Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi

[barnflatwyngarde]

I should be close to finishing the book tonight with a bit of luck. A question for you (or anyone) Barn. Helen Puttock went out with a red purse that night. On page 44 the author says that the disheveled man on the number 6 bus paid his fair from a red purse. This is hugely significant of course but I hadn’t seen it written anywhere else. I used the search function on the books that I have and found no mention of this. I can’t recall if it might have been mentioned on the podcast but I’d have thought that such an important fact would have stuck in my memory? Is it familiar to you..or anyone else?

Hi Herlock.

Re the red purse mentioned by Bavin-Mizzi in her new book.

On page 175 of "Dancing With the Devil" by Paul Harrison he says that Douglas Simpson in his book "Power in the Blood: Whatever Happened to Bible John" mentions the dishevelled man on the number six bus paying his fare with money from a red purse.

So the earliest reference to the red purse seems to be via Douglas Simpson.
I don't have a copy of Simpson's book so I'm not sure if he mentions a source for this information.

There has been been some good discourse about the case on this thread.
I'm happy about that, it seems to me that honest debate over name calling and protecting entrenched views wins every time.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just a post on McInnes that I put on the other thread.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/social-chat/other-mysteries/800518-another-piece-of-evidence-linking-john-mcinnes-to-the-bible-john-murders?p=838887#post838887

[rjpalmer]

rj,

The taxi driver's name is mentioned somewhere on these sites- I recall his surname was Hannah. He had only been working the taxis for a couple of months and one of the women became rather annoyed he was not taking the best route. His recollection of the time and place he dropped the group seems to tally with Jeannie Langford's statement and the police narrative.

Gillan identified the taxi driver as Alexander Hannah. But that's just it---that she he had to "identify" someone who should have been a key witness struck me as odd. For some reason, he had been marginalized.

[cobalt]

rj,

The taxi driver's name is mentioned somewhere on these sites- I recall his surname was Hannah. He had only been working the taxis for a couple of months and one of the women became rather annoyed he was not taking the best route. His recollection of the time and place he dropped the group seems to tally with Jeannie Langford's statement and the police narrative.

Helen Puttock's husband claimed that in later years he tracked down the taxi driver and Hannah confirmed his account, adding that after paying the fare BJ went over to Helen and there was sign of a disagreement. But nothing more than that.

I think the 1996 Cold Case detectives showed a photo of John McInnes to the taxi driver (there was page of 12 similar faces) and he immediately picked out McInnes as the passenger- albeit that was after about 25 years. However Jeannie Langford did not identify McInnes from the photo, merely remarking he looked similar. What we don't seem to know is whether both the taxi driver and Jeannie were given the opportunity to ID McInnes in a line up. Most commentators think Hannah, the taxi driver, was NOT asked to do this which seems very odd.

[Herlock Sholmes]

HS,

Thanks for your cogent replies.

The DNA link seems no more than conjecture. As for teeth missing, often Scots in the 1960s had teeth extracted before the age of 40 to save further dental costs as my parents did. Scots have possibly the worst teeth in the entire world: when I visited a dentist in China she looked in my mouth and gasped in disbelief. A missing tooth was, and probably still is, commonplace amongst otherwise healthy Scots.

I would take issue with the idea of The Majestic and the Barrowland being interchangeable as places to go and meet up with women. Patricia Docker seemed aware of this distinction and rather like pubs, there are certain ones we frequent and others to be avoided. We know that McInnes did go there (he reportedly admitted being there the night of the Puttock murder) and we even know that Tobin did as well. But not Templeton. So if the author can't place Templeton inside the Barrowland on the basis of friends or relatives confirming that he went there, then her argument seems thin.

I appreciate the limitations the author was working under - no access to police records and witnesses dying off - so her focus on DNA as a magic bullet will have to be scrutinised by those more versed in that area than me.

Templeton being nicknamed 'Bible John' was information supplied on this very site by Barn, who knew Templeton at least by sight and also some library staff who worked alongside him. So it is pretty reliable, I think.

I’d forgotten that Templeton being nicknamed Bible John came from Barn although I don’t know how I managed to forget it and I certainly accept that there was a difference between the Majestic and the Barrowland in that the Majestic was seen as a more respectable establishment. I also accept your point about the missing tooth Cobalt but I’d still put it as a plus point. Jeannie was quite specific about the location of a single missing tooth and so to find that Templeton had the same tooth missing is interesting although not a slam dunk.

[rjpalmer]

the taxi driver (who did exist obviously)

Perhaps he did exist, but even in Audrey Gillan's podcast he is a remarkably shadowy figure. One would think such an importance witness would be called by his name, such as George Hutchinson, or Mrs. Elizabeth Long, or Israel Schwartz. Gillan, if I recall, mention his name in passing, but he seems to be mainly absent.

Most accounts, even longish accounts, only refer to him as "the taxi driver."

