Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi

[cobalt]

Judging by the men's hairstyles (no sideburns and a fair few quiffs) the photo looks like it's from around 1964. I don't think there would have been many saxophonists still playing solo at the Barrowland in 1969. Maybe someone can date it better by examining the women's hairstyles and dresses.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As I was going through the bonus episode about Jemima MacDonald I got to the part where Audrey Gillan spoke to Jemima’s son Alan when he came to her flat. He bought his granddaughter Samantha with him. Samantha had been researching the case and showed Audrey a newspaper photo of the Barrowland during a packed night with the crowd watching a saxophonist (with an old fashioned microphone in front of him) She felt that Jemima was in the picture (Audrey said that the woman that she pointed to was 5 or 6 rows back) Audrey doesn’t really think it is her though. She says that next to her is a man that she thinks is Bible John. He’s wearing glasses but Samantha says that anyone can wear glasses as a disguise. I’d always wanted to see that photo so I’ve been looking.

I think that I’ve found the picture and I can see and woman who might resemble Jemima standing next to a man with glasses who does look much like Bible John to me. The couple are about a quarter of the way into the photo from the viewers right.

Nearer the stage but almost directly in front , also wearing glasses, is a man that looks more like the Bible John in the Patterson portrait though. I’m certainly not claiming that it is him though.

https://www.google.com/search?q=barrowland+dancing+band&sca_esv=e530de37feccd403&rlz=1C9BKJA_enGB704GB704&hl=en-GB&udm=2&biw=1024&bih=1242&sxsrf=AE3TifO2o-iapxbxswwVQEgceqp8Xe-iSg%3A1754605513501&ei=ySeVaOKqHs6uhbIP5q2ZyA4&oq=barrowland+dancing+band&gs_lp=EhJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWciF2JhcnJvd2xhbmQgZGFuY2luZyBiYW5kMggQABiiBBiJBTIIEAAYgAQYogQyCBAAGKIEGIkFMggQABiABBiiBDIIEAAYgAQYogRIxkpQ5wtY7UZwAXgAkAEAmAFKoAGAC6oBAjI0uAEDyAEA-AEBmAIYoALiCsICBxAjGCcYyQLCAgYQABgIGB7CAgUQABiABMICBBAAGB6YAwCIBgGSBwIyNKAHh1ayBwIyM7gH3QrCBwYzLjIwLjHIByU&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img#sv=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

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ok Barn I have another for you. It’s from episode 3 Jemima MacDonald. It happens at around 4.18 and two old guys are talking about the gangs that frequented the the Barrowland. I just can’t make out what they’re saying.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock, ah the wonderful and myriad forms of the Glasgow dialect!

1. The Revue Bar in the Barrowland was known as Geordie's Byre.

2. The word is "jivers".

3. What the lady says is "is this the place noo". It makes no sense and is just the strangled rhetoric of an ordinary working class Glasgow woman.

4. "I'd say that 50,000 people that came in here fitted his description".

I hope this helps.

I also attach a link to a site that gives some interesting info on the Barrowland.

https://thelucybrouwer.com/barrowland-ballroom/

Cheers Barn, I’ll make those amendments and hopefully go through episode 2 later today.

[barnflatwyngarde]

I managed to finish listening to episode one tonight. Queries…


1)I didn’t record the time but when AG was talking about the layout of the Barrowland she says…downstairs was Geordies ______ The word sounds like ‘byre.’

2) Around 10.20 AG’s dad is talking. He says- there were some fantastic _________

3) Around 15.5e - Is this the place now ________?

4) Around 16.06 - came in here put it as _______

Hi Herlock, ah the wonderful and myriad forms of the Glasgow dialect!

1. The Revue Bar in the Barrowland was known as Geordie's Byre.

2. The word is "jivers".

3. What the lady says is "is this the place noo". It makes no sense and is just the strangled rhetoric of an ordinary working class Glasgow woman.

4. "I'd say that 50,000 people that came in here fitted his description".

I hope this helps.

I also attach a link to a site that gives some interesting info on the Barrowland.

https://thelucybrouwer.com/barrowland-ballroom/

[Herlock Sholmes]

I managed to finish listening to episode one tonight. Queries…


1)I didn’t record the time but when AG was talking about the layout of the Barrowland she says…downstairs was Geordies ______ The word sounds like ‘byre.’

2) Around 10.20 AG’s dad is talking. He says- there were some fantastic _________

3) Around 15.5e - Is this the place now ________?

4) Around 16.06 - came in here put it as _______

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve made a transcript of the Bible John podcast. The problem is that the original is automatically generated and the Scottish accents have caused a bit of havoc. I intend to listen to each episode again with my transcript on screen so I can note the times of any problem parts so that our friendly neighbourhood Scottish accented posters can help with a ‘translation.’ As soon as I’ve gone through it all I can send anyone a pdf of it if they want to PM me their email address. I’ve made a start and I hope to get through the rest of episode one tomorrow with a bit of luck.

My favourite bit of transcript gobbledegook is Alvinist Sondahl-Gleish.

Did you get it?

Elphinstone Dalgleish.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I agree with both of you. I think that I’ve listened to it twice too and maybe a couple of the episodes three times but it’s impossible to remember all. A good and easily accessible transcript would help. You can’t just copy and paste it though. I had to use screenshots which is a hopeless method.

[Ms Diddles]

Hey Ms D, you must be reading my mail.

