Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi

[Ms Diddles]

A couple of observations regarding the cigarette machine incident on the night Helen Puttock was murdered. I think they point away from John Templeton being the killer.

The Barrowland Ballroom was destroyed in a fire in 1958 and reopened in late 1960. As is often the case there were rumours of it being 'an insurance job' but these soon faded from public memory. Yet BJ, 10 years later, brings up this allegation in his heated disagreement with Barrowland staff. To me this suggests a person who was hanging around dance halls at the time of the fire and felt in some way related to the event. McInnes would have been 19 at the time of the fire and therefore very much within the age group who would be going out to the dancing.
Templeton on the other hand was aged only 14 at the time. Admittedly, Templeton might have become familiar with the rumour but it would hardly have registered very deeply at that age, not enough to employ it as a verbal weapon a decade later.

Interesting thoughts, Cobalt.

You make a very good point.

The only thing I would say to counter this would be that the reference to the fire / insurance job would be consistent with the "my dad says these places are dens of iniquity " statement.

Perhaps scathing comments about the Glasgow dance halls were a regular component of conversation in the Templeton household?

[Herlock Sholmes]

The point about the fire is a good one Cobalt. Templeton could have heard a rumour via older family or locals talking in shops etc but, although not conclusive (and you haven’t presented it as conclusive of course) it’s something that you would feel likelier to get picked up and recalled by someone a little older than Templeton would have been at the time. If we were doing a tick box exercise we would have to score that one in favour of McInnes I think.

Your second point is a very valid one too. Does Templeton sound like kind of guy that would risk ending up out on the pavement on his a**e after haranguing the manager and a bouncer. I bet there were a few men who could tell stories of run-ins with Barrowlands bouncers.

[cobalt]

A couple of observations regarding the cigarette machine incident on the night Helen Puttock was murdered. I think they point away from John Templeton being the killer.

The Barrowland Ballroom was destroyed in a fire in 1958 and reopened in late 1960. As is often the case there were rumours of it being 'an insurance job' but these soon faded from public memory. Yet BJ, 10 years later, brings up this allegation in his heated disagreement with Barrowland staff. To me this suggests a person who was hanging around dance halls at the time of the fire and felt in some way related to the event. McInnes would have been 19 at the time of the fire and therefore very much within the age group who would be going out to the dancing.
Templeton on the other hand was aged only 14 at the time. Admittedly, Templeton might have become familiar with the rumour but it would hardly have registered very deeply at that age, not enough to employ it as a verbal weapon a decade later. To me the allegation supports the belief that BJ, with his slightly out of fashion look, was nearer to 30 than a man in his mid 20s.

For the second point I am relying on Barn's personal impressions of John Templeton. Throwing out wild allegations of corruption with the risk of being forcibly ejected from the premises does not fit with the picture Barn has supplied to us of John Templeton, the Glasgow Library attendant. And I doubt that flashing a Glasgow Library ticket would carry much weight in the Barrowland.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I saw this and have to say I'm a bit gutted!

The Barrowlands facade is "a thing" here, and I love that it's totally old school.

Sometimes I hate "progress"!!!

I would imagine (hope!) that they would try to stay faithful to this design as it's so iconic and well loved.

I used to be able to see it out of my spare room window and would sometimes sit watching the lights with a g&t.

Hi Ms D,

We get a lot of change for changes sake these days. Some things are iconic and don’t need changing. I’m sure that the majority of those living locally would agree with you.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Herlock,

I saw this and have to say I'm a bit gutted!

The Barrowlands facade is "a thing" here, and I love that it's totally old school.

Sometimes I hate "progress"!!!

I would imagine (hope!) that they would try to stay faithful to this design as it's so iconic and well loved.

I used to be able to see it out of my spare room window and would sometimes sit watching the lights with a g&t.

[Herlock Sholmes]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czjk1gmrjwjo

[cobalt]

The directors might be uncertain about what line to take. We are in a new Trumpian culture in the west and directors don't want to be outside the zeitgeist in case it stymies their career.

Misogyny. Opening scene sees BJ and Fred West leering across at dancers in the Barrowland. A bit passe these days and might offend Trump who would not look out of place next to the pair of them.

No Mean City. Opening scene of Helen and Jeannie weaving their way into the Barrowland as a razor gang runs past shouting 'Tongs Ya Bass!' Cliched crap but Peaky Blinders shows there is an audience for this type of stuff.

Religious Mania. BJ crushes Tennents lager can displaying scantily dressed model as he reads his Bible, committed to cleansing the streets of Glasgow. Hardly new, and likely to offend Trump's voter base.

Police Procedural. Beattie and his assistant, a young Jim Taggart, work round the clock trying to nail their man as their own marriages take the strain. Problem here is they don't get their man.