[cobalt]

HS,

Thanks for your cogent replies.

The DNA link seems no more than conjecture. As for teeth missing, often Scots in the 1960s had teeth extracted before the age of 40 to save further dental costs as my parents did. Scots have possibly the worst teeth in the entire world: when I visited a dentist in China she looked in my mouth and gasped in disbelief. A missing tooth was, and probably still is, commonplace amongst otherwise healthy Scots.

I would take issue with the idea of The Majestic and the Barrowland being interchangeable as places to go and meet up with women. Patricia Docker seemed aware of this distinction and rather like pubs, there are certain ones we frequent and others to be avoided. We know that McInnes did go there (he reportedly admitted being there the night of the Puttock murder) and we even know that Tobin did as well. But not Templeton. So if the author can't place Templeton inside the Barrowland on the basis of friends or relatives confirming that he went there, then her argument seems thin.

I appreciate the limitations the author was working under - no access to police records and witnesses dying off - so her focus on DNA as a magic bullet will have to be scrutinised by those more versed in that area than me.

Templeton being nicknamed 'Bible John' was information supplied on this very site by Barn, who knew Templeton at least by sight and also some library staff who worked alongside him. So it is pretty reliable, I think.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think this book is selling Moonshine. Anyone who says they are '100% convinced' like this author, or like Wilson 'stakes his professional reputation' on a case like this is due a fair degree of scepticism. I am happy to provide some.

I agree that we should approach any theory with scepticism Cobalt although I don’t think that this author has overstated her case any more than most authors do when proposing a theory or a new suspect. Getting a bit ‘carried away’ is perhaps par for the course.

Has the author managed to establish a link between John Templeton's DNA (perhaps through family samples) and that which was found on the clothing of Helen Puttock?

No she hasn’t but she can’t do that without the backing of the authorities.

Even has she done so (which I suspect she has not) is that link any stronger than the DNA link established some years ago between John McInnes' relatives and said sample which proved inconclusive? If she has done none of these then her case is little more than scientific musing.

She has begun by speculating on the fact that the man with Helen Puttock might have given his real name away. John and Templeton. Then she’s found a John Templeton who matches certain criteria to an extent and who certainly looked like the Patterson painting and who happened to have a gap in his teeth at just the spot that Jeannie said that he did. Surely this makes this man of interest?

Has she ever been able to place John Templeton at the relevant dates inside the Barrowland Ballroom? In fact, did he ever in his life cross the door?

No she hasn’t, but he and his wife met in 1967 at the Majestic which is where Pat Docker told her parents that she was going the night that she was killed. The best that we can say is that if he went to the Majestic then it’s surely likely that he’d visited other dancehalls at some point?

Has she shown her photo of Templeton to bouncers, the taxi driver (who did exist obviously) and Jeannie Langford and asked for their verdict?

I’m unsure if the bouncers or the taxi driver are still around but I know that Jeannie Langford died a few years ago.

Has she been able to explain why the police interviewed this John Templeton (and who was nicknamed 'Bible John' at work for good measure) yet dismissed him from enquiries?

According to his wife June, when the police turned up, they asked if she lived with a John Templeton. She understood that the reason for the visit was because of the name and because he’d lived in Scotstoun.

Has she provided any supporting evidence of religious mania, or even a negative attitude towards women to support her demonization of Templeton?

No she hasn’t.

Has she explained why Templeton (did he have any criminal convictions?) suddenly stopped his killing spree at the grand old age of 24? (Most witnesses placed the killer in his late 20s or early 30s.)

Theres no mention or suggestion of convictions. There’s no suggestion as to why he might have stopped but we know that killers don’t always carry on. Alternatively can we be certain that there weren’t further victims at some point? And yes he does seem a little young but I don’t think unrealistically so.

The Bible John case is becoming a circus. We now have, depending on your preferred 'expert,' the following: young Tobin (who had no religious views) is prowling the Barrowland looking for his first victim but is jostled near the cigarette machine by McInnes (who might have quoted the bible given his background.) McInnes calls the manager whilst Castlemilk John butts in during the argument with the bouncers but it is Templeton (religious views unknown and with 'sandy' rather than 'red' hair) who ends up in the taxi with the two women. Peter Sutcliffe (who had links to Lanarkshire) was kerb crawling outside but thwarted when the taxi pulled up. He ends up in a punch up with Angus Sinclair, in his painter and decorator van, who was also on the prowl. That's about all the credence I can give to the Templeton theory unless I hear more detail from those who have digested it.

I wouldn’t call it a circus Cobalt any more than other cases with a few suspects and theories. These will always exist in unsolved cases.

After the murder of Helen Puttock both McInnes and Templeton (both nicknamed 'Bible John' by acquaintances) were interviewed and cleared from involvement. There has been a suggestion that McInnes was being protected because of his social contacts. Are we now to believe that Templeton was being protected the same way? Would a highly regarded police detective do this on the basis of freemasonry or the old pals' act? I can't see it.

