Bible John (General Discussion)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Here is photograph of police examing the exact location of Helen Puttuck's body.

What is noticeable is just how close to the wall it was.
In fact it looks like the body was right below a window.

Another element of risky behaviour among many examples of risky behaviour.

I also attach the link to the video that the photograph is in.
The date of the video is January 1996.

Interesting bit at the end of the video where Superintendent Louis Munn says that they are following a "definite line of enquiry" re the murder of Helen Puttock, and that a report will submitted to the Procurator Fiscal.

This presumably refers to the seeking of permission to exhume John McInnes.

One thing to notice, is the emphasis that Superintendant Munn places on the word "definite."

https://stvfootagesales.tv/content/bible-john-suspect/

Cheers Barn

[cobalt]

The references to Helen Puttock being amenable to romantic approaches came from police sources. These would presumably have emerged from interviews of regular patrons at the Barrowland Ballroom. I read somewhere (apologies for being vague) that two persons claimed they had been intimate with Helen prior to her death.

However I am in full agreement with ms diddles on Helen and Jeannie's likely assessment of BJ, one which precluded lustful entanglement. A paid taxi home would have been the real prize. Helen Puttock seems to have been confident in her ability to handle such situations and no doubt was, like many Glasgow women, well skilled in the art of the 'brush off.' Glasgow etiquette of that era included the phrase: 'Drap deid, ya scunner!'

The HS theory that has Helen disembarking from the taxi in South Street and then being pursued to Earl Street makes more sense than her running away from nearer her apartment. But William Hannah was taken by police to recreate his route and drop off point the following morning so the location where Helen left the cab must be well established. That location is always given as Earl Street, although no one seems to have pin pointed exactly where.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Friends of mine refuse to allow me to navigate anywhere as I have no sense of direction and am dangerous with a map in my hand so be patient and beware because I’ve been using Google Earth. But….a couple of points/questions.

If MacDonald did actually see Helen running along South Street at around 1.00 (which AG describes as around 200 yards from where she was found) then it looks like she would have turned into Harland Street, gone under the railway bridge and then turned left into Earl Street. It would then have been around 100 yard walk to number 95. So..around 200 yards.

Therefore if AG’s ‘around 200 yards’ was correct and if my notes are accurate when I wrote “AG came out onto South Street at around the spot where MacDonald saw the woman in the ocelot coat,” (and there’s a definite chance that they might not be) then somehow Audrey Gillan knew the spot where MacDonald had possibly/probably seen Helen running? Next..

Now, if you go down the alley at the side of number 95 Earl Street it looks like, in those days, that a person could have walked, walk in front of the embankment, from Harland Street along to Balmoral Street (both ends are now closed off)

In my old notes from episode 9 I wrote “AG asks, if HP got to the railway embankment why didn’t she head home 8 doors away? Instead she went in the opposite direction. Further along in that direction was Harland Cottages. Her friend Jean O’Donnell lived at number 11 and had been at the Barrowland with her that night.”

Harland Cottages are the other side of the embankment accessible only from South Street so how could she have got to them without going right to Harland Street, turning right, then right again in to South Street. Again this relies on the accuracy of my notes but if AG is suggesting that Helen reached the embankment and then moved in the direction of Harland Cottages and away from her home at what point is she suggesting that Helen reached the embankment? Another way of putting it, if I’m not being clear, is that she appears to be suggesting that Helen got to the embankment yards away from number 95 in the direction of her home but she headed in the direction of number 95 or where she ended up.

[Herlock Sholmes]

A description of what Bible John was wearing….short suede boots, a brown suit with three buttons on the front, a blue shirt, and a dark tie with three red stripes across it.

https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=1e7101d6c772e40c&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C9BKJA_enGB704GB704&hl=en-GB&sxsrf=ADLYWIJVBwkAjv0FHWSjT2EDmWUSPmyQZw:1722716863732&q=man+wearing+scots+guards+tie&udm=2&fbs=AEQNm0Aa4sjWe7Rqy32pFwRj0UkWd8nbOJfsBGGB5IQQO6L3J7pRxUp2pI1mXV9fBsfh39KRvAkf_RbLmqO8b2Na6CPIL2LfB40iMkaTVa1lR-W5Yx-XPEBtftdFKXlYZhuEWVBrENSwf7uuoeGmcDzq1ncIEiiTrkHuFXdsa7MAm_pxBE2wVaz-WRzq4UMFchO3ZbH3hDQ_rZom8bUBIvdPi5_EXPtvvg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwidjti11NmHAxXEYEEAHeNwH-QQtKgLegQIHhAB&biw=1024&bih=1247&dpr=2#vhid=k08OgFIPscN_AM&vssid=mosaic

It’s not too difficult to see how someone remembering back to the previous evening, and after not paying particularly close attention to a tie at the time, might have just noticed the three main red stripes on the tie above. It’s a Scot’s Guards tie. John Irvine McInnes was in the Scot’s Guards.

