Bible John (General Discussion)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Do you know, I have seen your avatar for all these years and never made the connection before!

Some mystery solver I am!!

I wonder if I’m the only person who has drawn his own avatar.

[Ms Diddles]

Ms D, my guess would probably be that it's the Gorbals.
The deprivation is very noticeable, and the council paid very little attention to the Gorbals, until they decided to raze it to the ground.
Also there are some fine old churches in that area of Glasgow. If not the Gorbals, possibly Bridgeton?

Yes, it's usually the Gorbals in the old pictures isn't it?!

It's funny how it was one of the most notorious parts of Glasgow (No Mean City and all that) and now it's one of the most desirable parts of the city in terms of social housing.

[Ms Diddles]

I wonder if I’m the only person who has drawn his own avatar.

I think you probably are, Herlock!

It's a very good Jeremy Brett.

I seem to remember Milchman UK (or Robin Asquith as I always thought of him) had a kind of portrait, but whether he did it himself or not, I dunno!

[cobalt]

''I have no idea why they went to the back court, I can only assume it was for a kiss and cuddle.
If Helen had been attacked in the close itself, the echo would have reverberated throughout the building.
The close was in effect a huge echo chamber, so I assume that she went through the close to the back court willingly.''

That's a reasonable way to look at the situation. Maybe we have to take on board the police information which indicated that Helen Puttock could be free with her favours; but if that was the case, it surely applied to times when she and her husband were living apart. It is hard to imagine her being so consumed with passion for BJ and his biblical jazz routine when she has a husband and two children awaiting her return 100 yards along the road.

It's possible she had a hand placed over her mouth and was bundled through to the backyard, from where she made a temporary escape up the embankment, before being subdued.

That's why I think the taxi driver's statement is important. Did he consider them as a couple, or did he expect BJ to travel on somewhere else to be dropped off? Linked to this, what did Helen Puttock think BJ's travel plans were after she left the cab? She could hardly have invited him back home (whether some sexual congress took place or not) so she must have had some inclination of what he intended to do next.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Scenario - Helen gets dropped off a distance from 95 Earl Street with BJ. (Maybe she didn’t expect him to get out of the taxi too if she thought that he was just seeing her home?) Apparently, according to George Puttock, the taxi driver saw BJ get out of the car after paying and he had the impression of some kind of disagreement between the two passengers. Maybe Helen ran off with BJ following? It’s hard to imagine her running very quickly in heels so he would have had little problem keeping her in sight. Taxi driver William MacDonald sees her running (around 200 yards from where he was found according to him) Maybe BJ was just a few yards behind her but he didn’t notice him dressed in darker clothing compared to Helen’s black and white coat? Helen doesn’t try to flag down the taxi because she’s only 300 yards from home and believes that she’ll get there. Maybe she just saw this guy as an annoying, boring, straight-laced kind of person who she just wanted to lose? To her he didn’t look like the ‘killer’ type so she wasn’t in terror.

It’s dark, she can hear him a distance behind her, so she decides to duck down the side of number 95 because she doesn’t want him following her all the way home to make a scene? Maybe by turning down that alleyway she thinks that BJ might think that it’s where she lives and that he wouldn’t want to deal with an irate husband but he followed her down there. She’s hiding, keeping quiet. He catches her by surprise. Perhaps at first he’s not violent, perhaps it was a case of “what’s wrong, I’m only being friendly?” but by now Helen is more scared and she bolts for the embankment. It’s not a very high embankment and BJ catches her easily and they struggle. He walks her back to the close with his hand over her mouth where he strangles her. As he’s doing it she grabs at his face and he bites her wrist.

That’s only 5 ‘maybe’s’ and a couple of ‘perhaps’s.

[New Waterloo]

Hello Herlock,

Very plausible. Your suggestion is very good, not fanciful and easy to visualize. Can we say exactly (well as near as we can where Helen was dropped and if this works geographically so to speak. I guess you have had a look at this. I am also re listening to the Pod cast as I think Jean recalls the taxi drivers route and there is some info about what the taxi driver said about the dropping off.