I can’t recall where Templeton was said to have been nicknamed Bible John?

[cobalt]

I think this book is selling Moonshine. Anyone who says they are '100% convinced' like this author, or like Wilson 'stakes his professional reputation' on a case like this is due a fair degree of scepticism. I am happy to provide some.

Has the author managed to establish a link between John Templeton's DNA (perhaps through family samples) and that which was found on the clothing of Helen Puttock?

Even has she done so (which I suspect she has not) is that link any stronger than the DNA link established some years ago between John McInnes' relatives and said sample which proved inconclusive? If she has done none of these then her case is little more than scientific musing.

Has she ever been able to place John Templeton at the relevant dates inside the Barrowland Ballroom? In fact, did he ever in his life cross the door?

Has she shown her photo of Templeton to bouncers, the taxi driver (who did exist obviously) and Jeannie Langford and asked for their verdict?

Has she been able to explain why the police interviewed this John Templeton (and who was nicknamed 'Bible John' at work for good measure) yet dismissed him from enquiries?

Has she provided any supporting evidence of religious mania, or even a negative attitude towards women to support her demonization of Templeton?

Has she explained why Templeton (did he have any criminal convictions?) suddenly stopped his killing spree at the grand old age of 24? (Most witnesses placed the killer in his late 20s or early 30s.)

The Bible John case is becoming a circus. We now have, depending on your preferred 'expert,' the following: young Tobin (who had no religious views) is prowling the Barrowland looking for his first victim but is jostled near the cigarette machine by McInnes (who might have quoted the bible given his background.) McInnes calls the manager whilst Castlemilk John butts in during the argument with the bouncers but it is Templeton (religious views unknown and with 'sandy' rather than 'red' hair) who ends up in the taxi with the two women. Peter Sutcliffe (who had links to Lanarkshire) was kerb crawling outside but thwarted when the taxi pulled up. He ends up in a punch up with Angus Sinclair, in his painter and decorator van, who was also on the prowl. That's about all the credence I can give to the Templeton theory unless I hear more detail from those who have digested it.

After the murder of Helen Puttock both McInnes and Templeton (both nicknamed 'Bible John' by acquaintances) were interviewed and cleared from involvement. There has been a suggestion that McInnes was being protected because of his social contacts. Are we now to believe that Templeton was being protected the same way? Would a highly regarded police detective do this on the basis of freemasonry or the old pals' act? I can't see it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock, yes I remember that statement by George Puttock, but I can't remember where, I'll try and find it.
On page 91 of Paul Harrison's " Dancing With the Devil" is the comment in reference to the taxi driver, " He saw no act of violence between the pair, just a sense of annoyance from the man which he took to be a domestic quarrel."

But yes you're right, George Puttock did say that the taxi driver told him something different.

That explains it. I don’t have the Harrison book or the Stoddart one or the Samson one. None are available at the moment. I’m sy]ure that they’ll turn up for sale eventually.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Some having argued that the taxi driver never existed.

There was no such person as Bible John and Patricia Docker murder proves it - Scottish Daily Express

I noticed online that Audrey Gillan was asking if anyone knew who Nate Campbell is. It seems that he sets himself up as a ‘cold case expert’ but I don’t know if he’s any more qualified than anyone else.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Another part of the book that stood out was on page 43. Beattie said that Alexander Hannah told him that John actually had no money and took the taxi fair from Helen. Then George Puttock said that he tracked Hannah down and was told by him that John paid the taxi and ran after Helen and he “got hold of her but she was resisting him.”

I hadn’t heard this story before unless it had slipped my mind? Can anyone else remember hearing this?

Hi Herlock, yes I remember that statement by George Puttock, but I can't remember where, I'll try and find it.
On page 91 of Paul Harrison's " Dancing With the Devil" is the comment in reference to the taxi driver, " He saw no act of violence between the pair, just a sense of annoyance from the man which he took to be a domestic quarrel."

But yes you're right, George Puttock did say that the taxi driver told him something different.

[rjpalmer]

This is Paterson's painting "Simon," as mentioned in the above article.

[rjpalmer]

4. I’m also not totally convinced about the killer giving his real name in the taxi.

Some having argued that the taxi driver never existed.

There was no such person as Bible John and Patricia Docker murder proves it - Scottish Daily Express

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks for the links, Barn. I used to know a printer many years ago who owned and operated a linotype machine and showed me the basics of how it worked. They were really quite amazing machines--masterpieces of engineering.

Each to his or her own, but I still find it quite a stretch to believe that any printer would describe himself as working in a laboratory, any more than an auto mechanic or a skilled wood worker would, but I'll leave it at that.

Me too Roger. There could have been a bit of self-aggrandising going on though. Making himself sound like a scientist to impress maybe?