Maybe the zeitgeist would be Traditional Values. Three women in failed marriages pay a terrible price.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock and all,

It sounds interesting but is clearly a long way off from happening if it ever does. One writer ruled out and no one else identified. The BBC declining to comment. Hardly reeks of canvassing for early support.

A significant difference and, I would imagine, difficulty for a Bible John drama from the others you mention is that there is no proven guilty person to concentrate upon.

Btw, I particularly liked White House Farm, the ITV drama about the Bamber case. Did enough for me to show Bamber's guilt but still left questions hanging.

Best regards,
OneRound

Hi OneRound,

I did wonder how they could do a drama on Bible John without mentioning McInnes who I suspect will still have living family members to consider but they clearly have an idea at least. Maybe they have a ‘McInnes-type’ figure? A ‘John McKinley’ or some such name. As you’ve pointed out though, they clearly aren’t finding it plain sailing to get this thing up and running. Big crime drama - you would have thought that directors would have been lining up for the job?

[OneRound]

I only saw it by pure chance. I wonder if anything will come of it? I don’t really see why not as we’ve had two dramas based on the Yorkshire Ripper, one on Denis Nilson, one on the Bamber case, Manhunt with Martin Clunes etc.

Hi Herlock and all,

It sounds interesting but is clearly a long way off from happening if it ever does. One writer ruled out and no one else identified. The BBC declining to comment. Hardly reeks of canvassing for early support.

A significant difference and, I would imagine, difficulty for a Bible John drama from the others you mention is that there is no proven guilty person to concentrate upon.

Btw, I particularly liked White House Farm, the ITV drama about the Bamber case. Did enough for me to show Bamber's guilt but still left questions hanging.

Best regards,
OneRound

[Herlock Sholmes]

Interesting, Herlock!

I'd not heard about this.

It sounds like it's just in the very early stages right now.

I only saw it by pure chance. I wonder if anything will come of it? I don’t really see why not as we’ve had two dramas based on the Yorkshire Ripper, one on Denis Nilson, one on the Bamber case, Manhunt with Martin Clunes etc.

[Ms Diddles]

I wasn’t aware of this.

https://deadline.com/2024/01/bible-j...es-1235705786/

Interesting, Herlock!

I'd not heard about this.

It sounds like it's just in the very early stages right now.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have been trying to find out a bit more about Moylands Furniture Store. To be honest I couldn't find a lot. It did however raise a question in my brain. To save me listening to all of the excellent Podcast again why was it that McInnes actually became such a strong suspect in the first instance. Was it just the card or the sketches/photofits. Presumably the two factors together. It seems a bit weak if we cant even put McInnes in the club that night even with the card found at the scene. (although I was thinking he fits the bill)

It is right what some have mentioned about witnesses. They are the key, but statements don't seem to have been looked at closely enough. It would be interesting to know what the two Moylands employees who were at the Barrowlands had to say when they were spoken to like were they aware that McInnes was in the club that night.

NW

Hi NW,

When the cold case investigation was ongoing the two detectives, McEwan and Hughes talked to Mickey Moylan who was McInnes’s boss. He told them that salesman called Thomas Murphy, who worked at his Wishaw shop, had been taken in to Partick Marine Station for questioning. We don’t know why but this does provide a Moylan’s link. Another of his employees, Leonard Smith, was put in front of Jeannie for potential identification. Smith said that it wasn’t a formal ID parade and that he was asked to show his teeth. Both of these men had been to a Glasgow furniture show on October 31st 1969 and afterwards they had gone for a drink at Sloane’s Bar before moving on to Barrowland. McInnes’s name apparently hadn’t been mentioned to them by Beattie though. Mickey Moylan’s couldn’t recall McInnes’s name ever being mentioned either.

[New Waterloo]

I have been trying to find out a bit more about Moylands Furniture Store. To be honest I couldn't find a lot. It did however raise a question in my brain. To save me listening to all of the excellent Podcast again why was it that McInnes actually became such a strong suspect in the first instance. Was it just the card or the sketches/photofits. Presumably the two factors together. It seems a bit weak if we cant even put McInnes in the club that night even with the card found at the scene. (although I was thinking he fits the bill)

It is right what some have mentioned about witnesses. They are the key, but statements don't seem to have been looked at closely enough. It would be interesting to know what the two Moylands employees who were at the Barrowlands had to say when they were spoken to like were they aware that McInnes was in the club that night.

NW

[Abby Normal]

thanks gents! ive done a little researching since my last post.

mcInnes is probably your man.
Templeton a close second.

the business card is too much of a coincidence.
and DNA science back then and the sample too sketchy to rule anyone out IMO.

It will be interesting to see if any more stuff comes out on templeton.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I wasn’t aware of this.

https://deadline.com/2024/01/bible-john-bbc-drama-series-1235705786/