Although I think Jean says that she didn't want BJ to know where she lived exactly when she was dropped as she was a bit wary of him. That does seem a bit odd as she then leaves him in the taxi with her sister.

Or have I imagined that. I am sure I either read that or it was in the Pod Cast.

NW

[Ms Diddles]

''I have no idea why they went to the back court, I can only assume it was for a kiss and cuddle.
If Helen had been attacked in the close itself, the echo would have reverberated throughout the building.
The close was in effect a huge echo chamber, so I assume that she went through the close to the back court willingly.''

That's a reasonable way to look at the situation. Maybe we have to take on board the police information which indicated that Helen Puttock could be free with her favours; but if that was the case, it surely applied to times when she and her husband were living apart. It is hard to imagine her being so consumed with passion for BJ and his biblical jazz routine when she has a husband and two children awaiting her return 100 yards along the road.

Yes, that's how I see it.

I can't recall details about the insinuation that Helen was a bit free and easy.

That may of course have been the case, but there's an equal chance that this was just the generalised misogyny of the era, and certain assumptions being made about a married mother kicking up her heels in a place like the Barrowlands.

From Jeannie's report of the conversation in the taxi, there's nothing there to indicate that passion was on the cards.

TBH all that "you know what happens to the adulterous woman?" chat combined with the argument at the cigarette machine and BJ's pissiness about offering Jeannie a cigarette sounds more like a cold shower to me!

It was apparent that Helen and Jeannie were impressed by BJ's impeccable manners at the dancing, but it sounds like they regarded him more as a bit of an eccentric oddball who was good for a free taxi home.

I just don't see Helen being so consumed with passion for this petulant weirdo that she would consider making out within spitting distance of her husband, kids, parents and all the neighbours who could recognise her.


It's possible she had a hand placed over her mouth and was bundled through to the backyard, from where she made a temporary escape up the embankment, before being subdued.

That's why I think the taxi driver's statement is important. Did he consider them as a couple, or did he expect BJ to travel on somewhere else to be dropped off? Linked to this, what did Helen Puttock think BJ's travel plans were after she left the cab? She could hardly have invited him back home (whether some sexual congress took place or not) so she must have had some inclination of what he intended to do next.

Absolutely!

She would presumably have asked him where he stayed at some point during the evening (standard Glasgow chat!) so would presumably have formed an impression of how he would be getting home.

It's a shame she didn't share this information with Jeannie!

[Ms Diddles]

Hello Herlock,

Very plausible. Your suggestion is very good, not fanciful and easy to visualize. Can we say exactly (well as near as we can where Helen was dropped and if this works geographically so to speak. I guess you have had a look at this. I am also re listening to the Pod cast as I think Jean recalls the taxi drivers route and there is some info about what the taxi driver said about the dropping off.

Although I think Jean says that she didn't want BJ to know where she lived exactly when she was dropped as she was a bit wary of him. That does seem a bit odd as she then leaves him in the taxi with her sister.

Or have I imagined that. I am sure I either read that or it was in the Pod Cast.

NW

Hi NW!

That rings a bell with me too.

[Ms Diddles]

Scenario - Helen gets dropped off a distance from 95 Earl Street with BJ. (Maybe she didn’t expect him to get out of the taxi too if she thought that he was just seeing her home?) Apparently, according to George Puttock, the taxi driver saw BJ get out of the car after paying and he had the impression of some kind of disagreement between the two passengers. Maybe Helen ran off with BJ following? It’s hard to imagine her running very quickly in heels so he would have had little problem keeping her in sight. Taxi driver William MacDonald sees her running (around 200 yards from where he was found according to him) Maybe BJ was just a few yards behind her but he didn’t notice him dressed in darker clothing compared to Helen’s black and white coat? Helen doesn’t try to flag down the taxi because she’s only 300 yards from home and believes that she’ll get there. Maybe she just saw this guy as an annoying, boring, straight-laced kind of person who she just wanted to lose? To her he didn’t look like the ‘killer’ type so she wasn’t in terror.

I think this makes good sense.