When he was discharged from the army in 1959 a fellow soldier called MacDonald bumped into him around a year later and McInnes was wearing his regimental tie.

[New Waterloo]

Hi Herlock. Very good. Surely that really is more than a coincidence. Of course there can be many ties with red stripes but maybe another part of the jigsaw.

Of course if its a Scot's Guards tie and its being worn by somebody who was in the Scots Guards (McInnes) then it would seem to suggest that he was not planning a murder that evening, the tie would be too identifying.

Of course (same old really) personality/alcohol/opportunity play into this but it certainly seems to be adding weight to McInnes being BJ. He certainly had significant issues according to the blogg.

I suppose many think that several murders by the same offender makes them a serial killer, well yes in the exact meaning of the term I suppose but maybe an unstable person killing at opportunist moments without planning.

NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

Friends of mine refuse to allow me to navigate anywhere as I have no sense of direction and am dangerous with a map in my hand so be patient and beware because I’ve been using Google Earth. But….a couple of points/questions.

If MacDonald did actually see Helen running along South Street at around 1.00 (which AG describes as around 200 yards from where she was found) then it looks like she would have turned into Harland Street, gone under the railway bridge and then turned left into Earl Street. It would then have been around 100 yard walk to number 95. So..around 200 yards.

Therefore if AG’s ‘around 200 yards’ was correct and if my notes are accurate when I wrote “AG came out onto South Street at around the spot where MacDonald saw the woman in the ocelot coat,” (and there’s a definite chance that they might not be) then somehow Audrey Gillan knew the spot where MacDonald had possibly/probably seen Helen running? Next..

Now, if you go down the alley at the side of number 95 Earl Street it looks like, in those days, that a person could have walked, walk in front of the embankment, from Harland Street along to Balmoral Street (both ends are now closed off)

In my old notes from episode 9 I wrote “AG asks, if HP got to the railway embankment why didn’t she head home 8 doors away? Instead she went in the opposite direction. Further along in that direction was Harland Cottages. Her friend Jean O’Donnell lived at number 11 and had been at the Barrowland with her that night.”

Harland Cottages are the other side of the embankment accessible only from South Street so how could she have got to them without going right to Harland Street, turning right, then right again in to South Street. Again this relies on the accuracy of my notes but if AG is suggesting that Helen reached the embankment and then moved in the direction of Harland Cottages and away from her home at what point is she suggesting that Helen reached the embankment? Another way of putting it, if I’m not being clear, is that she appears to be suggesting that Helen got to the embankment yards away from number 95 in the direction of her home but she headed in the direction of number 95 or where she ended up.

The emboldened part should read - going left to Harland Street, turning right, then left into South Street which is where Harland Cottages are still located.

[Ms Diddles]

Of course if its a Scot's Guards tie and its being worn by somebody who was in the Scots Guards (McInnes) then it would seem to suggest that he was not planning a murder that evening, the tie would be too identifying.

Agree!

To be honest all of BJ's reported behaviour that night (hanging out with Jeannie and Castlemilk John, the cigarette machine argument, taxi journey with Jeannie) does not sound to me like someone keeping a low profile because they are planning to commit murder that night.

[Ms Diddles]

The emboldened part should read - going left to Harland Street, turning right, then left into South Street which is where Harland Cottages are still located.

Yeah, cheers Herlock!

I tried to read your post early Sunday morning after I'd been out late, but had to give up as the intricate directions made my head hurt!!!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yeah, cheers Herlock!

I tried to read your post early Sunday morning after I'd been out late, but had to give up as the intricate directions made my head hurt!!!

Im still wondering if my original notes were inaccurate because I don’t really get what Audrey Gillan was saying…so maybe it’s not actually what she said? I’ll soon find out though.

[Ms Diddles]

Im still wondering if my original notes were inaccurate because I don’t really get what Audrey Gillan was saying…so maybe it’s not actually what she said? I’ll soon find out though.

Well, I know those streets but I couldn't quite get my head around it.

