a bit more discussion.

Cheers all

NW

[New Waterloo]

Now I have the correct river section it would be nice to know where on that stretch of river the handbag was found although there is the issue of the bag moving with tidal/water flows. Perhaps if it was near the bridge in the excellent photo then maybe thrown from that bridge if it can be identified and from there a route across the river taken by BJ.

There seems to be a footbridge heading South across White Cart Water very close to the murder scene. The other bridge at Langside Drive would be via a long footpath (if the offenders on foot) easier in a car.

NW

[barnflatwyngarde]

Now I have the correct river section it would be nice to know where on that stretch of river the handbag was found although there is the issue of the bag moving with tidal/water flows. Perhaps if it was near the bridge in the excellent photo then maybe thrown from that bridge if it can be identified and from there a route across the river taken by BJ.

There seems to be a footbridge heading South across White Cart Water very close to the murder scene. The other bridge at Langside Drive would be via a long footpath (if the offenders on foot) easier in a car.

NW

Great points NW.

You are correct that there is a small footbridge at the end of Carmichael Place that the killer could conceivably have used to dispose of Patricia's clothing.

I was intrigued as to why the photograph showed the police searching that specific area of water, there could of course have been several police underwater units searching other areas of the river, although I don't think that the police underwater unit would have been very large.

I think that the bridge in the photo is the one on Clarkston Road. (photo attached)

If they were searching near that particular bridge, I think that it may have been because they thought that the killer had a car.

[New Waterloo]

I found a picture of Millbrae bridge, the one at Langside Avenue on Google. It also looks very similar. I am really rubbish at posting photos. Any chance of you trying for me please Barnflat. I will keep trying

Thank you

NW

[New Waterloo]

Dont know if this has worked NW

Millbrae Bridge Langside Avenue

[barnflatwyngarde]

Dont know if this has worked NW

Millbrae Bridge Langside Avenue

Hi NW,
If you look at the police divers photograph, you'll notice that there is a square block of stone on the lower arch of the bridge.

There doesn't seem to be a similar block on the Millbrae Bridge.

I have attached a better image of Millbrae bridge which shows this more clearly.

I would just like to say that I'm greatly impressed with the efforts, finds and conjectures that folk are contributing to this fascinating case.

[Herlock Sholmes]

My knowledge of bridges is about as extensive as my knowledge of the ‘music’ of Girls Aloud Barn but i’m about as certain as I can be that those are two different bridges. Not just the square block that you pointed out but the gap between the bricks that form the arch and the horizontal ones above looks too great to me. Plus, the bricks that form the arch appear to have an outer row of narrower bricks. Unless the bridge has had some extensive reworking over the ensuing years?

[cobalt]

That Castlemilk John was a slater by profession can be found in reports from the Daily Record, BBC Scotland and STV just to name the most obvious. The source of that information must be from police speaking to the media, whether on or off the record, in light of Jeannie Langford's testimony.

CJ had no reason to lie abut this in the Barrowland back in 1969 - even if he was just a 'roofer' - and it is hardly an attempt to give a man some elevated status. A slater would simply be considered as a worthy working class man, no more, no less. I assume he was telling the truth about being a slater, and also that he was living in Castlemilk, south of Glasgow. He had no inclination that a woman would be murdered later in the evening so apart from concealing any marital status he might have had, it would have been simpler just to stick to the truth. Most liars do.

Why did CJ not come forward later? It's hard to say. His connection to BJ seems to have simply been a casual meeting on the night of Helen Puttock's death. But perhaps the police have evidence of BJ and CJ being more closely linked hence the interest in the ferry crossing. But as George Puttock, Helen's husband later said, why was no photofit of Castlemilk John ever placed before the public? He could have been flushed out surely.

[Herlock Sholmes]

That Castlemilk John was a slater by profession can be found in reports from the Daily Record, BBC Scotland and STV just to name the most obvious. The source of that information must be from police speaking to the media, whether on or off the record, in light of Jeannie Langford's testimony.

Cheers Cobalt. Strange isn’t it…all the stuff I’ve read on the case but that had never registered with me.

[barnflatwyngarde]

There is a fascinating comment made in Charles Stoddart's book "Bible John: Search for a Sadist".

"These early enquiries produced a suspect immediately: he fitted the description given by Jeannie, he had been at the Barrowland on the Thursday, he was married but was known to frequent the dancing. Someone told the police of his identity and that he was believed to live in Stonehouse.
On the Sunday preparations were made for an identitification parade to be held at 11.00am but wasn't held until 5.00pm: the subject had moved from Stonehouse and the police chased around Lanarkshire all day until he was finally traced at Newarthill near Airdrie. But when he was paraded, Jeannie failed to identify anyone on the parade."
(Page 73) (my emphasis)

In episode 8 of Audrey Gillan's podcast the reinvestgation team mention that in "the first few days of the Helen Puttock investigation." A Mrs Palka gave the police a name of a suspect who she knew who was a regular at the Barrowland. Jimmy McInnes interviewed her, but there is no record of the interview in the case files.

Are these two incidents describing the same man?