I'm inclined to think that the feisty Helen probably thought BJ was nothing she couldn't handle, and was more irritated and perhaps wary than truly scared (hence the lack of screaming).

For me it's a stretch to think that the taxi driver would fail to see a man pursuing the lady in the ocelot coat if he was wearing dark clothes.

Also as a general thing, you'd likely be surprised at how fast and confidently women who are used to wearing high heels can move in them.

It’s dark, she can hear him a distance behind her, so she decides to duck down the side of number 95 because she doesn’t want him following her all the way home to make a scene? Maybe by turning down that alleyway she thinks that BJ might think that it’s where she lives and that he wouldn’t want to deal with an irate husband but he followed her down there. She’s hiding, keeping quiet. He catches her by surprise. Perhaps at first he’s not violent, perhaps it was a case of “what’s wrong, I’m only being friendly?” but by now Helen is more scared and she bolts for the embankment. It’s not a very high embankment and BJ catches her easily and they struggle. He walks her back to the close with his hand over her mouth where he strangles her. As he’s doing it she grabs at his face and he bites her wrist.

That’s only 5 ‘maybe’s’ and a couple of ‘perhaps’s.

It's a perfectly reasonable scenario.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Yes, it's usually the Gorbals in the old pictures isn't it?!

It's funny how it was one of the most notorious parts of Glasgow (No Mean City and all that) and now it's one of the most desirable parts of the city in terms of social housing.

Hi Ms D.
Is this the church in the photo?

The four spires look as if the crosses at the top have been removed, but to me it looks like a pretty good match.
The slats at the side look the same, and the circles above the main entrance look the same.

The church in the photograph is in Old Rutherglen Road in Hutchesontown, which is in effect, the Gorbals.

I attach the photo of the kids playing for comparison.

[Ms Diddles]

I think you might have nailed it!

Thanks Barn!

I had been googlimg images of old Glasgow churches but couldn't find anything that closely resembled the photograph.

Nice work!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hello Herlock,

Very plausible. Your suggestion is very good, not fanciful and easy to visualize. Can we say exactly (well as near as we can where Helen was dropped and if this works geographically so to speak. I guess you have had a look at this. I am also re listening to the Pod cast as I think Jean recalls the taxi drivers route and there is some info about what the taxi driver said about the dropping off.

Although I think Jean says that she didn't want BJ to know where she lived exactly when she was dropped as she was a bit wary of him. That does seem a bit odd as she then leaves him in the taxi with her sister.

Or have I imagined that. I am sure I either read that or it was in the Pod Cast.

NW

Hi NW,

I can’t recall anything being written or said about the location that Helen was dropped off unless I’ve forgotten it (which is always a possibility) Same goes for your suggestion about Jean although I might have heard something in the dim and distant. I’ll keep my ears open as I work my way through the podcasts.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It's a perfectly reasonable scenario.

Yes, the taxi driver not seeing the man is the least acceptable part. Unless the man was behind a parked vehicle as the taxi passed.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Ms D.
Is this the church in the photo?

The four spires look as if the crosses at the top have been removed, but to me it looks like a pretty good match.
The slats at the side look the same, and the circles above the main entrance look the same.

The church in the photograph is in Old Rutherglen Road in Hutchesontown, which is in effect, the Gorbals.

I attach the photo of the kids playing for comparison.

Well done Barn. It looks like the one to me.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Here is photograph of police examing the exact location of Helen Puttuck's body.

What is noticeable is just how close to the wall it was.
In fact it looks like the body was right below a window.

Another element of risky behaviour among many examples of risky behaviour.

I also attach the link to the video that the photograph is in.
The date of the video is January 1996.

Interesting bit at the end of the video where Superintendent Louis Munn says that they are following a "definite line of enquiry" re the murder of Helen Puttock, and that a report will submitted to the Procurator Fiscal.

This presumably refers to the seeking of permission to exhume John McInnes.

One thing to notice, is the emphasis that Superintendant Munn places on the word "definite."

https://stvfootagesales.tv/content/bible-john-suspect/