That's exactly what I'm going to do also.
I think that there's probably more there for us on a second visit.
The bonus episode with Jeannie Langford is probably the most in depth interview she has ever done.
There might be some treasure in there that we missed the first time.

Well, it might take me a while to get round to it as I'd quite like to listen to it in just one or two sittings for the sake of continuity (because of my rubbish memory!), so I really need a weekend without plans or distractions.

I agree there may well be stuff we missed last time, or could there be some stuff in there which is pertinent to Templeton as BJ (either for or against)?

It will be interesting to see.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Oh no! I'm getting the sense that I need to listen to those podcasts once again from start to finish.

I've listened to them twice already, but have such a rubbish memory that I've forgotten almost everything!

I think the last time I listened to them, I hadn't yet heard the name John Templeton, so it might be interesting to listen to them again in light of the new theory.

Hey Ms D, you must be reading my mail.

That's exactly what I'm going to do also.
I think that there's probably more there for us on a second visit.
The bonus episode with Jeannie Langford is probably the most in depth interview she has ever done.
There might be some treasure in there that we missed the first time.

[Ms Diddles]

Oh no! I'm getting the sense that I need to listen to those podcasts once again from start to finish.

I've listened to them twice already, but have such a rubbish memory that I've forgotten almost everything!

I think the last time I listened to them, I hadn't yet heard the name John Templeton, so it might be interesting to listen to them again in light of the new theory.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock, using my skills in Parliamo Glasgow to decipher what Jeannie Langford (the actress Elaine C Smith) says, I can confirm that the exact words spoken are:

"The one in the papers, just there, the Mcinnes guy, was more like Castlemilk John. I'd never look at a picture and say "That's him."

With regard to whether a photofit was ever done of Castlemilk John, apparently a photofit of him was compiled by the police and circulated.
An article in The Sunday Mail of 23 August 1970 stated that:

"Several men carry cards with the telephone number of Chief Inspector George Lloyd because they have been brought in so often for identification. Police stations are now being circulated with another photofit picture.
That of Castlemilk John, the man who was with Bible John at Barrowland on the night Mrs Puttock was murdered."

Thanks Barn. That last quote must have gone under my radar.

[barnflatwyngarde]

The transcript (baring in mind how unreliable it is) says that the missing part in your quote is ‘just there,’ NW. Which makes no sense of course. I’ll see if I can get around to having a listen although it would be better if either Barn or Ms D could do it, if they had time, as it’s undoubtedly Jeannie’s heavy accent that has caused the confusion.

But you’re right. Jeannie was saying that the photograph published in the newspaper - of McInnes in his army uniform - looked more like Castlemilk John than Bible John.

It’s an interesting question though, and one that was raised in the newspaper by George Puttock if I’m remembering correctly, why was no photo fit ever done of Castlemilk John? The more I think about it the stranger it seems. No doubt Jeannie could have provided just as good a description of him as she did of BJ. To be honest I can’t even recall a description of CJ.

Hi Herlock, using my skills in Parliamo Glasgow to decipher what Jeannie Langford (the actress Elaine C Smith) says, I can confirm that the exact words spoken are:

"The one in the papers, just there, the Mcinnes guy, was more like Castlemilk John. I'd never look at a picture and say "That's him."

With regard to whether a photofit was ever done of Castlemilk John, apparently a photofit of him was compiled by the police and circulated.
An article in The Sunday Mail of 23 August 1970 stated that:

"Several men carry cards with the telephone number of Chief Inspector George Lloyd because they have been brought in so often for identification. Police stations are now being circulated with another photofit picture.
That of Castlemilk John, the man who was with Bible John at Barrowland on the night Mrs Puttock was murdered."

[Herlock Sholmes]

At approx 26 minutes into the Bonus Episode of the BBC Podcast Jeannie (actor) says;

'The one in the papers just the other (confused word) the McInnes guy was more like Castlemilk John' then says 'Ide never look at a picture and say that's him' She goes on the explain that people change over the years.

None the less this has to be seen as significant doesn't it? Not sure which photo she saw of McInnes but presumably the one where he is in uniform. its not even a maybe!!

Although she says the years prevent her making a positive ID of BJ she feels confident enough to say Castlemilk looked like McInnes. That's what's she saying isn't she?

Very odd

NW

The transcript (baring in mind how unreliable it is) says that the missing part in your quote is ‘just there,’ NW. Which makes no sense of course. I’ll see if I can get around to having a listen although it would be better if either Barn or Ms D could do it, if they had time, as it’s undoubtedly Jeannie’s heavy accent that has caused the confusion.

But you’re right. Jeannie was saying that the photograph published in the newspaper - of McInnes in his army uniform - looked more like Castlemilk John than Bible John.

It’s an interesting question though, and one that was raised in the newspaper by George Puttock if I’m remembering correctly, why was no photo fit ever done of Castlemilk John? The more I think about it the stranger it seems. No doubt Jeannie could have provided just as good a description of him as she did of BJ. To be honest I can’t even recall a description of CJ.

[New Waterloo]

At approx 26 minutes into the Bonus Episode of the BBC Podcast Jeannie (actor) says;

'The one in the papers just the other (confused word) the McInnes guy was more like Castlemilk John' then says 'Ide never look at a picture and say that's him' She goes on the explain that people change over the years.

None the less this has to be seen as significant doesn't it? Not sure which photo she saw of McInnes but presumably the one where he is in uniform. its not even a maybe!!

Although she says the years prevent her making a positive ID of BJ she feels confident enough to say Castlemilk looked like McInnes. That's what's she saying isn't she?

Very odd

NW