To be fair it was late and I'd been imbibing, so it was likely just me.

Hopefully it will make sense when you've re-listened to the podcast.

[cobalt]

I think we are over complicating matters. We need to know where Helen Puttock was dropped off by the taxi. If we cannot confirm that, then speculation is the most we can aspire to.

As a taxi driver I once had a passenger who wished to be dropped off short of his street. The reason was that his wife assumed he was at a local club, but he had instead decided to chance his amorous arm in a town a few miles distant. Not with any success it seemed, but I complied with his wish since his wife would have been suspicious of a diesel taxi chuntering outside their marital home. That is life.

However I can't see why Helen Puttock would have been shy about admitting she took a taxi home. Either she did not want to announce her home address to BJ, or the taxi driver screwed up and she decided it was quicker to walk home. In short, I can't see why she was in South Street. I really doubt the validity of the sighting.

[barnflatwyngarde]

A description of what Bible John was wearing….short suede boots, a brown suit with three buttons on the front, a blue shirt, and a dark tie with three red stripes across it.

https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=1e7101d6c772e40c&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C9B KJA_enGB704GB704&hl=en-GB&sxsrf=ADLYWIJVBwkAjv0FHWSjT2EDmWUSPmyQZw:17227 1 6863732&q=man+wearing+scots+guards+tie&udm=2&fbs=A EQNm0Aa4sjWe7Rqy32pFwRj0UkWd8nbOJfsBGGB5IQQO6L3J7p RxUp2pI1mXV9fBsfh39KRvAkf_RbLmqO8b2Na6CPIL2LfB40iM kaTVa1lR-W5Yx-XPEBtftdFKXlYZhuEWVBrENSwf7uuoeGmcDzq1ncIEiiTrkHuF Xdsa7MAm_pxBE2wVaz-WRzq4UMFchO3ZbH3hDQ_rZom8bUBIvdPi5_EXPtvvg&sa=X&ve d=2ahUKEwidjti11NmHAxXEYEEAHeNwH-QQtKgLegQIHhAB&biw=1024&bih=1247&dpr=2#vhid=k08OgF IPscN_AM&vssid=mosaic

It’s not too difficult to see how someone remembering back to the previous evening, and after not paying particularly close attention to a tie at the time, might have just noticed the three main red stripes on the tie above. It’s a Scot’s Guards tie. John Irvine McInnes was in the Scot’s Guards.

When he was discharged from the army in 1959 a fellow soldier called MacDonald bumped into him around a year later and McInnes was wearing his regimental tie.

Hi Herlock,
On page 161 of "Power in the Blood" by Donald Simpson is the passage:
"Then there was the tie that ‘Bible John’ had been wearing that night; Jeannie described it in detail. ‘It was a dark blue tie with a thin red stripe with a small white motif, a military or university tie.” Whereas McInnes had been described as habitually wearing a military tie — his Scots Guards tie — which has a broad red and blue stripe."

Does this description match with your illustration?
To my untutored eye it looks different.

Of course, like much in this case it all depends on what "version" of stated facts or statements we choose to believe.

I've nearly finished Audrey Gillan's podcast, this time taking copious notes, and should have it all typed up in a day or two.

My God there's a lot of good stuff in there, especially episode 8.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,
On page 161 of "Power in the Blood" by Donald Simpson is the passage:
"Then there was the tie that ‘Bible John’ had been wearing that night; Jeannie described it in detail. ‘It was a dark blue tie with a thin red stripe with a small white motif, a military or university tie.” Whereas McInnes had been described as habitually wearing a military tie — his Scots Guards tie — which has a broad red and blue stripe."

Does this description match with your illustration?
To my untutored eye it looks different.

Of course, like much in this case it all depends on what "version" of stated facts or statements we choose to believe.

I've nearly finished Audrey Gillan's podcast, this time taking copious notes, and should have it all typed up in a day or two.

My God there's a lot of good stuff in there, especially episode 8.

Hi Barn,

The description certainly does particularly match up with the Scots Guard tie. As you say, it’s so difficult to pin down which information is accurate. I’m up to number 5 in my podcast re-listen.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Here is a photo of John McInnes at Stonehouse Primary School.

According to the description given by Audrey Gillan, and the description of his location in the school photo website, McInnes is in the middle row, third from the left.
Note the prominent ears, which match the prominent ears in the photo of McInnes in his army uniform.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You’d have thought that the McInness family might have had more photographs of John available. We need one where we can see his teeth.